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PALLAS

Neo-Prog • United Kingdom


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Pallas biography
Formed in Aberdeen, UK in 1980 (before that as "Rainbow") - Hiatus between 1987-1998 - Still active as of 2019

PALLAS is, after MARILLION, and along with IQ and PENDRAGON, one of the most important acts of the Eighties Progressive rebirth. This is an energetic and magnificent neo progressive band in the style of IQ/MARILLION but with more edge. Their music is centered on melodic hooks, loud sound and great voice. "The Sentinel" brings a tint of pop in a still elaborate progressive spectrum.

Scottish prog band PALLAS definitely have one of the longest gaps between albums on record. They released their first album, "The Sentinel" in 1984 and followed it up with "The Wedge" two years later. Their next album, "Beat the Drum" (72 minutes of music with epic accents, rock rhythms and style, and ballads full of feeling), did not show up for 13 years. It will be followed by the wonderful "The Cross And The Crucible" in 2001. This album features all the things prog fans are looking for - atmospheric keyboards, great guitar tunes and a well working rhythm section - and last but not least an vocalist with an very own style. Highly recommended to fans of neo Progressive style.

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PALLAS discography


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PALLAS top albums (CD, LP, MC, SACD, DVD-A, Digital Media Download)

3.54 | 289 ratings
The Sentinel
1984
3.03 | 146 ratings
The Wedge
1986
3.59 | 181 ratings
Beat The Drum
1998
3.58 | 232 ratings
The Cross & the Crucible
2001
3.97 | 320 ratings
The Dreams of Men
2005
3.29 | 178 ratings
XXV
2011
3.94 | 150 ratings
Wearewhoweare
2014
4.06 | 50 ratings
The Messenger
2023

PALLAS Live Albums (CD, LP, MC, SACD, DVD-A, Digital Media Download)

3.33 | 71 ratings
Arrive Alive
1981
3.64 | 14 ratings
Live Our Lives
2000
4.31 | 66 ratings
The Blinding Darkness
2003
3.19 | 23 ratings
The River Sessions 1
2005
3.39 | 21 ratings
The River Sessions 2
2005
3.29 | 7 ratings
Official Bootleg 27.01.06
2006
3.11 | 18 ratings
Moment To Moment
2009
4.00 | 3 ratings
Live At Loreley
2013
4.00 | 3 ratings
Live - Southampton 1986
2013
3.00 | 1 ratings
Themelios: Proto Pallas Live 1977-1979
2023
0.00 | 0 ratings
No Sleep 'til Rotherham
2023

PALLAS Videos (DVD, Blu-ray, VHS etc)

4.47 | 54 ratings
The Blinding Darkness
2003
3.82 | 17 ratings
Live from London
2005
3.46 | 18 ratings
Moment to Moment
2008
4.67 | 3 ratings
Live At Loreley II
2013

PALLAS Boxset & Compilations (CD, LP, MC, SACD, DVD-A, Digital Media Download)

3.00 | 23 ratings
Knightmoves To Wedge
1986
3.83 | 6 ratings
Sketches
1989
4.29 | 7 ratings
Mythopoeia
2002
3.75 | 4 ratings
The Sentinel Demos
2013
4.20 | 5 ratings
The Sentinel Rough Mixes
2013
4.75 | 4 ratings
The Arrive Alive Demos
2013
4.50 | 2 ratings
The Knight Moves Demos
2013
4.00 | 11 ratings
Courage - and Other Songs of War and Peace
2018
3.86 | 43 ratings
The Edge of Time
2019
3.92 | 7 ratings
An Alternative Arrive Alive
2020
0.00 | 0 ratings
Binary Lives Volume 1
2020
3.50 | 2 ratings
Fragments of the Sun
2020
3.00 | 3 ratings
Messages from the Past Present & Future: A Christmas Selection Box
2023
0.00 | 0 ratings
Messages: Prog Magazine Retrospective Sampler
2024
4.08 | 6 ratings
Eyes In The Night (The Recordings 1981 - 1986)
2024

PALLAS Official Singles, EPs, Fan Club & Promo (CD, EP/LP, MC, Digital Media Download)

3.00 | 4 ratings
The Pallas EP
1978
3.05 | 3 ratings
Arrive Alive
1982
3.50 | 2 ratings
Paris Is Burning
1983
4.00 | 4 ratings
Eyes In The Night (Arrive Alive)
1984
4.00 | 5 ratings
Shock Treatment
1984
4.00 | 2 ratings
Eyes In The Night / Shock Treatment
1984
3.00 | 3 ratings
Throwing Stones At The Wind
1985
3.80 | 6 ratings
The Knightmoves
1985
2.52 | 14 ratings
Monster
2010
3.00 | 7 ratings
Atlantean
2011
5.00 | 2 ratings
Set 2013
2013
5.00 | 1 ratings
Wearewhoweare Premix Megamix
2013
5.00 | 1 ratings
XXV Megamix
2013
5.00 | 1 ratings
Something In The Deep Karaoke Mix
2013
4.33 | 3 ratings
Itiswhatitis
2014
4.33 | 6 ratings
Christmas on the Edge of Time
2019
4.67 | 3 ratings
Fragments From The Edge Of Time
2020

PALLAS Reviews


Showing last 10 reviews only
 Beat The Drum by PALLAS album cover Studio Album, 1998
3.59 | 181 ratings

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Beat The Drum
Pallas Neo-Prog

Review by Rexorcist

3 stars So today, I start the day with this album and then Pride by Arena. The crazy thing is just how far the neo-prog tag can go in my explorations. Now if you have two hours, I want you to play both albums back-to-back, and tell me which one deserves the neo-prog tag more. Now, Arena's Pride is wild, inventive and accessible and proggy enough to work for its fifty-five minutes. This, however, is a prog-less, overdrawn, sappy and dramatic seventy-minute album that takes absolutely no time to do anything that's truly inventive. Every song is only basically enjoyable because the instrumentation and production are fine at the very best. But overall, this lacks any sense of imagination and might as well be adult contemporary rock with some decent rhythms. It's a shame. Pallas' first album and the live one actually took some time to be proggy. This is just sappy. I'm getting pretty sick of all the synth-driven pop rock and AOR bands from 80's Britain getting lumped in with true neo-prog.
 The Wedge by PALLAS album cover Studio Album, 1986
3.03 | 146 ratings

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The Wedge
Pallas Neo-Prog

Review by Rexorcist

3 stars God, can the people on RYM stop tagging these dorky AOR albums as neo-prog just because they had a couple other neo-prog albums before? This is absolutely NOT prog, and that's probably the lead reason why this album gets so much hate. Having said that, this doesn't mean it's that good of an album. Likely because the studio told them to focus on radio singles before, the band takes a drastically AOR turn on this album with new wave and prog pop influences molded in the neo-prog influences. And the vocal melodies are the only really good thing about the album. The album goes for dense compositions, but the instruments will often have conflicting melodies that make everything too busy. Add that the to the fact that the production's a little lo-fi and doesn't do the constant reverb any justice, this really makes everything about the album look like a cash grab. It doesn't even touch up neo-prog until six tracks in. You should probably avoid this one. It's very basic. About 58/100 where the last one, The Sentinel, was more of a 68.
 The Sentinel by PALLAS album cover Studio Album, 1984
3.54 | 289 ratings

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The Sentinel
Pallas Neo-Prog

Review by Rexorcist

3 stars Because of historical context, I decided to check out the original 1982 release with some parts of the Atlantis Suite cut out, and I would check out the full version if I was interested enough. And was I interested enough in the end? Mmm, not really. Now these are all pretty decent hard rock and neo-prog tunes on their own. There's energy, there's bombast and the band's obviously having fun with what they do. That last one is probably the most important thing. However, while the instrumentation is pretty good, the melodies aren't very special. On top of which, some of the synthesizers feel a bit noisy and awkward for neo-prog that centers on something like a futuristic Atlantis for a concept. The danger of having synths in the early stages of neo-prog is that the cheap tech may sound like some awkward independent bandcamp dungeon synth releases. I've made this point a little while ago on another album. Although the tunes and synths get better as the album goes along, there's way too much focus on the synths and not enough on the other instruments. I can barely hear the drums sometimes. So in the end, this was pretty standard rock to me, not very special, and not as interesting as it could've been. I don't see any reason to check out the hour-long complete version released eight years later. Slightly better than Pendragon's Kowtow.
 Eyes In The Night (The Recordings 1981 - 1986) by PALLAS album cover Boxset/Compilation, 2024
4.08 | 6 ratings

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Eyes In The Night (The Recordings 1981 - 1986)
Pallas Neo-Prog

Review by Warthur
Prog Reviewer

4 stars This expansive boxed set from Esoteric brings together on CD freshly spruced-up presentations of essentially everything that Palllas put out during the 1980s. The title is a bit of a misnomer - nothing on this box was recorded after 1985, the Wedge album having been held up for a while and then released with a total lack of publicity. (The included booklet has a hilarious anecdote about how the band appeared at an HMV store to promote the album - the chain being owned by EMI at the time - only for interested customers to discover that they didn't have it in stock, prompting them to go to the rival Virgin Megastore to buy it!) It's also worth noting that this doesn't include the band's absolutely earliest recorded work, the Pallas EP from the late 1970s - but the band have essentially disowned it.

Still, this is arguably Pallas at the moment they made their biggest cultural splash - a moment in the sun which they'd hoped would lead to the sort of success enjoyed by Marillion, their sometimes-rivals sometimes-comrades in the early days, but which was squandered, leading to a long hiatus until 1998's Beat the Drum. First up is their self-released live album Arrive Alive - finally issued on CD in its original running order, with none of the live tracks swapped out for studio demos! (The Arrive Alive single, the source of some of said demos, is appended as bonus tracks.) Having heard prior CD reissues of Arrive Alive, I can say that the album sounds better than it ever has - the original masters having, astonishingly, been unearthed after all this time to give the album a much-needed spring cleaning.

Naturally, you also get The Sentinel in here - in fact, two versions of it, one with the original UK mix and one with the updated mix released in the US. Both discs follow the original running order, with the UK mix disc including all of the Atlantis-related tracks cut from the original album and relegated to B-sides (along with Crown of Thorns, a lynchpin of early live shows) - presumably different mixes for the US were never prepared for those cuts.

The decision to restore the old running order takes a little fiddling if you want to listen to the Atlantis Suite in a rough approximation of its intended order, but playlists and programmable CD players make that easy these days, right? For my money, I find the most satisfactory order being starting off with the poppier, self-contained numbers (Shock Treatment, Cut and Run, and Eyes In the Night), moving on to Crown of Thorns as a palette-cleanser to ease into the proggier tracks, and then an Atlantis Suite running order of Rise and Fall, East West, March On Atlantis, Heart Attack, Atlantis, and Ark of Infinity.

Much fun and good-natured debate will surely be had as other listeners tweak their running orders - and bicker over which of the US and UK mixes they prefer - the band prefer the punchier US mix, but I actually like the gentler UK one somewhat better. With the box providing you all of the Sentinel-era studio recordings (with alternate mixes where those exist), it gives you everything you need to come to your own conclusions.

The band's first Alan Reed-fronted album - the aforementioned Wedge - is included, and as bonus tracks you also get the Knightmoves EP, including two demo tracks (Mad Machine and A Stitch In Time) released as a 7" bonus single with the original release of Knightmoves. On top of that, the included Blu-Ray offers both original singer Euan Lowson and Alan in action - Alan gets the lion's share of it in the form of the Live From London performance (originally broadcast on the same TV show which recorded memorable gigs by Twelfth Night and IQ), whilst the Eyes In the Night music video captures Euan mere months before he'd be cut from the band.

Both the Euan-fronted and Alan-fronted versions of the band have more to offer here, however! The "At the BBC and More" disc includes the Paris Is Burning single and B-side (The Hammer Falls) from early 1983, the band's triumphant 1983 set at the Reading Festival (from right before they jetted off to record The Sentinel with Eddy Offord), and a BBC session from early 1984 to promote The Sentinel. Taken all together, this offers an alternate spin on the band as they existed at the time of The Sentinel, with familiar material often given a punchier spin than attained on The Sentinel itself (in either mix).

On the Alan Reed side of the coin, the final CD here is a live show from Ritzy's in Aberdeen in late 1985 - chronologically it's the last material in this boxed set to be recorded, and it finds the band continuing the process they'd begun on Knightmoves and The Wedge of reconciling their commercially-inclined side (always a factor, as the Arrive Alive single demonstrates) and their proggier instincts. It's decent, and a nice chance to hear live cuts from The Wedge from shortly after the album was recorded... but maybe I detect a touch of weariness in the performance.

I could be wrong - maybe I'm just being influenced by knowing what was to come for the band. But it's hard not to listen to the band trying their best in a comparatively small venue here and not be reminded that, simultaneously, Marillion were conquering he world with Misplaced Childhood. Pallas had the next-best run with the major labels after Marillion of any of the early neo-prog bands; remember that it only took one major label release to derail Twelfth Night, Pendragon and IQ were only ever signed to arm's-length satellite labels with distribution deals rather than signing to a major label proper, and Solstice flat-out ignored the mainstream music industry altogether.

And yet where Marillion had thrived, Pallas floundered. This boxed set aptly demonstrates that this was not due to inherent shortcomings in their music as such - they might have never put out a true five-star classic in the 1980s, but there's potential here which, nourished sympathetically, could have flowered into something wonderful.

 The Wedge by PALLAS album cover Studio Album, 1986
3.03 | 146 ratings

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The Wedge
Pallas Neo-Prog

Review by Warthur
Prog Reviewer

3 stars Pallas' major label debut displayed a stark gulf between the more commercial-leaning tracks and their more prog-leaning pieces. With Euan Lowson out as frontman, Alan Reed installed in his place, and the band on borrowed time, The Wedge finds them trying to more smoothly blend the two approaches. Their commercial side seems to have the edge - and Alan Reed is able to switch from the prog turf of Abel Ganz, his former band, to the more arena rock sound of this album fairly deftly. You can absolutely imagine this incarnation of Pallas opening for Asia, and whether or not that's a good thing overall depends on your tolerance for Asia.

The running order puts the more poppy efforts like Dance Through the Fire and single release Throwing Stones At the Wind at the start, leading to slower and slightly more prog-inflected material bringing up the rear - an approach take on on some latter-day CD rereleases of The Sentinel, come to think of it. I can understand why prog purists might turn off the album after the first few songs - and those who exert patience might find that the album is too light on complexity and intricacy to win them over by the time the gentle closing track Just a Memory fades out. What it lacks in those categories, however, it makes up for in a sort of mid-1980s atmosphere which some (like me) may find cool and appealing, but others will find it doesn't emotionally connect with them.

On balance, I quite like it, but I can see why it was perhaps time to go on hiatus for a bit and reconvene with new purpose later on.

 Live from London by PALLAS album cover DVD/Video, 2005
3.82 | 17 ratings

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Live from London
Pallas Neo-Prog

Review by Warthur
Prog Reviewer

4 stars This was a concert that Pallas recorded for the Live From London television series in 1985 - a year when the show would feature a number of other neo-prog bands, including Twelfth Night (captured on their own Live From London release) and IQ (the recording being released as the Living Proof live album). It captures the band when they were just about to knuckle down to record their second album, The Wedge, which would prove to be the last flowering of their original run, the group sliding thereafter into a hiatus which lasted for around a decade.

Here, though, new frontman Alan Reed proves equally adept at the group's newer material (some Wedge pieces yet to be ironed out in the studio and selections from the Knightmoves EP which preceded this) and older stuff originally recorded with Euan Lowson, with the band deftly integrating their commercial-leaning and prog-leaning sides somewhat better than they had on The Sentinel. Alan gives every impression of being fully committed to what the band is doing, and if Pallas would falter later on, perhaps it was more down to EMI's chronic mishandling of their promotion than anything the band themselves lacked.

 The Knightmoves by PALLAS album cover Singles/EPs/Fan Club/Promo, 1985
3.80 | 6 ratings

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The Knightmoves
Pallas Neo-Prog

Review by Warthur
Prog Reviewer

4 stars Having parted ways with Euan Lowson following the muted reception of The Sentinel, Pallas picked up a new frontman in the form of Abel Ganz' singer Alan Reed and wasted little time in recording some demos, workshopping some songs, and turning out this EP, the first officially released output of the Reed-fronted band. One of the issues The Sentinel had was that there was something of a stark difference between the commercially-oriented tracks (Eyes In the Night, Shock Treatment, and Cut and Run) and the more prog-oriented material, and Knightmoves finds the band finding a compromise between the punch and power of the former and the intricacies of the latter to develop a new sound prior to attempting their second album, The Wedge.

As we now know, The Wedge would be their last gasp of the 1980s, with the band eventually entering hibernation before they reemerged with 1998's Beat the Drum. However, if you'd heard this at the time you might have thought there was every reason to be hopeful. Sanctuary is probably the best track, but the terser Stranger and Nightmare also have their charms, and in general the band seem to be doing a good job of developing and evolving their sound.

 Arrive Alive by PALLAS album cover Singles/EPs/Fan Club/Promo, 1982
3.05 | 3 ratings

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Arrive Alive
Pallas Neo-Prog

Review by Warthur
Prog Reviewer

3 stars Released in limited numbers on the tiny Granite Wax label, Pallas' Arrive Alive single is not to be confused with the live album of the same name, though the title track appears on some rereleases on that. The title track finds the band offering a more commercial sound than the original configuration of the live album showcases, working in a touch of new wave influence despire the band's live sound of the era being steeped in classic prog with a touch of bite reminiscent of the New Wave of British Heavy Metal movement. The B-side is a keyboard-oriented oddity which has been less widely compiled, though it has emerged as a bonus track on the Arrive Alive disc in Eyes In the Night boxed set, which compiles all of the band's 1980s output, along with the single mix of the title track, which the band refer to the rejected mix which somehow ended up being the one which most rereleases of the live album have included.
 The Messenger by PALLAS album cover Studio Album, 2023
4.06 | 50 ratings

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The Messenger
Pallas Neo-Prog

Review by kev rowland
Special Collaborator Prog Reviewer / Special Collaborator

4 stars I don't think there is much doubt in anyone's minds that one of the most important bands in the Eighties prog scene was Pallas, whose 'Arrive Alive' cassette in 1981 led to the two massively important albums 'The Sentinel' and 'The Wedge'. There was a significant gap until the band reformed to record 'Beat The Drum' in 1999, with founder Graeme Murray and long-time members Niall Matthewson, Ronnie Brown and ex-Abel Ganz singer Alan Reed being joined by drummer Colin Fraser. That line-up released three well-received albums and then Alan left to follow a solo career, being replaced by Paul Mackie, with whom Pallas released two more with the last being 2014's 'Wearewhoweare'. Then it went somewhat quiet on the Pallas front, and what no-one expected was a new album in 2024, a full fifty years since the band were first formed, and with Alan back at the front. Colin has departed, and the line-up is Alan Reed (lead and backing vocals), Niall Mathewson (guitars, percussion programming, vocals), Graeme Murray (bass, Taurus bass pedals, 12-string guitar, vocals), and Ronnie Brown (keyboards, percussion programming, vocals), back in the studio together for the first time since 2005's 'The Dreams of Men'.

One thing I noticed is that in the press release it states, "This is an album which repays countless listens" and that is definitely something I can attest to. The first time I played it I thought it was quite weak with not enough energy and passion, and then the second time it started to attract my attention as I realised just how many highs and lows there were with this and the way the music kept moving, swelling and descending, but it wasn't until the third time that I realised just how good this really is and that instead of being something I was unlikely to listen to again it is indeed a masterpiece ? it shows the need to play albums all the way through at least a couple of times before writing about them, something I know many reviewers tend not to do.

Lyrically this is fascinating as while 'The Sentinel' echoed the concerns of the cold war and the shadows it cast on all of us, 'The Messenger' finds the band reacting to the existential threats to the world we find ourselves in. From what we've done to the world, to the politics that shape it. I have always thought of Alan as Pallas' classic singer, possibly because I enjoyed his vocals with Abel Ganz and numerous works with Clive Nolan, but also as he was the singer in the Nineties when I was so heavily involved with the local prog scene. Strangely I never saw them in concert at the time, as I once left a venue before they were due to come onstage as I had fallen asleep during the previous band's set (I was working nights at the time) and was worried I would not be safe to drive the hundred miles home after Pallas had played, thinking I would catch them again, but I never did.

That is definitely my loss, as while back then they were a little more brash, here they have matured like a fine wine to create something which is full of nuances and embellishments here and there. Niall has taken more of a back seat, coming in to provide emphasis when the need is required, but often letting Graeme (especially with the pedals) and Ronnie to provide the backdrop for Alan to pitch his voice against. I am normally scathing of the use of programmed drums, but due to the style being employed they are not nearly as annoying as normal, and while they will need a "live" drummer to reproduce this onstage here it actually works quite well.

It is packed full of emotion, with multiple threads allowing Alan to play many parts, with the arrangements being massively complex yet also seeming quite simple with everything there for a purpose, with everything in its place. This is one heck of a return from four guys whose first album together was 'The Wedge' back in 1986. So when is the next one?

 The Pallas EP by PALLAS album cover Singles/EPs/Fan Club/Promo, 1978
3.00 | 4 ratings

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The Pallas EP
Pallas Neo-Prog

Review by siLLy puPPy
Special Collaborator PSIKE, JRF/Canterbury, P Metal, Eclectic

3 stars PALLAS is rightfully known as one of the earliest neo-prog bands that along with Marillion, IQ, Twelfth Night, Pendragon and Solstice ushered in the second wave of popular progressive rock in the early 1980s. What's not well known however is that the band formed as far back as 1974 in Aberdeen, Scotland and spent many years hitting the club circuit with the mission of keeping symphonic prog alive while the entire prog scene was clearly in decline. What's also interesting is that the band was first called Rainbow until Ritchie Blackmore left Deep Purple and assembled a band of the same name and achieved superstardom. After a brief stint as Pallas Anthene, the second part was dropped and has been simply PALLAS ever since.

While the first proper PALLAS album didn't emerge until 1984 way after its contemporaries jumped on the on the neo-prog bandwagon, the band did predate its competition and in fact released its debut EP simply titled THE PALLAS EP as early as 1978 however PALLAS was an entirely different band in those days with only founder Graeme Murray remaining by the time "The Sentinel" saw the light of day. THE PALLAS EP was a completely different beast than anything that came after and wouldn't even be recognizable as a PALLAS release even by the staunchest of followers. Pressed only once as a 7" vinyl recording with four tracks, this earliest offering from PALLAS found itself in a tug of war between Genesis inspired progressive rock and the contemporary sounds of punk rock. This hard to find musical artifact didn't even have a proper album cover and was simply released in a plain 45 styled sleeve with a simple THE PALLAS EP stamped on it.

One of the most unusual moments for any band that would be called neo-prog, PALLAS delivers a strange hybrid of punk rock simplicity with the progressive rock instrumentation such as a mellotron and 12-string guitar. Avoiding any time signature workouts, THE PALLAS EP focused more on simple punk rock songs with titles like "Reds Under The Beds" and "Thought Police" which displayed an anarchic sense of paranoia right out of the Sex Pistols or Crass playbook however the unusual electronic embellishments and high register vocal style of Peter Gabriel and early neo-prog clearly kept this in a world all its own. While Peter Hammill and Van der Graaf were flirting with punk rock crossover moments, their music provided a much more nuanced approach and greater finesse.

THE PALLAS EP is a crude first attempt at the recording process with a shoddy production and garage rock style songwriting. The four tracks on board do offer distinct melodic developments but stick to a short punchy 4-minute-ish running time. The lyrics almost sound like a parody with the opening "Reds Under The Beds" referring to the Red Scare of the Soviet Union and the ensuing paranoia the West had during the era about commies emerging from every nook and cranny ready to dethrone democracy in a McCarthy-esque coup d'erat. "Thought Police" is equally head scratching as it features a few prog moves such as an opening synth solo while three chord guitar punk banters on in accompaniment. The vocals are fairly bad with a laughable attempt to sound punk but failing to evoke all the proper attitude that made punk rock so effective.

"CUUK" offers a bit of bagpipe sounds to a less punk influenced sound and more reliant on hard rock. Vaguely sounding like what Big Country would conjure up in the 80s, the track was perhaps the most interesting musically speaking. The final "Wilmot Dovehouse MP" almost sounds like a tribute to The Who with its Pete Townsend guitar strumming technique but mixes the punkish guitar and bass moves with a trippy new wave styled keyboard heft. The vocals are in the style of an impish elf half-narrating and half-singing a storyline. The EP is one of a kind really and while not even remotely essential for lovers of the neo-prog style, it certainly is an interesting little curiosity that showcased a band experimenting with its stylistic approach before finally latching onto the 80s scene that would make them one of the top artists in the neo-prog second wave of progressive rock. Hard to find but available for a quick spin on the band's Bandcamp site. It's so bad that it's good in a Shaggs sorta way so i'll give it 3 stars.

Thanks to ProgLucky for the artist addition. and to Quinino for the last updates

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