malaise

I do indeed Barbs.

Trouble is he's out and about now and playing (and preying) on the sympathy of well-wishers.When this tidal wave emotion subsides (and he burns his bridges once more) we'll be back to square one.

He's talking about going to live with his mother in Canada(permanently)-can he do this? He has a criminal record (petty theft,and drugs) so I dont think so.

Gdub:

While I feel as much for the condition of your daughter's mother, her condition and the situation with Tony's friend are not mutually exclusive.  Pain, grief, quality of life, etc. are relative - are, as you suggest, a matter of "perspective."  Both situations are "bad" for the people involved in them.

One comment demands making, however.  Despite what we - i.e., "normal, well-adjusted" people - may think or feel, suicidal tendencies, and suicide itself, are not "selfish."  One can agree or disagree with the "morality" of it, but a suicidal person is not acting in a "selfish" way - at least vis-a-vis other people.  They are not "putting others through" something - and certainly not consciously or deliberately.

As has been discussed, suicidal people can, and most often do, live in a constant state of almost "electric" angst.  And they often have to find "good reason" to remain alive.  This is hardly a positive "quality of life," despite the fact that they may have five senses, mobility, active consciousness (one might even say "overly active"), etc.

Suicide itself is a "desperate" act that usually occurs quite suddenly: contrary to popular belief, it is not usually a "well-planned" act, but one committed almost "off-the-cuff," in a heightened state of anxiety that puts the person in an entirely different "space" in which they are literally incapable of making any rational decision.

I am not trying in any way to downplay your daughter's mother's condition.  I am only hoping to "correct" your notion of what it means to be suicidal, and that it is not, despite what it seems, a "selfish" act.

Peace.

Just try to remember: once you've really seen the edge, it's hard to take seriously the well-meaning words of people who are trying to help you.
For one thing, if you are at all intelligent, the clumsy and puerile fumblings of most psychological 'professionals' only deepen the conviction that you can't be helped.
Also (as maani mentioned), it often takes more than simply listing the things for which you should be thankful...especially when the act of appreciation itself provides a mirror to your own failings and inability to feel appropriate emotions.
Those who are truly in danger have probably lived near the edge long enough to develop sophisticated defenses, a self-preservation mechanism that conversely makes it difficult for any 'outsider' to influence them, even for the better.

Hi Tony,

There's not much else I can add that's not already been said.  I have no experience of a friend wishing to take his own life owing to drug dependance, so I'm not best placed to provide 'advice'.

My gut feeling is that you should keep him talking.  Very often, what many of us lack is not only someone to talk to, but someone who is actually genuinely interested in what we are saying.  That might sound trite, but it is a powerful tool.  Maybe your friend needs to answer his own questions in words; to rationalise his thoughts, and put things into perspective.

Rather than dispensing advice (I expect he's heard enough advice in his life!!) you could try to let him lead the discussions, by getting him to express how he's feeling/ what he wants to do, in a subtle way; steering him without asking too many questions...'reflect' his remarks to get him to think.

You can do this by using 3 tools:

Empathy; trying to understand how he feels at all times, by standing in his shoes.  A term often banded about, but very hard to do.

Congruence; making yourself approachable at all times, and consistant in your attitude toward him.

Non-Judgemental positive regard.  Let him see that you have his best interests at heart at all times, and don't judge him, even if he says the most outlandish things.

If you want to PM me at any time, feel free...you know you can.

James said:

"Just try to remember: once you've really seen the edge, it's hard to take seriously the well-meaning words of people who are trying to help you.  For one thing, if you are at all intelligent, the clumsy and puerile fumblings of most psychological 'professionals' only deepen the conviction that you can't be helped.  Also (as maani mentioned), it often takes more than simply listing the things for which you should be thankful...especially when the act of appreciation itself provides a mirror to your own failings and inability to feel appropriate emotions.  Those who are truly in danger have probably lived near the edge long enough to develop sophisticated defenses, a self-preservation mechanism that conversely makes it difficult for any 'outsider' to influence them, even for the better."

Thank you, James.  This shows true understanding, and cannot be emphasized enough.

Tony, I also agree with fandango that you should try, with whatever energy you have left, to stay "available" to him as much as possible, or at least comfortable, for you.  Also, Hammill offers some extremely critical advice: no matter how close we are to a person, no matter how much we love them or show sympathy and support, no matter how much we want to - and try to - help them, if they ultimately take their life, it is not - it is never - our fault, no matter what we may think, or even what they (via any note) or others might say.  In this regard, feelings of grief - even extreme anger - are completely understandable in the face of a loved one's (or even good friend's) suicide.  However, "guilt" is a feeling you must avoid at all costs, since not only is it misplaced, but if not "worked through," it can be dangerously consuming.

My prayers remain with you and your friend.

Peace.

All:

At Tony's request, I am closing this thread.

Tony expresses his most sincere gratitude to everyone for their comments, feedback, advice and, most importantly, support.

I am certain he will update us if anything changes radically.  Until then, let us all simply keep him in our prayers, thoughts or whatever form of support we feel most comfortable with.

Peace.