For the second time in my life a close friend is hell-bent on self-destruction through drugs.When I was at Uni a friend OD'd and died-his parents actually blamed me for not "being by his side to protect him"

Now another friend,a very good old friend is doing the same.He tried to commit suicide last night.

I cant go through this again.....

Jeez. That's pretty heavy.

I've actually had to deal with suicide myself. My brother tried to commit suicide a couple of years back, he's a lot happier nowadays (which is a very good thing).

And my father's best friend and business partner commited suicide about a year ago.

Tony R wrote: I cant go through this again.....

Sorry to hear this Tony, but you seem a very strong character to me. Nothing like this as ever happened to me though, so I can't say that I know what you're going through.

Ive had people in my life go down that road. It isnt pleasant to say the least. Painfull for everyone involved. My sypmpathies Tony

Tony R wrote: For the second time in my life a close friend is hell-bent on self-destruction through drugs.When I was at Uni a friend OD'd and died-his parents actually blamed me for not "being by his side to protect him" Now another friend,a very good old friend is doing the same.He tried to commit suicide last night. I cant go through this again.....

Hard to know what to say Tony.  Just don't give up. 

I'm sorry to hear this.

I hope you can cope with it, and hopefully your friend will be alright.

James:

You would have made a great counseling minister!

Tony:

I currently counsel two people who are suicidal.  One is someone who I could call a "friend," though probably not as close as you are with yours.  As suggested by my comment to James, the first step to understanding suicidal thought and action is to understand what it means to live in constant fear, angst, hate, disappointment, betrayal, etc. - whatever feeling or combination of feelings makes a person dread living through each day (or sometimes each moment).  In the case of my friend, she is vritually "electrically charged" every second of every day.  If it were not for her therapist, her best friend and myself, she would almost certainly not still be alive.

The second step in handling suicidal people - especially friends - is very difficult, because it requires a person to virtually split themselves in two.  On the one hand, it is, of course, critical to provide love, support, an "ear," etc.  On the other, one must be able to "remove" oneself enough to avoid any feelings of helplessness - and especially guilt - should the person succeed in taking their own life.  In this regard, the comments of the parents of your other friend are not only unhelpful, they are almost antithetical to understanding and dealing with suicide.

My love, support and prayers are with you, and especially with your friend.

Peace.

JrKASperov wrote: I'm just going to give it a try and say: Try Yahshua.

How can that help?  that is only going to add to their problems.

Tony,

Impossible to know what to say. I've seen it in my family and amongst acquaintances, it is frustrating, infuriating and fills you with impotent rage and I don't think any amount of intervention will work unless the person involved finds a reason to de-'junk' their life.

I sympathise with both the plight of your mate and of you. It's crushing for everyone involved. And most of all I'm sorry. It's just very, very hard.

Keep your own faith in humanity alive and maybe it will filter through...

J.

Difficult to express my feelings,but thanks again.

Joe is quite well and threatening to come round and convalesce at my place (it aint happening...)

I'll keep you all posted,and thanks for the advice and support.

Well I saw my daughter's mother today at the hospital. Still suffering from brain cancer and yet fighting for her life. Now, when she isn't having seizures, she's staring blankly off in a vegetative state. She cannot feed herself or use the bathroom facilities. Every now and then she snaps to to give us a brief smile or may even have a few words to say. This is the quality of her life.

Now I am suppose to feel sorry for a perfectly healthy guy who doesn't want to live?

Tony...I like you and I hate to find out you are grieving or that you may lose a close friend, but after seeing Sue today I have to put things into perspective. I think your friend is very selfish for putting his loved ones through this.

gdub411 wrote: Well I saw my daughter's mother today at the hospital. Still suffering from brain cancer and yet fighting for her life. Now, when she isn't having seizures, she's staring blankly off in a vegetative state. She cannot feed herself or use the bathroom facilities. Every now and then she snaps to to give us a brief smile or may even have a few words to say. This is the quality of her life. Now I am suppose to feel sorry for a perfectly healthy guy who doesn't want to live? Tony...I like you and I hate to find out you are grieving or that you may lose a close friend, but after seeing Sue today I have to put things into perspective. I think your friend is very selfish for putting his loved ones through this.

Yeah,I hear you Greg!

Tony R wrote: gdub411 wrote: Well I saw my daughter's mother today at the hospital. Still suffering from brain cancer and yet fighting for her life. Now, when she isn't having seizures, she's staring blankly off in a vegetative state. She cannot feed herself or use the bathroom facilities. Every now and then she snaps to to give us a brief smile or may even have a few words to say. This is the quality of her life. Now I am suppose to feel sorry for a perfectly healthy guy who doesn't want to live? Tony...I like you and I hate to find out you are grieving or that you may lose a close friend, but after seeing Sue today I have to put things into perspective. I think your friend is very selfish for putting his loved ones through this. Yeah,I hear you Greg!

Well I'm glad that went over okay with you.

My daughter has had a rough year. At least she will get her mind off of it next week. She's going to NYC. She'll have fun.

gdub411 wrote: Well I saw my daughter's mother today at the hospital. Still suffering from brain cancer and yet fighting for her life. Now, when she isn't having seizures, she's staring blankly off in a vegetative state. She cannot feed herself or use the bathroom facilities. Every now and then she snaps to to give us a brief smile or may even have a few words to say. This is the quality of her life. Now I am suppose to feel sorry for a perfectly healthy guy who doesn't want to live? Tony...I like you and I hate to find out you are grieving or that you may lose a close friend, but after seeing Sue today I have to put things into perspective. I think your friend is very selfish for putting his loved ones through this.

All people are selfish.

I hope both your daughter's mother and Tony's friend will be alright.

I do indeed Barbs.

Trouble is he's out and about now and playing (and preying) on the sympathy of well-wishers.When this tidal wave emotion subsides (and he burns his bridges once more) we'll be back to square one.

He's talking about going to live with his mother in Canada(permanently)-can he do this? He has a criminal record (petty theft,and drugs) so I dont think so.

Many years ago a freind of mine in a fit of depression and drug induced stupor thraetened to kill himself by blowing his head off with a rifle, for hours i and another freind treid to talk him out of it,it went on for much of the night.

finally he collapsed from exhaustion and the drugs waering off and we were able to take the gun from him and get some help.

i dont mind telling you that i am no hero, on several occassions when he pointed his gun at me my knees buckled in terror,its not like the movies,there are no clever scripted lines or carefully thought out philosophical arguments,there is just panic praying and desperation,  I have never been so afraid in my entire life, both for him and my other freind and myself, it was a sad glimpse into the depths of dispair.

Today my freind is fine, he got help and counselling and much of his recovery came from knowing that we were there to help and support him(and also in knowing we were not going to take any bullsh*t from him,!!! this is important!!) This knowing that he was not alone coupled with his desire to get help and his own courage in facing his demons went along way to aid his recovery.

But it is a bit like smoking,you cant make a smoker give up they have to do it of their own accord,but you can be there when they make the decision to seek help.

i wish i had the wisdom to offer constructive advice but reading some of the other entreis in this thraed i suspect there are wiser people than i who would be of graeter help than any clumsy attempt of mine.

however im on your side mate and i really hope you can find a way to help your freinds. I think you have the courage to help, i hope they have the courage to seek it.

Gdub:

While I feel as much for the condition of your daughter's mother, her condition and the situation with Tony's friend are not mutually exclusive.  Pain, grief, quality of life, etc. are relative - are, as you suggest, a matter of "perspective."  Both situations are "bad" for the people involved in them.

One comment demands making, however.  Despite what we - i.e., "normal, well-adjusted" people - may think or feel, suicidal tendencies, and suicide itself, are not "selfish."  One can agree or disagree with the "morality" of it, but a suicidal person is not acting in a "selfish" way - at least vis-a-vis other people.  They are not "putting others through" something - and certainly not consciously or deliberately.

As has been discussed, suicidal people can, and most often do, live in a constant state of almost "electric" angst.  And they often have to find "good reason" to remain alive.  This is hardly a positive "quality of life," despite the fact that they may have five senses, mobility, active consciousness (one might even say "overly active"), etc.

Suicide itself is a "desperate" act that usually occurs quite suddenly: contrary to popular belief, it is not usually a "well-planned" act, but one committed almost "off-the-cuff," in a heightened state of anxiety that puts the person in an entirely different "space" in which they are literally incapable of making any rational decision.

I am not trying in any way to downplay your daughter's mother's condition.  I am only hoping to "correct" your notion of what it means to be suicidal, and that it is not, despite what it seems, a "selfish" act.

Peace.

maani wrote: Suicide itself is a "desperate" act that usually occurs quite suddenly: contrary to popular belief, it is not usually a "well-planned" act, but one committed almost "off-the-cuff," in a heightened state of anxiety that puts the person in an entirely different "space" in which they are literally incapable of making any rational decision.

Exactly. I'm guiding / counseling a woman right now who tried to commit suicide 3 times. She doesn't really want to kill herself, but sometimes she feels like falling into some sort of gap.

Once again: all the best, Tony. Keep on hoping, and don't let it get you down. You know now that there are people on the forum who sympathize with you, man. 

Hi Tony,

There's not much else I can add that's not already been said.  I have no experience of a friend wishing to take his own life owing to drug dependance, so I'm not best placed to provide 'advice'.

My gut feeling is that you should keep him talking.  Very often, what many of us lack is not only someone to talk to, but someone who is actually genuinely interested in what we are saying.  That might sound trite, but it is a powerful tool.  Maybe your friend needs to answer his own questions in words; to rationalise his thoughts, and put things into perspective.

Rather than dispensing advice (I expect he's heard enough advice in his life!!) you could try to let him lead the discussions, by getting him to express how he's feeling/ what he wants to do, in a subtle way; steering him without asking too many questions...'reflect' his remarks to get him to think.

You can do this by using 3 tools:

Empathy; trying to understand how he feels at all times, by standing in his shoes.  A term often banded about, but very hard to do.

Congruence; making yourself approachable at all times, and consistant in your attitude toward him.

Non-Judgemental positive regard.  Let him see that you have his best interests at heart at all times, and don't judge him, even if he says the most outlandish things.

If you want to PM me at any time, feel free...you know you can.

James said:

"Just try to remember: once you've really seen the edge, it's hard to take seriously the well-meaning words of people who are trying to help you.  For one thing, if you are at all intelligent, the clumsy and puerile fumblings of most psychological 'professionals' only deepen the conviction that you can't be helped.  Also (as maani mentioned), it often takes more than simply listing the things for which you should be thankful...especially when the act of appreciation itself provides a mirror to your own failings and inability to feel appropriate emotions.  Those who are truly in danger have probably lived near the edge long enough to develop sophisticated defenses, a self-preservation mechanism that conversely makes it difficult for any 'outsider' to influence them, even for the better."

Thank you, James.  This shows true understanding, and cannot be emphasized enough.

Tony, I also agree with fandango that you should try, with whatever energy you have left, to stay "available" to him as much as possible, or at least comfortable, for you.  Also, Hammill offers some extremely critical advice: no matter how close we are to a person, no matter how much we love them or show sympathy and support, no matter how much we want to - and try to - help them, if they ultimately take their life, it is not - it is never - our fault, no matter what we may think, or even what they (via any note) or others might say.  In this regard, feelings of grief - even extreme anger - are completely understandable in the face of a loved one's (or even good friend's) suicide.  However, "guilt" is a feeling you must avoid at all costs, since not only is it misplaced, but if not "worked through," it can be dangerously consuming.

My prayers remain with you and your friend.

Peace.

Thanks for all your concern folks.

Let's concentrate on the music-a healthy type of escapism.

All:

At Tony's request, I am closing this thread.

Tony expresses his most sincere gratitude to everyone for their comments, feedback, advice and, most importantly, support.

I am certain he will update us if anything changes radically.  Until then, let us all simply keep him in our prayers, thoughts or whatever form of support we feel most comfortable with.

Peace.