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Garion81 wrote: maani wrote: No, what is occurring here is that sometimes the majority is wrong, and it is incumbent upon the administrators of the site to stand behind the "greater" principle - free speech - than the "lesser" principle, a somewhat tenuous issue of "morality" vis-a-vis the entire concept of scalping. Peace. What a completely over the top statement. Do  you wake up in the morning patting yourself on the back to how brilliant you are? Thank God, Maani, we have you around to make sure you dictate to the majority of us what is  right and wrong. How did we ever get along with out you?  This isn't free speech.  You are protecting someone’s right to do something reprehensible.  Should we open this up to child molesters to sell their pornography in interest of free speech? How about stolen merchandise?  You on board with that?  I mean they need a forum to dispense there wares too.  All in the interest of free speech of course.

I agree, I respect Maani's views, and he makes a good argument, but there is always an opposing argument. Therefore to state that "the majority got it wrong" is also in error and its just as easy for us to say" The Minority got it wrong"!

MAANI:

YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE A MEMBER OF THIS FORUM TO POST REVIEWS.

THEREFORE THE DELETION OF REVIEWS IS NOT A FORUM MEMBERSHIP ISSUE!

Therefore "banging on " about Octavarium reviews and DT Fanboys bears no relation to this disccussion!

marktheshark wrote: The root cause of Africa's problems comes from their own oppressive governments, not ours or anybody elses. The best and brightest of these countries leave them and won't have anything to do with them. That's why the problems continue to persist no matter what you do.

Why do the african people have to suffer for the self-enriching governments of the past. The debts discussed are the result of bad management of both former (and current) african governments, and hypocritical westernworld banking, who knew hardly any of the lended money would ever benefit the african people, but only tighten the Western grip on the poor african nations.

Who benefitted from the loans

1. African elite, and leaders who stole that money from their countrie, and lead luxurious lives.
2. Western corporations, in exchange for those loans, they were given privaliges for Oil drilling, mining, and benefited from the low labour costs.
3. Western governments. Tight grip on the politicians, high interest rates, safe investment, for the lended money was stolen from these countries in the first place (years of surpressing an entire continent)

Who didn't benefitted from these loans

The African people, exploiting of their misery was continued, they never benefitted on what ever manner from these

Who will have to pay those loans back.

The poor African people another hoorray for kapitalism

At this moment the debts of a lot of poor African countries is ridicilous. for every dollar these African people make, some 70% will go to the payment of debts, leaving no room for economic growth, and keeping them poor.

I hate this world

fortunatly the tide seems to be turning a bit, but it's not enough

marktheshark wrote: You may have a point Tux. But why should the people of the Western world be burdened with higher taxes to finance this mess when it wasn't their fault? It wasn't mine and I don't think it was yours either. Still, it all comes down to their own governments.

Why do you think we will be burdened with higher taxes????????????????????????????

this statement alone, shows you are a supporter of poverty, these countries pay billions a year to us for loans they shouldn't have gotten in the first place, this is what exploiting means, put them in a place they can't escape from, and let them work for us, without a possibility of ever escaping the misery their in. And we get richer over the back of helpless people, who never asked for the loans themselves. this is modern slavery, And I can't support that

marktheshark wrote: You can knock capitalism all you want. But it was capitalism that: Invented the airplane The internal combustion engine (cars) The telephone The phonograph (now cds which you are now enjoying I may add) The PC (are with me on this one?) And I can go on forever with this. Sure, there's bad in capitalism just like there is in anything else. Nothing's perfect. But you sound like you want to cure the cold by cutting off the head.

these inventions have nothing to do with capitalism, communism, or whatever ism.

they are the result of technical innovation, research and human curiosity, and a continous need to explore.

not an argument that supports capitalism as a system, but a great achievement of the human race, independant of economics

marktheshark wrote: Snow Dog wrote: marktheshark wrote: tuxon wrote: marktheshark wrote: The root cause of Africa's problems comes from their own oppressive governments, not ours or anybody elses. The best and brightest of these countries leave them and won't have anything to do with them. That's why the problems continue to persist no matter what you do.   Why do the african people have to suffer for the self-enriching governments of the past. The debts discussed are the result of bad management of both former (and current) african governments, and hypocritical westernworld banking, who knew hardly any of the lended money would ever benefit the african people, but only tighten the Western grip on the poor african nations. Who benefitted from the loans 1. African elite, and leaders who stole that money from their countrie, and lead luxurious lives.2. Western corporations, in exchange for those loans, they were given privaliges for Oil drilling, mining, and benefited from the low labour costs.3. Western governments. Tight grip on the politicians, high interest rates, safe investment, for the lended money was stolen from these countries in the first place (years of surpressing an entire continent) Who didn't benefitted from these loans The African people, exploiting of their misery was continued, they never benefitted on what ever manner from these   Who will have to pay those loans back. The poor African people another hoorray for kapitalism At this moment the debts of a lot of poor African countries is ridicilous. for every dollar these African people make, some 70% will go to the payment of debts, leaving no room for economic growth, and keeping them poor.   I hate this world fortunatly the tide seems to be turning a bit, but it's not enough You may have a point Tux. But why should the people of the Western world be burdened with higher taxes to finance this mess when it wasn't their fault? It wasn't mine and I don't think it was yours either. Still, it all comes down to their own governments. wether its their fault or not, do we do nothing while a child dies every 5 seconds due to poverty? Absolutely not! It would be defeatist to just say "why bother, it doesn't work. So why give?" I'm just saying that giving should come from the heart, not the tax return. When Bob did Live Aid in '85, me and my Navy buddies bought 4 kegs of beer and went around the neighborhood passing around flyers. We charged $10 a head and raised over $800 while we blasted the concert on the big screen TV and stereo (we had some great sound systems, after being in Japan) out on the pool deck. One helluva party! Unfortunately the results of all that giving didn't really pan out. All we can do is do what we can do. It comes down to their own governments.

those governments you speak of, stand with their back against the wall. Due to absurd back payments for misused and stolen loans by former governments, they have no money to spare for develepment of infrastructure, education, medical facilities, and other aspects needed for economic growth.

It's a viscious circle, the only way out is with help of the western world. We don't even have to pay anything, just an allocation of funds. today we pay billion of euro's on aid to poor countries. this aid is financed by the income from the loans we gave these same countries.

If these countries didn't have to pay back those loans, then they wouldn't need so much financial aid, so on the balance for the westernworld there is no money lost, and the poor countries have a possibility to escape the visious circle they are in now.

Of course it takes more than just debt relief, also structural investments need to be made, but when done fairly all parties will gain from that.

Again, there is no need for higher taxes

BTW, I'm prepared to pay more taxes, if the tax is used wisely

marktheshark wrote: May I remind you 2 that these were invented here (ok, I'll give some doubt for the Italians on the telephone). An inventor or a researcher can't produce when his own government is intruding with a heavy tax burden. Our own California (which had an economic status that of several countries) suffered from an economic fallout due to heavy tax burden. Businesses were pulling out of that state left and right because of this. I admire your passion on this. Although misguided, but still a passion.

Still irrelevant to the discussion.

Most important research is funded by the government (NASA, Military), funded by taxes I might add irrelevant nonetheless

my passion isn't misguided, it's my way of thinking, and I know I'm right

Great effort Snowy!!