Can members please vote, and see if we have a safe majority who think that the selling of tickets, by people who become members for that sole purpose, are spam, and should be deleted?

   I would like the Admin to see what the Members feel and maybe they will take the "democratic" action!

This might just snowball.........

I think there should be a place for selling anything prog/music related, but not at random threads, and not by non-members (one post fly bye's are not members).

Maybe we should create a specific thread for sales purposes. One thread where members can offer their merchandise, and one thread where members can ask for specific products. And change a little in the forum regulations, create some rules about selling products (Only in the specified threads, no multiple attempts, at least member for a X number of days).

All sales attempts outside such a thread, or post relaying to such a thread, can be regarded spam, or at least not conform forum regulations, and should therefor be deleted.

As some will know, I'm not really against selling anything (I don't care since I won't buy from dubious people, so their sale attempts are wasted on me), but if a majority on the forum are against the sale of a product (in this case it's a concert ticket, in other cases it can be adult porn, or memberships cards for the KKK, all three are within the freedom as protected by the law, but there can be a controversie about whether the offered product is something we want associated with the site) it shouldn't be allowed.

In the end this is Ronnie and mailto:M@X's - M@X's site, so they'll have the final word on what they find appropriate for this site.

For the integrity of the site, I think we shouldn't allow dubious sale attempts (product, seller, or method of selling).

So i voted Yes delete them please Maani.

because.

1. The sellers aren't members, but one post fly bye's
2. Product is questionable
3. two or three attempts within the hour is spam
4. Controversie arrose over the product, some people (valuable members) deemed it inapropriate, and I think most are against it. why protect these spammers and not take notice of the long term members feelings (which in some cases are very strong)

Even if I was convinced all was well with the sale of this product, I would still delete this, since it obviously isn't well with a number of regular members.

hope I make sense, if not, so be it.

Regards tuxon

Snow Dog wrote: This vote is not as overwhelming as I thought it would be! Is everyone happy with the situation then?

20 against 0

not an overwelming victorie for social grace against moral decay

It's Happy Christmas for the whores.....the war is over.

Tony R wrote: It's Happy Christmas for the whores.....the war is over.

Am I thick? I don't get it!.......Is it a Lennon referece

"So this is Xmas, and what have you done...."

tuxon:

Your reasons for deleting the threads were:

1. The sellers aren't members, but one post fly bye's
2. Product is questionable
3. two or three attempts within the hour is spam
4. Controversie arrose over the product, some people (valuable members) deemed it inapropriate, and I think most are against it. why protect these spammers and not take notice of the long term members feelings (which in some cases are very strong)

Re #1, I have pointed out that the two dozen or more "members" who joined for the sole purpose of giving Octavarium a 5-star review are also not "members," and are "one post fly-bye's."  Should I delete all of their posts and eject them as well?

Re #2, many posts (and even threads) are "questionable," yet they are allowed to remain because to do otherwise is to enter the very realm of "censorship" that few here would like to see this site devolve into.

Re #3, as far as I can tell, these people posted once each; I do not see multiple attempts.  Once the thread or post was opened, discussion/conversation ensued, but that does not make "multiple attempts."  If I am missing something here, let me know.

Re #4, controversy has arisen over quite a number of things on this site, including the inclusion of Radiohead, the recent DT/Octavarium situation, and dozens of threads and posts that "some people deemed inappropriate," and that many members "were against."  However, the admin group looked at each of these "offending" threads, posts, etc. on a case by case basis, and in most cases allowed them to remain because they did not rise to the level that the admin group felt warranted deletion.

Contrary to your statement, no one is "protecting these spammers and not taking notice of the long-term members feelings."  We are indeed taking notice of the members' feelings.  However, while the members are entitled to their feelings, we do not agree that the remedy being sought by some members (i.e., deletion) is appropriate in this instance; we have chosen to "err on the side of caution," since it appears that some good may well come out of the sales.  For us to delete the threads would amount to our "caving in" to member pressure, based largely on what is the presumed nefarious intent of the sellers - which not only cannot be proven, but which is actually disproven by some of the sellers' claims, made not in response to this controversy, but at the time of initial posting.

No, what is occurring here is that sometimes the majority is wrong, and it is incumbent upon the administrators of the site to stand behind the "greater" principle - free speech - than the "lesser" principle, a somewhat tenuous issue of "morality" vis-a-vis the entire concept of scalping.

Peace.

maani wrote: No, what is occurring here is that sometimes the majority is wrong, and it is incumbent upon the administrators of the site to stand behind the "greater" principle - free speech - than the "lesser" principle, a somewhat tenuous issue of "morality" vis-a-vis the entire concept of scalping. Peace.

What a completely over the top statement. Do  you wake up in the morning patting yourself on the back to how brilliant you are? Thank God, Maani, we have you around to make sure you dictate to the majority of us what is  right and wrong. How did we ever get along with out you? 

This isn't free speech.  You are protecting someone’s right to do something reprehensible.  Should we open this up to child molesters to sell their pornography in interest of free speech? How about stolen merchandise?  You on board with that?  I mean they need a forum to dispense there wares too.  All in the interest of free speech of course.   

Garion81 wrote: maani wrote: No, what is occurring here is that sometimes the majority is wrong, and it is incumbent upon the administrators of the site to stand behind the "greater" principle - free speech - than the "lesser" principle, a somewhat tenuous issue of "morality" vis-a-vis the entire concept of scalping. Peace. What a completely over the top statement. Do  you wake up in the morning patting yourself on the back to how brilliant you are? Thank God, Maani, we have you around to make sure you dictate to the majority of us what is  right and wrong. How did we ever get along with out you?  This isn't free speech.  You are protecting someone’s right to do something reprehensible.  Should we open this up to child molesters to sell their pornography in interest of free speech? How about stolen merchandise?  You on board with that?  I mean they need a forum to dispense there wares too.  All in the interest of free speech of course.

I agree, I respect Maani's views, and he makes a good argument, but there is always an opposing argument. Therefore to state that "the majority got it wrong" is also in error and its just as easy for us to say" The Minority got it wrong"!

Garion:

As noted, stolen property is different than property obtained perfectly legally and then sold at inflated prices.

As for child molesters, that would not be tolerated because actual harm is being done, or overtly suggested.  Where is the harm in the inflated ticket sale?  If the buyer is willing to pay the price, no harm is done to him/her.  In addition, since these concerts about "awareness" and not "money" (they are not "fundraisers," but awareness raisers), neither the producers nor anyone else is harmed by the transaction.

I can understand that ticket scalping is repugnant to many.  And believe me, as stated in another thread, I would support legislation and/or enforcement against "professional" scalpers who wain in line (and often pay others to wait in line) to get as many tickets as possible at face value for the express purpose of re-selling them at inflated prices.

The tickets to Live8 were obtained through legal channels, by individuals; the lottery system eliminated the very idea that a "professional" scalper could get his/her hands on more than one or two tickets at best - and then only if they were lucky enough to "win" the lottery.

Also as noted, three of the six people who offered tickets stated from the beginning - before this controversy arose - that all or a portion of the proceeds would go to charity.  You may choose to believe or disbelieve them.  And that seems to be where we part ways.  I am not ready to presume the worst about people - that all three of them are lying, and are simply going to go out and spend the money on a new Porsche.  You, and others, apparently are willing to presume the worst about people.

Again, in addition to the free speech issue, I would rather err ("err": to make a mistake) on the side of caution - that some good will come out of those ticket sales - than to assume nefarious intent (and flat-out lying) on the part of all of the sellers.

Peace.

MAANI:

YOU DO NOT NEED TO BE A MEMBER OF THIS FORUM TO POST REVIEWS.

THEREFORE THE DELETION OF REVIEWS IS NOT A FORUM MEMBERSHIP ISSUE!

Therefore "banging on " about Octavarium reviews and DT Fanboys bears no relation to this disccussion!

marktheshark wrote: The root cause of Africa's problems comes from their own oppressive governments, not ours or anybody elses. The best and brightest of these countries leave them and won't have anything to do with them. That's why the problems continue to persist no matter what you do.

Why do the african people have to suffer for the self-enriching governments of the past. The debts discussed are the result of bad management of both former (and current) african governments, and hypocritical westernworld banking, who knew hardly any of the lended money would ever benefit the african people, but only tighten the Western grip on the poor african nations.

Who benefitted from the loans

1. African elite, and leaders who stole that money from their countrie, and lead luxurious lives.
2. Western corporations, in exchange for those loans, they were given privaliges for Oil drilling, mining, and benefited from the low labour costs.
3. Western governments. Tight grip on the politicians, high interest rates, safe investment, for the lended money was stolen from these countries in the first place (years of surpressing an entire continent)

Who didn't benefitted from these loans

The African people, exploiting of their misery was continued, they never benefitted on what ever manner from these

Who will have to pay those loans back.

The poor African people another hoorray for kapitalism

At this moment the debts of a lot of poor African countries is ridicilous. for every dollar these African people make, some 70% will go to the payment of debts, leaving no room for economic growth, and keeping them poor.

I hate this world

fortunatly the tide seems to be turning a bit, but it's not enough

Easy Livin wrote: I voted Yes

Thank you Easy. Its great to have Admin support, but I fear this has become ( if it weren't already) futile! The sands of time sift against us, the battle is lost!

Never mind, eh!

marktheshark wrote: tuxon wrote: marktheshark wrote: The root cause of Africa's problems comes from their own oppressive governments, not ours or anybody elses. The best and brightest of these countries leave them and won't have anything to do with them. That's why the problems continue to persist no matter what you do.   Why do the african people have to suffer for the self-enriching governments of the past. The debts discussed are the result of bad management of both former (and current) african governments, and hypocritical westernworld banking, who knew hardly any of the lended money would ever benefit the african people, but only tighten the Western grip on the poor african nations. Who benefitted from the loans 1. African elite, and leaders who stole that money from their countrie, and lead luxurious lives.2. Western corporations, in exchange for those loans, they were given privaliges for Oil drilling, mining, and benefited from the low labour costs.3. Western governments. Tight grip on the politicians, high interest rates, safe investment, for the lended money was stolen from these countries in the first place (years of surpressing an entire continent) Who didn't benefitted from these loans The African people, exploiting of their misery was continued, they never benefitted on what ever manner from these   Who will have to pay those loans back. The poor African people another hoorray for kapitalism At this moment the debts of a lot of poor African countries is ridicilous. for every dollar these African people make, some 70% will go to the payment of debts, leaving no room for economic growth, and keeping them poor.   I hate this world fortunatly the tide seems to be turning a bit, but it's not enough You may have a point Tux. But why should the people of the Western world be burdened with higher taxes to finance this mess when it wasn't their fault? It wasn't mine and I don't think it was yours either. Still, it all comes down to their own governments.

wether its their fault or not, do we do nothing while a child dies every 5 seconds due to poverty?

marktheshark wrote: You may have a point Tux. But why should the people of the Western world be burdened with higher taxes to finance this mess when it wasn't their fault? It wasn't mine and I don't think it was yours either. Still, it all comes down to their own governments.

Why do you think we will be burdened with higher taxes????????????????????????????

this statement alone, shows you are a supporter of poverty, these countries pay billions a year to us for loans they shouldn't have gotten in the first place, this is what exploiting means, put them in a place they can't escape from, and let them work for us, without a possibility of ever escaping the misery their in. And we get richer over the back of helpless people, who never asked for the loans themselves. this is modern slavery, And I can't support that

marktheshark wrote: You can knock capitalism all you want. But it was capitalism that: Invented the airplane The internal combustion engine (cars) The telephone The phonograph (now cds which you are now enjoying I may add) The PC (are with me on this one?) And I can go on forever with this. Sure, there's bad in capitalism just like there is in anything else. Nothing's perfect. But you sound like you want to cure the cold by cutting off the head.

these inventions have nothing to do with capitalism, communism, or whatever ism.

they are the result of technical innovation, research and human curiosity, and a continous need to explore.

not an argument that supports capitalism as a system, but a great achievement of the human race, independant of economics

tuxon wrote: marktheshark wrote: You can knock capitalism all you want. But it was capitalism that: Invented the airplane The internal combustion engine (cars) The telephone The phonograph (now cds which you are now enjoying I may add) The PC (are with me on this one?) And I can go on forever with this. Sure, there's bad in capitalism just like there is in anything else. Nothing's perfect. But you sound like you want to cure the cold by cutting off the head. these inventions have nothing to do with capitalism, communism, or whatever ism. they are the result of technical innovation, research and human curiosity, and a continous need to explore. not an argument that supports capitalism as a system, but a great achievement of the human race, independant of economics

My sentiments exactly

marktheshark wrote: Snow Dog wrote: marktheshark wrote: tuxon wrote: marktheshark wrote: The root cause of Africa's problems comes from their own oppressive governments, not ours or anybody elses. The best and brightest of these countries leave them and won't have anything to do with them. That's why the problems continue to persist no matter what you do.   Why do the african people have to suffer for the self-enriching governments of the past. The debts discussed are the result of bad management of both former (and current) african governments, and hypocritical westernworld banking, who knew hardly any of the lended money would ever benefit the african people, but only tighten the Western grip on the poor african nations. Who benefitted from the loans 1. African elite, and leaders who stole that money from their countrie, and lead luxurious lives.2. Western corporations, in exchange for those loans, they were given privaliges for Oil drilling, mining, and benefited from the low labour costs.3. Western governments. Tight grip on the politicians, high interest rates, safe investment, for the lended money was stolen from these countries in the first place (years of surpressing an entire continent) Who didn't benefitted from these loans The African people, exploiting of their misery was continued, they never benefitted on what ever manner from these   Who will have to pay those loans back. The poor African people another hoorray for kapitalism At this moment the debts of a lot of poor African countries is ridicilous. for every dollar these African people make, some 70% will go to the payment of debts, leaving no room for economic growth, and keeping them poor.   I hate this world fortunatly the tide seems to be turning a bit, but it's not enough You may have a point Tux. But why should the people of the Western world be burdened with higher taxes to finance this mess when it wasn't their fault? It wasn't mine and I don't think it was yours either. Still, it all comes down to their own governments. wether its their fault or not, do we do nothing while a child dies every 5 seconds due to poverty? Absolutely not! It would be defeatist to just say "why bother, it doesn't work. So why give?" I'm just saying that giving should come from the heart, not the tax return. When Bob did Live Aid in '85, me and my Navy buddies bought 4 kegs of beer and went around the neighborhood passing around flyers. We charged $10 a head and raised over $800 while we blasted the concert on the big screen TV and stereo (we had some great sound systems, after being in Japan) out on the pool deck. One helluva party! Unfortunately the results of all that giving didn't really pan out. All we can do is do what we can do. It comes down to their own governments.

those governments you speak of, stand with their back against the wall. Due to absurd back payments for misused and stolen loans by former governments, they have no money to spare for develepment of infrastructure, education, medical facilities, and other aspects needed for economic growth.

It's a viscious circle, the only way out is with help of the western world. We don't even have to pay anything, just an allocation of funds. today we pay billion of euro's on aid to poor countries. this aid is financed by the income from the loans we gave these same countries.

If these countries didn't have to pay back those loans, then they wouldn't need so much financial aid, so on the balance for the westernworld there is no money lost, and the poor countries have a possibility to escape the visious circle they are in now.

Of course it takes more than just debt relief, also structural investments need to be made, but when done fairly all parties will gain from that.

Again, there is no need for higher taxes

BTW, I'm prepared to pay more taxes, if the tax is used wisely

marktheshark wrote: May I remind you 2 that these were invented here (ok, I'll give some doubt for the Italians on the telephone). An inventor or a researcher can't produce when his own government is intruding with a heavy tax burden. Our own California (which had an economic status that of several countries) suffered from an economic fallout due to heavy tax burden. Businesses were pulling out of that state left and right because of this. I admire your passion on this. Although misguided, but still a passion.

Still irrelevant to the discussion.

Most important research is funded by the government (NASA, Military), funded by taxes I might add irrelevant nonetheless

my passion isn't misguided, it's my way of thinking, and I know I'm right

Great effort Snowy!!