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Kotro 
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 Topic: Dumb question from a musical leighman
Posted: May 25 2009 at 13:46 |
In conversation a small doubt arose, which none of folks gathered knew a correct answer to, even though I'm guessing it should be common knowledge around here. Here goes:
What does the 9/8 on the Apocalypse section of Genesis' Supper's Ready stand for? The most common answer was time signature, but no one was really sure.
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Endless Wire
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 14:02 |
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Correct. 9 represents nine beats per measure, while the 8 indicates that an eight note counts as one beat.
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lazland
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 14:02 |
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Hi Kotro
It was, indeed, nine beats to the bar which gave the sub section its unique name.
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Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
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Kotro
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Posted: May 25 2009 at 14:09 |
Thanks, guys. 
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Bigger on the inside.
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J-Man
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 16:22 |
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I see this thread got a lot accomplished...
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Slartibartfast
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 16:43 |
 progrocker2244 wrote:
I see this thread got a lot accomplished...
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OK, but it I'm not mistaken the proper spelling is layman. Just saying. 
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Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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KingCrimson250
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 17:51 |
Also, technically the Apocalypse is poly-rhythmic, at least so long as Tony gets his say  But yes, the majority of the section is in 9/8, hence the title
Edited by KingCrimson250 - May 27 2009 at 17:52
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cobb2
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Posted: May 27 2009 at 22:53 |
9/8 is not 9 beats each of an eighth note.
9/8 is compound time. It can be counted as 9 beats each of an eighth, but the true beat value is 3 beats each of a dotted quarter.
If the top number is divisible by 3 but larger than 3 then the time signature is compound. You need to divide the top number by 3 to get the beats. You then divide the bottom number by 2 to get the beat value. This will give you 4 which is a quarter note, then to make a compound note, add a dot to the value to make a dotted quarter as the beat value.
This is important, because 9 eighths notes to a measure produces different stress values to 3 dotted quarters per measure. 3 dotted quarters to a measure actually gives you a waltz stress pattern.
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Mr ProgFreak
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Posted: May 28 2009 at 01:35 |
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^ but then again 9/8 doesn't always mean 3-3-3 ...
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cobb2
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Posted: May 28 2009 at 01:56 |
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True PF. In the case of the apocolyse section Hackett is doing some nice syncopation on counts 3, 5 and 9 with the high F# in the repeating sixteenth - sixteenth rest - sixteenth - sixteenth rest... chord pattern. Banks' organ would seem to be standard 9/8 over the top of it, giving the organ a nice flowing feel, while the guitar gives it that broken punch. So in this case there is the keyboard using a standard approach to 9/8 and the guitar with the syncopated pattern driving it on.
Edited by cobb2 - May 28 2009 at 02:03
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clarke2001
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Posted: May 28 2009 at 04:00 |
cobb2 wrote:
9/8 is not 9 beats each of an eighth note.
9/8 is compound time. It can be counted as 9 beats each of an eighth, but the true beat value is 3 beats each of a dotted quarter.
If the top number is divisible by 3 but larger than 3 then the time signature is compound. You need to divide the top number by 3 to get the beats. You then divide the bottom number by 2 to get the beat value. This will give you 4 which is a quarter note, then to make a compound note, add a dot to the value to make a dotted quarter as the beat value.
This is important, because 9 eighths notes to a measure produces different stress values to 3 dotted quarters per measure. 3 dotted quarters to a measure actually gives you a waltz stress pattern. |
This is complicating the things, even if it's true (and it is). And it's yielded from someone raised on Western music. Just quickly swing your body in 2+2+2+3
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Snow Dog
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Posted: May 28 2009 at 06:14 |
Slartibartfast wrote:
progrocker2244 wrote:
I see this thread got a lot accomplished...
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OK, but it I'm not mistaken the proper spelling is layman. Just saying.
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This is true, and its strange that he's opted for the more complex spelling.
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Kotro
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 04:46 |
It's called ignorance. 
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Bigger on the inside.
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Snow Dog
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 07:06 |
Kotro wrote:
It's called ignorance. |
Ha! It literally is ignorance, but in your case absolutely forgivable. Presuming of course that you are Portugese. 
If you are English though.....
SHAME ON YOU!
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J-Man
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 20:59 |
cobb2 wrote:
True PF. In the case of the apocolyse section Hackett is doing some nice syncopation on counts 3, 5 and 9 with the high F# in the repeating sixteenth - sixteenth rest - sixteenth - sixteenth rest... chord pattern. Banks' organ would seem to be standard 9/8 over the top of it, giving the organ a nice flowing feel, while the guitar gives it that broken punch. So in this case there is the keyboard using a standard approach to 9/8 and the guitar with the syncopated pattern driving it on.
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I could be wrong (knowing me I probably am), but I'm pretty sure the riff is in 9/8 but the keyboard solo is in 4/4.
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cobb2
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Posted: May 29 2009 at 23:06 |
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Nah- all instruments are in 9/8 in the apocalypse section. A good percentage of the organ section are just 3 groups of sixteenth notes per measure. It may be the waltz feel (I'm not saying this is straight forward 1 2 3) in the organ over the staccato guitar chords that is confusing the issue.
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J-Man
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Posted: May 31 2009 at 19:53 |
cobb2 wrote:
Nah- all instruments are in 9/8 in the apocalypse section. A good percentage of the organ section are just 3 groups of sixteenth notes per measure. It may be the waltz feel (I'm not saying this is straight forward 1 2 3) in the organ over the staccato guitar chords that is confusing the issue. |
OK. Thanks for clearing that up.
Edited by progrocker2244 - May 31 2009 at 19:53
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The Pessimist
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Posted: May 31 2009 at 20:16 |
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Just to clarify, 9/8 is only a compound time when phrased that way, example: if the accents are on beat 1 and beat 7. However, if used like in Dream Theater's "Voices", where they simply play a 4/4 beat and add a quaver on the end, it is still technically 9/8 but it isn't compound in the slightest.
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Dumb question from a musical leighman
