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progrules View Drop Down
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Points: 958 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 27 2009 at 01:46
Originally posted by Roland113 Roland113 wrote:

My point is that many epics (in my opinion) aren't as good as they could be because too much padding is added and at times, I really do think the padding is added just to have bragging rights.  I can imagine the guys sitting around at progfests, 'I wrote a twenty-five minute song' , 'yeah, well I wrote a twenty-six minute one'.

I'm joking with the bragging rights, but only to a certain extent.  I've read more than one review of 'Experiments in Mass Appeal' that expressed disappointment as there wasn't an epic on it, before they even listened to the CD.


 
Interesting post Roland, well done ! About the bragging and padding: how about the hidden track phenomenon ! First Light by Shadow Gallery for instance clocks 34 minutes but actually lasts hardly 20. It's laughable and in my opinion a disgrace a band does these things. It's simply a fraud ! Same goes for Camel's The Hour Candle (Harbour of Tears) with only 12 real minutes instead of the promised 23 !! I hate this sh*t  Angry.
 
But when we're talking about REAL epics like The Odyssey or Monsters & Men (you know who) I can't help myself but then there's nothing that can beat an epic ! If I make a top 100 of all time I guess at least 80% of the songs will be above 10 minutes and 60% above 15. But those are the real ones that deserve to be called epics and no frauds.
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Points: 85 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 29 2009 at 18:36
I think that's an interesting but useless discussion...some people like epics and some don't. Period. I, for example, enjoy some of them, for example, i love "A plague of lighthouse keepers", that one is simply the best epic in Prog in my opinion...but on the other hand, songs like "close to the edge" or "supper's ready" don't like me that much, don't get me wrong, they´re good, but not enough for me.
That's my opinion. Bye.
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Points: 8400 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 01 2009 at 08:09
I understand and share your concern that a long song ensures a group or album's inclusion into Prog mania or Prog classica. There are a lot of fair to poor songs out there that run  longer than seven or eight minutes. BUT I am SO EXCITED to share and promote a find I've had, thanks to ProgArchives: 

ODYSSEY "The Greatest Tale" from Musea Records and Colossus Magazine in 2004 is AMAZING! Nine progrock artists from seven different countries collaborated to tell the tale of Ulysses/Odysseus' trials and tribulations while trying to get home after the Trojan War. NINE PIECES, 3CDS, EVERY SONG OVER 20 MINUTES, With no less than five masterpieces, IMO. (Nexus, Aether, Glass Hammer, C.A.P., Tempano). Truly a MUST for any prog lover, prog-epic lover, music lover, art lover, theater lover. GET IT!
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Points: 958 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 02 2009 at 03:05
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

I understand and share your concern that a long song ensures a group or album's inclusion into Prog mania or Prog classica. There are a lot of fair to poor songs out there that run  longer than seven or eight minutes. BUT I am SO EXCITED to share and promote a find I've had, thanks to ProgArchives: 

ODYSSEY "The Greatest Tale" from Musea Records and Colossus Magazine in 2004 is AMAZING! Nine progrock artists from seven different countries collaborated to tell the tale of Ulysses/Odysseus' trials and tribulations while trying to get home after the Trojan War. NINE PIECES, 3CDS, EVERY SONG OVER 20 MINUTES, With no less than five masterpieces, IMO. (Nexus, Aether, Glass Hammer, C.A.P., Tempano). Truly a MUST for any prog lover, prog-epic lover, music lover, art lover, theater lover. GET IT!
 
I support your general thoughts about this threepiece. I think every true progger should have this one.
In detail though I believe Simon Says, Minimum Vital and Nathan Mahl are better than C.A.P. But that's a matter of taste of course. I think at least seven from the nine tracks are (near) masterpieces.
 
By the way: I can also strongly recommend Spaghetti Epic 3 (recent release) with three at least as great epics as on Odyssey. And also Spaghetti 1 and 7 Samurai are really terrific ! Check them out I would like to suggest.
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Points: 18453 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2009 at 05:23
Originally posted by BrufordFreak BrufordFreak wrote:

I understand and share your concern that a long song ensures a group or album's inclusion into Prog mania or Prog classica. There are a lot of fair to poor songs out there that run  longer than seven or eight minutes. BUT I am SO EXCITED to share and promote a find I've had, thanks to ProgArchives: 

ODYSSEY "The Greatest Tale" from Musea Records and Colossus Magazine in 2004 is AMAZING! Nine progrock artists from seven different countries collaborated to tell the tale of Ulysses/Odysseus' trials and tribulations while trying to get home after the Trojan War. NINE PIECES, 3CDS, EVERY SONG OVER 20 MINUTES, With no less than five masterpieces, IMO. (Nexus, Aether, Glass Hammer, C.A.P., Tempano). Truly a MUST for any prog lover, prog-epic lover, music lover, art lover, theater lover. GET IT!


And how about the mini-graphic novel with the excellent artwork? Almost worth keeping just for that, but hey, the music's great, too! Thumbs Up
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Points: 13 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2009 at 13:53
The Flower Kings that write two epics at least per album , but none of them has the quality of one from the golden era, ub ¨70sThumbs Up
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Points: 259 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2009 at 13:53
I only have 4 words:

The Sky Moves Sideways


Edited by Lucent - May 03 2009 at 13:54
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Points: 11979 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2009 at 13:56
Originally posted by Lucent Lucent wrote:

I only have 4 words:

The Sky Moves Sideways


I agree wholeheartedly. I was elated when Steve performed it on the last tour.
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Points: 15745 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2009 at 14:00
Originally posted by fernandobz fernandobz wrote:

The Flower Kings that write two epics at least per album , but none of them has the quality of one from the golden era, ub ¨70sThumbs Up


I really can't think of epics from 00's that can match the innovation of those from the 70's, but as far the musicianship and composition, I think they can match them, like All of the Above by Transatlantic.
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Points: 259 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2009 at 14:04
Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by Lucent Lucent wrote:

I only have 4 words:

The Sky Moves Sideways


I agree wholeheartedly. I was elated when Steve performed it on the last tour.

Speaking of old PT material, I'd love to hear them perform Mute live, if it were ever possible.
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Points: 11979 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 03 2009 at 14:11
Originally posted by Lucent Lucent wrote:

Originally posted by Tony R Tony R wrote:

Originally posted by Lucent Lucent wrote:

I only have 4 words:

The Sky Moves Sideways


I agree wholeheartedly. I was elated when Steve performed it on the last tour.

Speaking of old PT material, I'd love to hear them perform Mute live, if it were ever possible.


I think the only PT epics that will be performed in the future will be new ones. Unfortunately. I personally hope that they put Anesthetize to bed now but of course we are being promised a 55 minute epic (or song cycle as SW calls it) concept piece for the new album.

I wish I had seen them in 95 or 96 when they performed their more adventurous material.
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Points: 393 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 05 2009 at 05:09
Atom Heart Mother is heavy and rough-pysche number by Pink Floyd. Yes it is.
It's an epic, but yet it's easily loved as well. And Tarkus by ELP is the another one.
 
"Cheerio" is too short. But this Jethro Tull's number is blowing off and turning to
some kind of a beautiful-sorrowed departurement . It's easy to loved. You know it. 
 
And "Life Is A Long Song" sings Jethro Tull. Embarrassed
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Points: 3968 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 05:31

What about PT's Russia On Ice ? It's beautiful all the time. And by the way, is it just my opinion, or are most of people overlooking Lightbulb Sun for others, like Fear of the Blank Planet. But nevermind, they all are good except one. I listened it once and I instantly started to hate this album. Their first. It's abomination of their otherwise good music.

DT's Metropolis part 2, could it be considered as a epic ? It's concept album, so maybe ...

Lenghth of Script for the Jester's Tear is quite long too ... and epic

Moon Safari's Other Half of the Sky, which is in fact collection of few songs with common theme.
There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless,"

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Points: 451 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 09:05
In my opinion there are two kinds of "epics". The first being one long song and the other being a long composition consisting of three or four parts. Both of these types of epics often took up one side of an LP.
Personally, I prefer the multi-part epics because they're not too repetitious. Usually each part is very different so it's like four variations on the same theme.
On the other hand, "one siders" like Gravedigger by Janus can just go on and on and on.
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Points: 523 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 06 2009 at 10:25
Originally posted by crimson87 crimson87 wrote:

Now you have The Flower Kings that write two epics at least per album , but none of them has the quality of one from the golden era.

In your opinion.

There's been a few off-hand comments about TFK in this thread which is a shame.

I'll list a few Flower Kings epics that I love every bit as much as any 70s classic:

Garden Of Dreams
The Truth Will Set You Free
I Am The Sun
Devil's Playground
Monsters and Men
Stardust We Are
Humanizzimo

To me, those are glorious epics, beautifully played and superbly composed. They sound natural and organic - like the band are meant to be playing this kind of music rather than the painting-by-numbers prog we get from less gifted musicians.

Even if you don't think those tracks are quite as good as Supper's Ready or CTTE (etc), they should still be applauded for continuing to fly the flag for the prog epic. And maybe if you could just accept that you don't enjoy them quite as much as the 70s classics then you could be enjoying this band rather than criticizing them.

Personally speaking, I feel absolutely blessed to know this band exists and to hear them constantly producing music that I enjoy every bit as much as the bands that I grew up with.




Edited by Nov - June 06 2009 at 10:31
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Points: 224 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 22 2009 at 03:31
I generally prefer epics to short songs on my prog albums, but there have been some epics that just "don't work".  First here are some of the examples of some of the best epics:
 
1. Yes - Close to The Edge - this one comes to mind first when I think of epic, probably because it's one of the first I've heard.  It's just so perfect.  The symmetry is great, the climax is great, it works great live, but I don't feel Yes have played it as well as they did back in the 70s when they had more energy and rocked it a little harder.
 
2. Genesis - Supper's Ready - Probably ties with CTTE as the best epic.  A long one too at 22+ minutes.  This one is great mainly for it's staggeringly grand climax, which works best live.  I don't think any other epic reaches a climax as big as Supper's ready.
 
3. Pink Floyd - Echoes - Another classic epic that has one of those great buildups after some ambient sounds.  It builds towards a climax that never happens.  This song is great because it is anti-climatic, instead of reaching the climax after that long buildup and reprises the original theme and very slowly unwinds.  Very nice symmetry to this song as well.
 
4. Jethro Tull - Thick as a Brick - The big one.  One of the few double sided full album length epics.  It's one of the greatest out there.  It's really great simply because the music is great, pure and simple.  It's more like a collection of songs strung together to make a great big song, there are some reprises, yes, but overall it's like a concept album more in the vein of Decemberists Hazards of Love.
 
5. ELP - Karn Evil 9 - a great big 30 minute showoff fest.  And the second half of the first impression was basically telling you that.  This epic is great simply because these 3 guys played their asses off.
 
6. King Crimson - Starless - I had to include one song from King Crimson, and Starless I think is their best epic.  This epic is great simply because it starts out as a very soft and relaxed, almost moody blues sounding ballad, and ends like a frantic balls to the wall miles davis on crack sounding jazz fusion heavy metal frenzy.  The cool thing about it is that it's hard to notice exactly where it changes, it sort of happens gradually.  Phish did things like this too on many of their songs, Reba being one of them, but King Crimson did it first.
 
Yes has a lot of other great epics (or yepics):
Heart of the Sunrise
Roundabout
On the Silent Wings of Freedom
Gates of Delirium
Starship Trooper
Perpetual Change
Homeworld
Mind Drive
Yours is No Disgrace
Dreamtime
Tales From Topographic Oceans
America
Turn of the Century
Machine Messiah
To Be Over
Hearts
Awaken
 
But Yes also has just as many epics that didn't work out so well:
 
Sound Chaser - Don't get me wrong, I love this song.  But the structure is atrocious.  It really starts off excellently.  These guys never played more proficiently.  But it really does go nowhere, you have to admit it.  After Steve Howe's amazing guitar cadenza the song just stops in its tracks.  Andersing sings acapella, and the song should end there, it'd be a damn good 6 minute song.  But instead we get a weird chachacha and some keyboard and guitar noodling to round out the 10+ minutes.
 
Endless Dream - Almost makes it as a great Yes epic but has a few major flaws.  It starts off great, and builds up well, but then goes into this weird dance section that almost ruins the mood.  Then it sort of goes into this long ending, sort of like it's descending from a great climax that never happened.  It would have worked great if there was a climax, and there wasn't that weird dance section.
 
That, That Is - Starts off fantastic with a beautiful Steve Howe acoustic piece, then gets a little weird, but still good, then changes ... a lot, then you don't know where the hell it's going, then it just gets stupid.  Really, this song didn't need to be 20 minutes long.  It's like they were trying to make a 20 minute long song just to make a 20 minute long song.  In fact, most of the songs on Keys to Ascension seem a little awkward to be as long as they are. The same could be said with a lot of the epics on The Ladder and Magnification.  Mind Drive, Homeworld, and Dreamtime being the main exceptions, those epics just feel right.


Edited by Gianthogweed - June 22 2009 at 03:35
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Points: 2 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: June 24 2009 at 02:57
Epic songs were cool. in fact I was just influenced before and after I was able to listen there
I came to realize and appreciate the beauty of those epic songs.

I was just in my secondary grade when I come across with that type of songs. And that
really amazed me. When we all think of epic songs, what comes to our mind is that this
song features rich, poetic storytelling, an epic that captures the imagination of all who
are privy to it's lyrical melody.



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Points: 8321 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: August 13 2009 at 16:37
Originally posted by crimson87 crimson87 wrote:

I don't know if epics are a easy way out , but in the 70's they were supposed to be something unique. Now you have The Flower Kings that write two epics at least per album , but none of them has the quality of one from the golden era.
 
Yeah I pretty much agree with that.
I'd add that GOOD epics are easily loved.
- Close to the Edge (Yes)
- Echoes(PF)
- Gates of Delirium (Yes)
- Dogs (PF)
- A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers (VDGG)
- Nine Feet Underground (Caravan)
- Supper's Ready (Genesis)
- Thick as a Brick (Jethro Tull)
- Histoires sans paroles (Harmonium)
 
These are good exemples.
Les mains, les pieds balancés
Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers,
Un marin mort,
Il dormira

- Paul Éluard
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