Epics easily loved
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Topic: Epics easily loved
Posted By: topofsm
Subject: Epics easily loved
Date Posted: April 11 2009 at 03:26
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As prog fans, we all have a fair share of knowledge of epic length songs. That's a huge part of being prog fans. But it seems to me that a band can get acclaim just by having one or two songs past fifteen minutes.
Lots of modern prog bands today seem to be able to construct an album, with a seemingly obligatory epic song on their album. People may say that the album isn't all that great, but it's got an awesome epic on the album. Is an epic an easy way out?
Epics do make it somewhat more fun when you're getting acquainted with tracks. After listening to an album, you may be more familiar with a couple shorter tracks and they soon become very familiar over a short period of time. However, when listening to a long track, surprises are more likely to arrive, because in a chunk of time longer than the standard 3 or 4 minutes, you're more likely to hear something you've never heard before.
In my personal opinion, there are a few albums where the long-ish songs have failed to impress me as much as it seems to have impressed others. "Hemispheres" by Rush, "Train of Thought" by Dream Theater, and "Going for the One" by Yes are the ones that arise to the top of my head at the moment (please don't ask me to find more, I'm tired as hell and should be in bed. Why I'm not is because I have no life and enjoy staying up late). Those albums take a bit of exploring, but after a short while you learn about all the short tracks, but still little surprises come through the longer listens.
Also, does the quantity of material compensate for a slight lack in quality? What I'm saying is a fairly good song that just happens to be 20 minutes will often be judged as better than a great 5 or 6 minute song, just because the length gives the listener more to explore.
Another example I can think of is Ænima by Tool. I love the songs "46 & 2", "Ænema", and "Third Eye" a lot, and I think they're all killer tracks. Now "Third Eye" is a killer journey and it's a highlight of the album for sure, but I also enjoy the other two tracks a ton, and in my opinion they're all musically on the same level. However, I rarely see praise for those other two tracks. What I'm trying to say is that "Third Eye" will more easily be loved at a place like this because there's 13 minutes of nonstop excellent music as opposed to only 6 or 7 minutes of nonstop excellent musc.
Anyone want to see if they can elaborate? ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: easytargets
Date Posted: April 11 2009 at 05:41
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Well, now I´ve changed to VDGG,but I was listening to Aenima when I first read your post
and I use to skip Third eye (I prefer Push*t, Aenema, Eulogy, 46&2 or Stinkfist better).
I think it depends on the quality of the epic and, for me, the best example, knowing you´re
a big DT fan, it´s Octavarium. It´s a standout for itself, I quite like other songs in the Octavarium
album but it shines all over cos it´s really a great epic.Even no DT fans usually says it, so it can
be some kind of an answer.
------------- The water rushes over all cities crash in the mighty wave; the final man is very small, plunging in for his final bathe |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 11 2009 at 06:16
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Well, this is a bit of a pet peeve for me, I never get the deal about epics and haven't since day one. I like some of them but sometimes it seems to me that the mere presence of an epic in the album assures masterpiece status - or close, obviously I am exaggerrating outrageously! - for it and naturally, the more epics you make, the more highly you are regarded. And is that supposed to be the point? Isn't it about making the kind of music you do best? Personally, I don't dig epics - here I am referring to songs at least over 15 minutes, if not 20 - unless they give me something the band don't achieve for me in a longish format, viz, upto 10 minutes. It pretty much beats me why epics would get so much love when two of the giants of prog, King Crimson and Gentle Giant, relied far less than most on constructing epics. I can agree that there's more to discover in an epic than in a short song but it ultimately depends on the inventiveness of the band in question. If the band is not particularly imaginative, listening to a 20-minuter would be sheer torture for me whereas an inventive band can do hell lot even in a 5-minute format. I think true progressive qualities transcend the length of the compositions though there is scope to do a lot in long formats as opposed to say a hard rock band. But from conversations - on the internet or in person - I have had with prog rock fans, it seems to me they are generally so habituated to listening to epics that they very nearly scorn the short songs.
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Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: April 11 2009 at 14:03
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^Well I certainly don't dislike epics if that's what you do (correct me if I'm wrong). I can name several off the top of my head that are absolutely brilliant.
Maybe I could explain it better if I said that some epics aren't unimaginative, but they aren't really masterpieces either. This is something I didn't bring up in my original post. Some epics are great, while others aren't. There are some not so great ones that either repeat sections too long just to extend the length of the song (padding) while others cannot expand on an idea very well so they just move to a different riff, or tempo, or key or something else. The former ones are easier to spot. I'm talking about the latter. It's like stitching a bunch of unrelated songs together. Now the shifts in mood take a lot longer to become familiar with since they're stuck together on one track with no breaks in the music. Since there are more surprises, it's regarded as brilliant. However, the tracks all divided up properly, each a song by it's own, aren't viewed as warmly because they're only a few minutes long and they appear to be their own idea.
As an example, applying my DT fan-ness, I will use "In the Name of God", "A Change of Seasons", and "Octavarium". I feel that ITNOG suffers from too much padding, ideas take too long to transition from one to another. Riffs are repeated pretty often, and although it changes tempoes and musical 'flavors', they take too long in each section. I think there's some great music there, it just needs to be cut down a bit.
ACOS, on the other hand, has perfectly good length sections, and isn't repeated mindlessly so that fans will go "Hey, a song over 15 minutes, it must be great!" However, sometimes I feel that they change ideas too much. Some of the sections don't seem to transition from one to another well, and it seems hard at times to believe it's all one piece.
"Octavarium", on the other hand, seems to have a near perfect build, and ideas transition well into each other. I consider it a brilliant example of an epic, and there's no doubt in my mind that it's tied together into an outstanding composition.
I used these 3 because more people are familiar with DT, and some people might lose my credibility if I bash bands that I'm less familiar with. Anyways, these three songs have some great ideas and all have some incredible music, it's just that I feel two are not presented in the best way possible. In any event, they seem best loved because of their song length. -------------
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Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 11 2009 at 14:33
I've never worried about the length of a song, just whether it's good, and Awaken, for example, is DAMNED good
------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: martinprog77
Date Posted: April 11 2009 at 15:07
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never let go
gates of delirium
whish you were here
close to the edge
------------- Nothing can last there are no second chances. Never give a day away. Always live for today. |
Posted By: Roland113
Date Posted: April 11 2009 at 20:07
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I think I agree, though I've lost track of the initial statement. My personal source of irritation is the padding that goes on in a lot of epics, some of my pet peeves: The last minute of 'I am the Sun' by The Flower Kings. Once the music is over, the last bass note resonates for like forty seconds, why? 'Milliontown' by Frost* has a minute of gentle piano that is so quiet compared to the rest of the song that's an after thought, not to mention it sounds suspiciously like Mad Man Moon. Some of the Transatlantic epics go on waaay too long, 'Duel with the Devil' should end three minutes and twenty one seconds earlier than it does. I detect the Ronnie Stolt influence there (and don't get me wrong, I love just about everything that Ronnie does except for the 'let's slow the epic down for the big powerful chord progression to finish it off', it's getting a bit cliche). And to address one of your specifics, topo, I think the first seven minutes of 'Octovarium' is a little overindulgent. 'Octovarium' would be a stronger piece without Jordan's extended solo (IMNSHO). My point is that many epics (in my opinion) aren't as good as they could be because too much padding is added and at times, I really do think the padding is added just to have bragging rights. I can imagine the guys sitting around at progfests, 'I wrote a twenty-five minute song' , 'yeah, well I wrote a twenty-six minute one'. I'm joking with the bragging rights, but only to a certain extent. I've read more than one review of 'Experiments in Mass Appeal' that expressed disappointment as there wasn't an epic on it, before they even listened to the CD. Genesis is my favorite band, but give me 'Cinema Show' or 'Dance on a Volcano' over 'Supper's Ready' any day (Don't get me wrong, I love 'Supper's Ready', just not as much some of their other songs). ------------- -------someone please tell him to delete this line, he looks like a noob------- I don't have an unnatural obsession with Disney Princesses, I have a fourteen year old daughter and coping mechanisms. |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: April 11 2009 at 21:53
| I don't know if epics are a easy way out , but in the 70's they were supposed to be something unique. Now you have The Flower Kings that write two epics at least per album , but none of them has the quality of one from the golden era. |
Posted By: prog4evr
Date Posted: April 11 2009 at 23:07
DAMN RIGHT! Probably the best epic Yes ever composed - and it one of their shorter ones, just under 16 minutes... |
lazland wrote:Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: April 11 2009 at 23:10
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Personally, I don't track length has anything to do with it. Others here may feel differently, but I think the reason why certain epicly long tracks are praised like they are is becauxse the artists in question were able to hold our interest for twenty minutes, which impresses us. I don't think a track is good just because it is long, rather, a long track is considered great if it is able to keep the listener enthralled the entire time it is on.
There are plenty of not-so-interesting long tracks to be found, and I certainly don't like them, and am not afraid to admit it (CttE, Hemispheres, sections of 6 Degrees). Justbecause they are long means nothing to me.
In fact, I think at times it can be beneficial to the artist if they DON'T jump on the 'epic' bandwagon right away. Debut albums are typically not the place to go right out and compose a lengthy work, because you should usually build up to something like that. It's better in my opinino if a band makes a couple of really great epics during their careers, while the remainder of their works remain fairly avergae length.
Then again, I guess you could go by what your own idea of 'epic' is. To me, thirteen tro seventeen minutes isn't an epic. Twenty minutes or more is.
Anyway, I'm rambling. The point I'm trying to make is: to me, an epic track does NOT an instant classic make. There is more to it than that, and I have seen just as many artists fail at it as succeed.
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Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: April 11 2009 at 23:28
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^ Do you think that people will praise a 20 minute song more for simply holding their attention or a 5 minute song that gives them a huge rush of energy or brings them to tears? Something tells me a lot of fans prefer the former, just because it seems to be better, if a bit more superficially. -------------
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: April 11 2009 at 23:45
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Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: April 11 2009 at 23:53
But say it's not a great epic, just a fairly decent one. One that's maybe slightly padded, with a few good riffs, just a couple great ideas, but it just misses the mark. Something like "Ritual" by Yes. Maybe if it was on an album like relayer where it's the epic on the album taking up one side of the record with a couple tracks on the other side. Do you think it would garner more praise for keeping your attention for 20 minutes, rather than a fantastic 7 minute song on the level of "21st Century Schizoid Man" or "Watcher of the Skies"? -------------
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Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: April 12 2009 at 00:02
I see what you are saying, but honestly, an epic does need to be pretty much fantastic the entire time in order to hold my interest. So I guess I was indeed saying that the truly deserving epics are the ones that stay fresh the entire time they are being played, and not just so-so quality.
I guess I should have been more clear, but for me, something holding my interest for as long as twnety minutes or more must be pretty great all the way through, otherwise my interest WOULDN'T have been held. I mean, I can listen to something off of Gryphon's "Red Queen to Gryphon Three", and I admit, I start counting the stripes on my wall after awhile.
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 12 2009 at 04:44
I don't dislike the concept of an epic per se but I do think it often becomes an easy way out to win over listeners, by stretching an idea beyond what is necessary so that it reaches close to 20 minutes. You have referred to padding in this post, well, that's the sort of thing I dislike. Unless a band can fill the entire running length with purpose, they would be better off writing a 10-12 minuter. You have asked a little later in the thread whether a 20 minute song would get praise for holding attention instead of a 7 minute fantastic song? In general, that seems to be the case, but personally I would like the latter. It takes more time to sort out an epic but after doing so, you still may not have a masterpiece on your hands and why a not-so-great epic would be preferable to a brilliant longish song beats me, of course everybody has their preferences so I can only speak for myself. Focus's Moving Waves is a good example. Eruption is a set of decent blues jams stretched far beyond their proper running length and I would always prefer listening to Hocus Pocus over it, because Eruption fails to capture the quirkiness that makes Hocus Pocus such a terrific song and at least in my opinion is an epic for the sake of being an epic. I would also like to point out that especially in symph prog and also in the Rush epics, a multi-song suite structure is used so the only thing that distinguishes the epic from the longish songs is that this time the long/short songs are linked to one another. Whereas something like Magma's Kohntarkohz's Part II is much more preferable for me because the track is not stretched to reach a long length but there is actually a flowing sequence of musical ideas connected seamlessly. |
Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: April 13 2009 at 07:50
Lol this isn't topic related... But.... I LOVE YOUR SIGNATURE! I have (well my dad has) ELP Trilogy on Record hehe. I think epics are easily loved, just because I generally think more work has been put toward them. Some Epics which I love include Marillion's Grendel, Yes' Gates Of Delirium, Genesis' Supper's Ready, and ELP's Karn Evil 9. These are examples of fantastic epics in my opinion, and generally I think epics are good things. ------------- 
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 13 2009 at 13:28
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Hi,
There are just as many epics out there today as there were yesterday ... The difference?
Ohh, well, let's see ... in those days it used to be hip to carry a joint and dress funny and weird, or maybe even put a flower up your arse-holiness ... but these days, there are times when someone is playing a $ 3k bass or a $ 5k gueetar and we think that it's progressive simply because the guitarist does not do Jaco, or Eric! And the band name, of course ... is something esoteric that supposedly means something ... and we love those discussions here!
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Posted By: Nuke
Date Posted: April 13 2009 at 23:44
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It seems to me that when the time comes around for an epic, most bands will put an extra bit of effort into the epic. That's not always true, but when I look at my records, I do seem to prefer the epic songs on many of them. I doubt it is a bias, considering that I actually prefer songs that are direct to ones that meander most of the time. At the same time, even though it might not be a personal bias for me, I do think the bias does exist. People will cheer on a band for being more progressive, even if their music got worse in the process. Long songs will really excite people even if the short ones are better. Look at Karn Evil 9. Tocatta is just as good as Karn Evil 9. Why does Karn Evil 9 get so much more credit than Tocatta?
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Seabury">  
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Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: April 14 2009 at 09:29
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I personally don't object to epics, but as many of you said, the music must be good, not just full with a lot of padding, filler moments and so on. I also enjoyed very short songs, like the small acustic songs that each Jethro Tull album used to have, as long as the music was good and could convey it's message.
It seems to me that in the old days, prog bands used to write long pieces, and that became a trademark of prog music, so much so that now, practically every album must have one to be considered prog, and the quality of the music is not necessarily an important factor. Prog became prog because the inventiveness, the callenging factor in the music, lyrics and composition,the opportunity to experiment and the quality of the songs. Obviously, long pieces gave the bands the chance to do that, and they could not only expand, but to express their musical ideas, showing their musical ability at the same time, so if modern day prog bands can achieve this goal, I don't mind epics, short or medium lenght songs, as long as the music stands out for itself.
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Posted By: sealchan
Date Posted: April 14 2009 at 14:29
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I think many progressive rock fans like getting caught up in the "emotive world" that a song, of any length, provides. The more skillful the musicians and the more evocative the lyrics, the bigger the world. And a long song simply creates a possibility for a greater world. But no epic length song can out-match a good concept album, especially since a concept album could as easily use recurrent musical themes just as easily as any epic, perhaps moreso. The concept creates the conceptual world that the emotions of the music fill in and both the story and/or the concept and/or the recurrence of musical themes ties that all up in one great emotive world to experience.
But when it comes to single, epic length songs, the greatest are those with jams or instrumental sections which make me feel as if they tell a story. The instrumental "Larks' Tongues in Aspic, Part One" sounded so much to me like a story, I even wrote one for it. "The Cinema Show" has such a heavenly progression of an instrumental centerpiece that I feel like I've been on a journey after I have listened to it. Having that jam spill out into a reprise of the openning melody helps to make Selling England By The Pound one of the greatest prog albums. To me that is what lies at the heart of progressive rock, the story-like, balanced progressive instrumental part of the song. That is the true progression in prog rock. You get that in "Awaken" where the music moves further up to the skies after leaving the vocals behind and then gently, suddenly drops down to the quiet earth only to slowly build up again to where the vocals come back in. Even in a simple, straightforward way you get that in "Starship Trooper" with its famous progressive jam ending which for me is archetypal of progressive rock as a musical form.
I've scrutinized "Milliontown" recently and I enjoy that epic very much. It has a section towards the end that approaches that sense of a journey-jam, but not so much as the above examples do for me.
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: April 14 2009 at 14:46
I tend to agree with this point of view. If I think about the 'classic' epics of the golden age of prog, I get the impression it was much easier to the musicians to sustain the effort involved in writing a song over 10-15 minutes in length. Nowadays, far too many epics sound somewhat contrived - technically brilliant, yes, but ultimately cold and sterile, and requiring quite a bit of padding to reach the desired length. In my humble opinion, the best examples of modern epics are the ones that have a less orthodox structure, so to say - like The Decemberists' "The Island" or "The Crane Wife", basically a series of separate songs held together by a common 'fil rouge', or even placed at different points of an album. In such a way, the various parts of the epic, being self-contained, develop their own individual character while at the same time working together to form a harmonious whole. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: April 14 2009 at 15:55
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My answer to this will be along the same lines as those that I have given for the various perfect song length threads. A song/track/composition (take your pick, for a 20 minute composition, "song" just doesnt fit right) should only ever be as long as it takes for the band to fully realise the idea(s). Too often bands arent capable of making their ideas work in a full epic (15 minutes+ in my book) and this isnt a new phenomenan, classic bands of the 70's strugled at times as well. The results would either be a song full of padding or a disjointed mass that fails to work as a whole. A good example would be the longer songs off of Disillusions Back to Times of Splender, the title track at nearly 15 minutes is amazing, and wouldnt benefit from either being extended or shortened, but the longer Sleep of Restless Hours (17 minutes) is probably about 5 minutes too long, each section is extended beyond the point of the ideas life. Epics, however, will always grab my attention at first because I want to hear whether the band is capable of sustaining its ideas coherently and without padding for the duration, but with several albums it will be the shorter songs that I remember best after I've had the album for a while. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: nahnite
Date Posted: April 14 2009 at 16:34
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Epics have always grabbed my attention. They, generally speaking, have to be more well-arranged and thought-out to grab hold and KEEP the listener's attention.
A few that come to mind immediately:
2112
Octavarium
Anything off TFTO
Supper's Ready
Six Degrees Of Inner Turbulence (disc two is breathtaking)
Black Rose Immortal
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Posted By: Gustavo Froes
Date Posted: April 14 2009 at 19:51
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Posted By: valravennz
Date Posted: April 14 2009 at 21:31
I also, tend to agree with this sentiment. I have a difficult time trying to think of a decent epic from beyond the 70's. Epic to me is anything over 14 minutes. The post-70's epics that stand out for me include "Grendel" - Marillion: "Microdeath Softstar" - Phideaux; "The Sky Moves Sideways - Phase 1" - Porcupine Tree and "Milliontown" - Frost* - these from my own album collection. Scanning through said collection, I have noticed that very few post-70's artists attempt an Epic greater than 13 minutes. Many sit between 10 and 13 minutes which is long enough imo to put forward the composers ideas to the listener - in most cases. However, where there are exceptions, they are generally very good pieces (as above). The trend now seems to be, instead of writing one long piece, to break the epic down into bite size manageable listening chunks - a good example is Marillion's - "Misplaced Childhood" - the central theme running through the work, tidily ties each song together, creating an epic masterpiece!
On the whole, it really does not matter how long the music piece is. It comes down to an individuals perception of time and appreciation of the music. Some of us will always struggle with very long musical epics. I prefer the 10-13 minute variety.  ------------- 
"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence" - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: santiagomo87
Date Posted: April 14 2009 at 22:50
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Yes I get your point and agree with you, I definitely think that epics are being overused these days, and that albums may get a higher rating just for having a long epic. A good example I can think of is Beardfish albums sleeping in traffic part 1 and 2: part 2 has a little bit higher rating and I think it is because of the epic, don't get me wrong i love that epic and think it is the best song of that album, but I think sleeping in traffic part 1 has much better songs and flow even better as an album.
A few years ago when I was new to prog I wanted to hear all the old epics and then the new ones and I was always impressed with lenghty songs. Now I have discovered real beauty in some short songs prog or not. When I now look for an album from a new band, I kind of avoid bands with epics and stuff, I think it's just not what I'm looking for right now. ------------- Santiago |
Posted By: el dingo
Date Posted: April 15 2009 at 03:19
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Bless 'em all bless 'em all, the long and the short.........
If I love a track I really don't mind if it's 2:20 or 22:20 in length.
I guess we've all heard works we wish were either longer or shorter. But as someone so rightly said earlier, it's what the composer/artist wants you to hear that counts. ------------- It's not that I can't find worth in anything, it's just that I can't find worth in enough. |
Posted By: Matte
Date Posted: April 15 2009 at 09:57
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Many artists in the prog scene today tend to write long epics just because they are supposed to - but very often there is a lack of relevance. In my opinion the attitude concerning "epics" were different back in the seventies. In those days songs were long when they needed to be. A good example is the song Baker St Muse (from Jethro Tull on the album Minstrel In The Gallery). In this well written piece Ian Anderson has an interesting story to tell and it goes on for 16 + minutes without losing focus - despite all the variation in mood and tempo that it contents. And in my opinion modern prog-bands sometimes has to learn from these old giants that the keyword is "focus". Even if a song is multilayered and rich in complexity it can never reach masterpiece status if it can´t keep the listener focused all the way to the end.
Quality will allways win over quantity, but when quality AND quantity goes hand in hand there will be footprints in prog-heaven.
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Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: April 18 2009 at 17:50
the best prog epic I heard in last 3-5 years was RITUAL's "A Dangerous Journey". You notice it's 27 min long only on the 3rd or 4th listening, I'm telling you
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Posted By: DJPuffyLemon
Date Posted: April 18 2009 at 21:26
Also, 70's prog never really had that much focus. If you notice, Supper's Ready, Lizard, A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers, Karn Evil 9, and all sorts of other so called "ESSENTIAL" prog epics ALL lose their focus after 5 minutes, (except Karn Evil 9, but that's an epic in 3 unrelated parts anyway). They're basically a hodgepodge of ideas glued together. I guess the concept I'm putting across is that: even back in the 70's, prog was making longer songs because they thought they had to, not because they necessarily needed that time to make a song. |
Posted By: Travatar
Date Posted: April 18 2009 at 23:17
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The two that come to mind immediately for me are Anesthetize, by Porcupine Tree and In the Presence of Enemies (Parts 1 and 2) by Dream Theater (certainly not the only long song to be based off of a comic book, but one of the best I've heard yet.) ------------- The principle of strategy is having one thing, to know ten thousand things. -Miyamoto Musashi |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 18 2009 at 23:50
Of course, it would be an over-generalization to suggest that somehow every epic out in the 70s was a masterpiece. I certainly haven't felt that way. At least most of the bands from the melo side of prog were even back then better off making 10 minuters, I think. As you rightly said, 20 minuters tend to be two or three longish songs stuck together, what's so epic about that?
Yes got it right with Close To The Edge but I would classify that as an exception to the rule. |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: April 19 2009 at 02:08
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Ok, this was a point I brought up in one of the recent Mastodon polls.
For those who have listened to Crack the Skye, most people's favorite tracks are either "The Czar" or "The Last Baron", around 11 minutes and 13 minutes respectively, both longer than the other songs averaging around 5:30. Once I looked at the track lengths before I even heard the album I knew that those two songs would be the most loved songs on the album, because they were the longest. Now both are the top ones in the polls.
THIS PARAGRAPH CONTAINS SUBJECTIVE OPINION: "The Czar" doesn't deserve the praise it gets. It barely changes mood, only changing speed for the second movement and then going back into the slow sludgey tempo, then going back to the refrain of the first movement. But it's 11 minutes long, so people still say it's incredible anyways.
By the way, does anyone besides me think that the fourth movement of "The Czar" (Spiral) is kind of pointless since it's basically the first movement at the end of the song. I even hesitate to call it a multi-part composition just because of that. -------------
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Posted By: mr.cub
Date Posted: April 19 2009 at 11:19
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As long as it takes to get the musical idea across is as long as the song needs to be. I'll use TFTO as an example. When I first listened to the album I was drawn to The Revealing of the Science of the God. Everything after that seemed to be fluff, an excuse for a four song double album...how wrong I was. Somehow, I'm engaged for the full 80+ minutes of music. Then there is a song like 'Im So Tired' or 'For No One' by The Beatles; both two minute numbers and I'm always asking myself for more! But in their two minutes they say all they need to, much like in its 80+ minutes Yes says all they need to Honestly, I don't think anyone can really be a judge for all whether or not an album or a lengthy song has 'filler'; this 'filler' may appeal to one person while bore another to tears. I much prefer a structured and written epic over a directionless 25 minute Phish jam (Allman Brothers performances are a different story). Another person may like the live spontaneous nature of a Phish jam over Baker St Muse; its just a matter of taste.
A good song is a good song, I actually enjoy the shorter numbers on Foxtrot as much as Supper's Ready... For me, I do give longer songs a little more benefit of the doubt when it comes to sections without much context or substance; but as long as they don't dominate the song, I can live with 16 of 20 minutes of great music ------------- 
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: April 19 2009 at 11:45
Maybe. I certainly don't like the notion that for a band that wants to play "prog rock" they feel beholden to have a 20 minute song on their album, but unfortunately that does seem to come with the territory. Of course, being prog nuts themselves, I'm sure many modern prog musicians get a big thrill out of writing a huge epic - the problem is the results are often mixed. Point is, I just don't like the idea that "epics" are mandatory. Gentle Giant didn't think so either - try attacking their prog credentials. edit: that doesn't mean that I still don't get a little tingly when a CD arrives and I see a long track on it  this sort of thing is in a proggers DNA  |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 19 2009 at 20:10
 What I said earlier in the thread. Prog certainly goes well beyond something as superficial as length of the track.
Too true! |
Posted By: The Truth
Date Posted: April 19 2009 at 20:45
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Some epics I love that most people overlook are Sum of No Reason by the Flower Kings, Octavarium by Dream Theater, and (to through some Krautrock in here) Syntelmans March of the Roaring Seventies by Amon Duul II
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Posted By: Phideaux
Date Posted: April 20 2009 at 17:53
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As a consumer of Epics (Lighthouse Keepers, Supper's Ready, Abbey Road Side 2, We're Only In It For The Money, Gates Of Delerium, Grendel) I will say I love them. However, when they are bad, they are WELL BAD (A Guy Named Sid, That,That Is, In A Gadda Da Vida -- just kidding that's a classic). I think there are often multiple songs ganged together and reprised and variated. That is certainly NOT possible in a 3 minute Beatle song (although they managed to do EVERYTHING ELSE HUMANLY POSSIBLE within the context of pop/experimental music up to that point). A 6 minute song (Gentle Giant, Crimson) allows for variation and restating of themes, but you can't thread too many multiple themes through without it becoming too dissipated. As a consumer, it is so satisfying when I know a long form song very well and we start to come in for the landing. The last "song" of both Lighthouse and Gates are so beautiful, you almost feel that you had to go through the journey to get there. A song like Dogs by Floyd works because you have the opportunity to REALLY spend time in the minutae of the music. The sheer slow growing detail is exotic and intoxicating. When the horns restate the "You never give me your money" theme at the end of Abbey Road suite, it's like a regal fanfare and a welcome nod back to the original theme. I am also a creator of long form compositions. I love my short songs and especially songs in the 6 - 8 minute range, but to have the option of stretching out is very fun. Obviously a lot of us make music for the sheer hell of it. The song is 26 minutes because it can be! There is the danger of having too many epics. Up until now we have had one (Chupacabras) which broke the 20 minute mark. On our upcoming album there is another called "Waiting For The Axe" however, we will be breaking it up into shorter "tracks" in order to conceal that fact. But the album after that already has an "epic" 78% in the can. That song came out of nowhere and is called "Star Of Light". It was never intended to be a long form, but it's been growing and there are certain elements that the song is calling for and we are obeying its call. That will bring us up to 3, which is dangerously close to Flower Kings level :-) The even worse thing is that we are resisting the recording of an album that is already written which consists soley of two 26 minute songs "Infernal" and "Eternal". I didn't want to undertake those songs just yet because they are too detailed and complicated for me to have the stamina just now... Soon I will need Epics Anonymous... |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: April 20 2009 at 18:10
I tend to agree with you on a lot of that, and though I must admit, I only own one of your albums so far (Ghost Story), I really like it, and can see why you don't need the epic songs in order to create memorable themes.
But I think a lot of bands, unlike yours, have trouble being able to do a lot of things in a little amount of time, so the epics are better suited for their style. If an artist needs time to express themselves fully, then certainly I don't mind at all the long length because it naturally fits what the artist is trying to say.
But like you said, when epics are bad, they are atrocious. I think it's mainly because certain musicians' hearts aren't truly in it, and they are merely writing an epic piece because they feel they have to in order to be 'Prog enough', which of course as far as I am concerned is absurd. A short song can be just as Progressive and memorable as a long one, sometimes more so, if the songwriting is high enough calibur (I think songs such as 'A Day in the Life' and 'Tomorrow Never Knows' are prime examples of this).
Bottom line: length has nothing to do with it; at least not in my mind. I gather from your post that you tend to agree with that as well.
I sure would like to hear those two epics of yours someday, though, because I have no doubt they will be very entertaining.
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: April 26 2009 at 14:57
That and "Gates Of Delerium," certainly. And who doesn't love "Karn Evil 9"? I must admit, I got into "epics" early, if you count Tangerine Dream's side-length pieces, which they did all the way up through Poland. ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: progrules
Date Posted: April 27 2009 at 01:46
Interesting post Roland, well done ! About the bragging and padding: how about the hidden track phenomenon ! First Light by Shadow Gallery for instance clocks 34 minutes but actually lasts hardly 20. It's laughable and in my opinion a disgrace a band does these things. It's simply a fraud ! Same goes for Camel's The Hour Candle (Harbour of Tears) with only 12 real minutes instead of the promised 23 !! I hate this sh*t
 .But when we're talking about REAL epics like The Odyssey or Monsters & Men (you know who) I can't help myself but then there's nothing that can beat an epic ! If I make a top 100 of all time I guess at least 80% of the songs will be above 10 minutes and 60% above 15. But those are the real ones that deserve to be called epics and no frauds. ------------- A day without prog is a wasted day |
Posted By: The Acolyte
Date Posted: April 29 2009 at 18:36
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I think that's an interesting but useless discussion...some people like epics and some don't. Period. I, for example, enjoy some of them, for example, i love "A plague of lighthouse keepers", that one is simply the best epic in Prog in my opinion...but on the other hand, songs like "close to the edge" or "supper's ready" don't like me that much, don't get me wrong, they´re good, but not enough for me.
That's my opinion. Bye. ------------- "…but would I leave you in this moment of your trial?" |
Posted By: BrufordFreak
Date Posted: May 01 2009 at 08:09
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I understand and share your concern that a long song ensures a group or album's inclusion into Prog mania or Prog classica. There are a lot of fair to poor songs out there that run longer than seven or eight minutes. BUT I am SO EXCITED to share and promote a find I've had, thanks to ProgArchives:
ODYSSEY "The Greatest Tale" from Musea Records and Colossus Magazine in 2004 is AMAZING! Nine progrock artists from seven different countries collaborated to tell the tale of Ulysses/Odysseus' trials and tribulations while trying to get home after the Trojan War. NINE PIECES, 3CDS, EVERY SONG OVER 20 MINUTES, With no less than five masterpieces, IMO. (Nexus, Aether, Glass Hammer, C.A.P., Tempano). Truly a MUST for any prog lover, prog-epic lover, music lover, art lover, theater lover. GET IT! ------------- Drew Fisher https://progisaliveandwell.blogspot.com/ |
Posted By: progrules
Date Posted: May 02 2009 at 03:05
I support your general thoughts about this threepiece. I think every true progger should have this one.
In detail though I believe Simon Says, Minimum Vital and Nathan Mahl are better than C.A.P. But that's a matter of taste of course. I think at least seven from the nine tracks are (near) masterpieces.
By the way: I can also strongly recommend Spaghetti Epic 3 (recent release) with three at least as great epics as on Odyssey. And also Spaghetti 1 and 7 Samurai are really terrific ! Check them out I would like to suggest. ------------- A day without prog is a wasted day |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: May 03 2009 at 05:23
And how about the mini-graphic novel with the excellent artwork? Almost worth keeping just for that, but hey, the music's great, too!  ------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: fernandobz
Date Posted: May 03 2009 at 13:53
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The Flower Kings that write two epics at least per album , but none of them has the quality of one from the golden era, ub ¨70s
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Posted By: Lucent
Date Posted: May 03 2009 at 13:53
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I only have 4 words: The Sky Moves Sideways
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 03 2009 at 13:56
I agree wholeheartedly. I was elated when Steve performed it on the last tour. |
Posted By: The Quiet One
Date Posted: May 03 2009 at 14:00
I really can't think of epics from 00's that can match the innovation of those from the 70's, but as far the musicianship and composition, I think they can match them, like All of the Above by Transatlantic. |
Posted By: Lucent
Date Posted: May 03 2009 at 14:04
Speaking of old PT material, I'd love to hear them perform Mute live, if it were ever possible.
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: May 03 2009 at 14:11
I think the only PT epics that will be performed in the future will be new ones. Unfortunately. I personally hope that they put Anesthetize to bed now but of course we are being promised a 55 minute epic (or song cycle as SW calls it) concept piece for the new album. I wish I had seen them in 95 or 96 when they performed their more adventurous material. |
Posted By: Geizao
Date Posted: June 05 2009 at 05:09
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Atom Heart Mother is heavy and rough-pysche number by Pink Floyd. Yes it is.
It's an epic, but yet it's easily loved as well. And Tarkus by ELP is the another one.
"Cheerio" is too short. But this Jethro Tull's number is blowing off and turning to
some kind of a beautiful-sorrowed departurement . It's easy to loved. You know it.
And "Life Is A Long Song" sings Jethro Tull.
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Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 05:31
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What about PT's Russia On Ice ? It's beautiful all the time. And by the way, is it just my opinion, or are most of people overlooking Lightbulb Sun for others, like Fear of the Blank Planet. But nevermind, they all are good except one. I listened it once and I instantly started to hate this album. Their first. It's abomination of their otherwise good music. DT's Metropolis part 2, could it be considered as a epic ? It's concept album, so maybe ... Lenghth of Script for the Jester's Tear is quite long too ... and epic Moon Safari's Other Half of the Sky, which is in fact collection of few songs with common theme. ------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Posted By: GaryB
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 09:05
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In my opinion there are two kinds of "epics". The first being one long song and the other being a long composition consisting of three or four parts. Both of these types of epics often took up one side of an LP.
Personally, I prefer the multi-part epics because they're not too repetitious. Usually each part is very different so it's like four variations on the same theme.
On the other hand, "one siders" like Gravedigger by Janus can just go on and on and on.
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Posted By: Nov
Date Posted: June 06 2009 at 10:25
In your opinion. There's been a few off-hand comments about TFK in this thread which is a shame. I'll list a few Flower Kings epics that I love every bit as much as any 70s classic: Garden Of Dreams The Truth Will Set You Free I Am The Sun Devil's Playground Monsters and Men Stardust We Are Humanizzimo To me, those are glorious epics, beautifully played and superbly composed. They sound natural and organic - like the band are meant to be playing this kind of music rather than the painting-by-numbers prog we get from less gifted musicians. Even if you don't think those tracks are quite as good as Supper's Ready or CTTE (etc), they should still be applauded for continuing to fly the flag for the prog epic. And maybe if you could just accept that you don't enjoy them quite as much as the 70s classics then you could be enjoying this band rather than criticizing them. Personally speaking, I feel absolutely blessed to know this band exists and to hear them constantly producing music that I enjoy every bit as much as the bands that I grew up with. |
Posted By: Gianthogweed
Date Posted: June 22 2009 at 03:31
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I generally prefer epics to short songs on my prog albums, but there have been some epics that just "don't work". First here are some of the examples of some of the best epics:
1. Yes - Close to The Edge - this one comes to mind first when I think of epic, probably because it's one of the first I've heard. It's just so perfect. The symmetry is great, the climax is great, it works great live, but I don't feel Yes have played it as well as they did back in the 70s when they had more energy and rocked it a little harder.
2. Genesis - Supper's Ready - Probably ties with CTTE as the best epic. A long one too at 22+ minutes. This one is great mainly for it's staggeringly grand climax, which works best live. I don't think any other epic reaches a climax as big as Supper's ready.
3. Pink Floyd - Echoes - Another classic epic that has one of those great buildups after some ambient sounds. It builds towards a climax that never happens. This song is great because it is anti-climatic, instead of reaching the climax after that long buildup and reprises the original theme and very slowly unwinds. Very nice symmetry to this song as well.
4. Jethro Tull - Thick as a Brick - The big one. One of the few double sided full album length epics. It's one of the greatest out there. It's really great simply because the music is great, pure and simple. It's more like a collection of songs strung together to make a great big song, there are some reprises, yes, but overall it's like a concept album more in the vein of Decemberists Hazards of Love.
5. ELP - Karn Evil 9 - a great big 30 minute showoff fest. And the second half of the first impression was basically telling you that. This epic is great simply because these 3 guys played their asses off.
6. King Crimson - Starless - I had to include one song from King Crimson, and Starless I think is their best epic. This epic is great simply because it starts out as a very soft and relaxed, almost moody blues sounding ballad, and ends like a frantic balls to the wall miles davis on crack sounding jazz fusion heavy metal frenzy. The cool thing about it is that it's hard to notice exactly where it changes, it sort of happens gradually. Phish did things like this too on many of their songs, Reba being one of them, but King Crimson did it first.
Yes has a lot of other great epics (or yepics):
Heart of the Sunrise
Roundabout
On the Silent Wings of Freedom
Gates of Delirium
Starship Trooper
Perpetual Change
Homeworld
Mind Drive
Yours is No Disgrace
Dreamtime
Tales From Topographic Oceans
America
Turn of the Century
Machine Messiah
To Be Over
Hearts
Awaken
But Yes also has just as many epics that didn't work out so well:
Sound Chaser - Don't get me wrong, I love this song. But the structure is atrocious. It really starts off excellently. These guys never played more proficiently. But it really does go nowhere, you have to admit it. After Steve Howe's amazing guitar cadenza the song just stops in its tracks. Andersing sings acapella, and the song should end there, it'd be a damn good 6 minute song. But instead we get a weird chachacha and some keyboard and guitar noodling to round out the 10+ minutes.
Endless Dream - Almost makes it as a great Yes epic but has a few major flaws. It starts off great, and builds up well, but then goes into this weird dance section that almost ruins the mood. Then it sort of goes into this long ending, sort of like it's descending from a great climax that never happened. It would have worked great if there was a climax, and there wasn't that weird dance section.
That, That Is - Starts off fantastic with a beautiful Steve Howe acoustic piece, then gets a little weird, but still good, then changes ... a lot, then you don't know where the hell it's going, then it just gets stupid. Really, this song didn't need to be 20 minutes long. It's like they were trying to make a 20 minute long song just to make a 20 minute long song. In fact, most of the songs on Keys to Ascension seem a little awkward to be as long as they are. The same could be said with a lot of the epics on The Ladder and Magnification. Mind Drive, Homeworld, and Dreamtime being the main exceptions, those epics just feel right.
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Posted By: alexisj
Date Posted: June 24 2009 at 02:57
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Epic songs were cool. in fact I was just influenced before and after I was able to listen there I came to realize and appreciate the beauty of those epic songs. I was just in my secondary grade when I come across with that type of songs. And that really amazed me. When we all think of epic songs, what comes to our mind is that this song features rich, poetic storytelling, an epic that captures the imagination of all who are privy to it's lyrical melody. < id="gwProxy" ="">< ="jsCall;" id="jsProxy" =""> ------------- "My success was unexpected, yes, but not accidental." from http://www.dressup.me/ - dress up games and http://hair.dressup.me/ - hair games community, Phil |
Posted By: Tsevir Leirbag
Date Posted: August 13 2009 at 16:37
Yeah I pretty much agree with that.
I'd add that GOOD epics are easily loved.
- Close to the Edge (Yes)
- Echoes(PF)
- Gates of Delirium (Yes)
- Dogs (PF)
- A Plague of Lighthouse Keepers (VDGG)
- Nine Feet Underground (Caravan)
- Supper's Ready (Genesis)
- Thick as a Brick (Jethro Tull)
- Histoires sans paroles (Harmonium)
These are good exemples. ------------- Les mains, les pieds balancés Sur tant de mers, tant de planchers, Un marin mort, Il dormira - Paul Éluard |