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oliverstoned 
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 Posted: January 20 2007 at 02:51 |
 MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ sorry, but cables don't burn in. That's a definitive myth.
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Solder need burn'in (a kind of alchemy at a molecular level with the solder, Sean trane which is an expert agreed on that point). In the case of cables featuring filtering boxes (and there are on power, modulation and speakers ones), it's even more obvious as these boxes feature electronic compounds who need a burn-in.
Edited by Tony R - January 20 2007 at 11:21
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N Ellingworth
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Posted: January 20 2007 at 03:48 |
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Sorry but I have to agree with Mike here, I've studied electronics and used to build a few circuits myself, electronic parts do not need to be burnt in, instead as they're used they slowly get worse over time (as is the case with one of my guitar amps).
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oliverstoned
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Posted: January 20 2007 at 04:21 |
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That's wrong. It needs burn-in and it needs heating, like
the class A headphones amp Sugden le Bijou (several hours).
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oliverstoned
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Posted: January 20 2007 at 04:32 |
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...and there's a big difference between studying theories and listening to the devices. Some theory said that tube distors more than solidstate (and that's "true" if you look at the mesures), but eventually an another one which is related to harmonics explain why tube sound better than solidstate. Eventually Mike agreed on that point after many many fights, after i repeated the same endlessly.
"instead as they're used they slowly get worse over time (as is the case with one of my guitar amps). "
However i agree on that point, the more electronic heats (class A), the more it degrade.
Edited by oliverstoned - January 20 2007 at 04:50
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N Ellingworth
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Posted: January 20 2007 at 05:40 |
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Of course there's a difference between theory and real life I never said that a slightly degraded circuit wouldn't sound better than a new one I was speaking from a purely theoretical point of view, and yes valves do sound better than solid state but that's all due to the way the human ear works.
For best electrical performance a brand new circuit is best but for reproducing sound in a way thats pleasing to the human ear? I think the jury is out as everyone has different preferences.
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oliverstoned
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Posted: January 20 2007 at 05:43 |
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Not degraded, i don't think. I just talk about a run-in period, which for the same "molecular" reasons that the solder issue, is needed for the electronic component to reach its full capacity. Now, i agree with you that after a long time, electronic components degrade and may loose performance. Like tubes which need replacment when there are worn.
Edited by oliverstoned - January 20 2007 at 05:44
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N Ellingworth
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Posted: January 20 2007 at 05:49 |
Any change in molecular state from when a component is built is technically the component degrading. 
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oliverstoned
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Posted: January 20 2007 at 07:46 |
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OK, ive made research about the issue, and it appear that transistor components would not need run-in, and that's
mostly solders who need it. I've constated it many times, including after a repair on my Jolida tube amp, which needed several days to sound real good, after some component's replacment.
There youre quite right, theorically a transistor only degrade if its subject to excessive heat. And the heat issue is also linked to the circuit's architecture.
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: January 20 2007 at 07:56 |
oliverstoned wrote:
You know nothing about sound like you know nothing about music and your contribution to this forum is 0.
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At least I'm a nice person. 
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oliverstoned
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Posted: January 20 2007 at 07:59 |
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You don't show it much, infortunatly.
Edited by oliverstoned - January 20 2007 at 08:00
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: January 20 2007 at 08:01 |
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^ so - which of my comments in this thread would you consider to be rude?
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MikeEnRegalia
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Posted: January 20 2007 at 08:06 |
oliverstoned wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ sorry, but cables don't burn in. That's a definitive myth.
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Solder need burn'in (a kind of alchemy at a molecular level with the solder, Sean trane which is an expert agreed on that point). In the case of cables featuring filtering boxes (and there are on power, modulation and speakers ones), it's even more obvious as these boxes feature electronic compounds who need a burn-in.
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"Cable" essentially means "wire" ... of course when you have active circuitry then it's more than a cable, it becomes a filter or whatever you might call it. Are the €3000 cables active then?
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Tony R
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Posted: January 25 2007 at 14:25 |
judging from the tumbleweed and dustballs floating around here after the last post, I think that the answer to the €3000 Question must be a resounding:
No
Non
Nein
KO victory to MikeEnR ???
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Neil
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Posted: January 25 2007 at 15:21 |
oliverstoned wrote:
Solder need burn'in (a kind of alchemy at a molecular level with the solder, Sean trane which is an expert agreed on that point).
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I've been in electronics and audio for years and never heard of this. can you point me to anything on the net that explains this? as I'm interested.
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When people get lost in thought it's often because it's unfamiliar territory.
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oliverstoned
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 04:25 |
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I'm searching.
I've find that about components burn-in:
"What is burn-in and how will it effect my kit?
Burn-in (or break-in) is a process that most high-end audio components have to go through. The components requiring the most burn-in are usually capacitors and audio transformers and will take different times to fully settle and sound their best. Most kits sound great straight away but will continue to get even better as time passes. The components requiring the most burn-in are usually Black Gate capacitors. Depending on their grade and specification, they can take a few hundred hours to sound their best but it has to be said that they are well worth the wait and the changes can be quite fascinating to hear."
(http://www.audionotekits.com/faq.htm)
Edited by oliverstoned - January 26 2007 at 04:29
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oliverstoned
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 04:28 |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
oliverstoned wrote:
MikeEnRegalia wrote:
^ sorry, but cables don't burn in. That's a definitive myth.
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Solder need burn'in (a kind of alchemy at a molecular level with the solder, Sean trane which is an expert agreed on that point). In the case of cables featuring filtering boxes (and there are on power, modulation and speakers ones), it's even more obvious as these boxes feature electronic compounds who need a burn-in.
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"Cable" essentially means "wire" ... of course when you have active circuitry then it's more than a cable, it becomes a filter or whatever you might call it.Are the €3000 cables active then? |
Active filters, yes. 3000€ is the extreme high end.
There are killer "passive" cables since 450€.
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Sean Trane
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Posted: January 26 2007 at 08:38 |
Not going to read the full thread here, but to Olovier's demand, I will explain a few things of soldering/welding (which is not my field, but I studied safety around the welder).
On an industrial scale, with extreme temperature changes (over 100°C changes), Welding surface need to be prepared for a proper execution especially when soldering different metals/steels. This comes from an entirely a highly pure surface prepartion to preheating before the welding, than goes phase of cooking the weld or solidifying it, before checking if the welding was correctly dobe without cracks or bubbles.
On a home stereo , where the only real temperature change is the ambient air (from 15 to 35°C) makes a difference with of course the general heat generated from the electronic itself, but generally it is kept relatively cool by evacuating the heat. In general our electronics (non-military) can work from 6(°C to max 35°C except when stoves are concerned and even then the electronics are placedaway from the heating resistances. Have you ever found out your stereo has problems operating properly when the 40°C are reached... There you go.
So in general, the heat inside the stereo is kept around 30°C, except in the case of tube amps (but those stick out not only for beetter cooling but to not propagate heat to other components. One other source of heat comes from bad contacts between elements (this can be plugs and jacks, but a foor welding too). So I imagine that most manufacturers have adapted their welding techniques (I have sen some techniques like a solder bath with a fountain jet caressing the botton of the PC boards (where no compnents are) with a strenght justenough so that the soldermakes the right amount of "bulbing" effect on the compnent side) in order not to hurt the electronics components by overheatinbg them, yet making proper contacts.
Does it imply a running in of the solder on the PC boards? I doubt it very much, because it is likely to damage the components, and running in the compnents is most likely part of their quality system and done still at the end of the production line.
RE: weldings are a very tricky thing, and the alloys used ever important. Certainly Aiwa does not use the same alloys as Harmon Kardon or NAD. Or the non-brands speakers made by cheap manufacturers and getting a label once it is about to be assembled into a cheap system are also not getting the best welding materials. which is unlikely with brands like B&W or JM lab.
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let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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