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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2016 at 01:43
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by aglasshouse aglasshouse wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

As far as I am concerned the people who make a big stink about cultural appropriation in regards to rather benign things are just a vocal minority. It is very easy to just paint all the people who are concerned with such topics with the same brush, but that is just doing the conservatives who actually do oppose them a favor imo. The whole anti-SJW/anti-feminist/anti-PC thing is very strange to me.


It's equally wrong to paint all those who question these ideas with the same brush. I don't think I know anyone, male or female who is not a feminist, or who is opposed to gay marriage, but equally none of them are blind followers of political correctness. That's because many are of the opinion that there isn't a good intention behind it.

I am not sure what blindly following political correctness would be. It's not like it's a religion.
Obviously you haven't seen the movement.

I see lots of leftist stuff on the internet, but I don't purposely look for reasons to dismiss them all, no.

I will give you an example.  At the Australian Open this year, some presenter asked a WTA (woman player, that is) player why she didn't cry after a victory.  There was a lot of hand-wringing after the incident blasting the egregious sexism of the presenter (under the implied assumption that it was Jim Courier).  I asked a simple question that wasn't it usually Rennae Stubbs who interviewed the WTA players post match at the Aussie Open.  And some guy gave an unsolicited rant that it didn't matter what the gender of the person was and that women can also perpetrate sexism.  I didn't of course say it couldn't be sexist if it was Stubbs who asked it.  I was just trying to understand the full facts of the question.  I believe that is a necessary activity before one accuses somebody of being sexist or racist or any other such abominable quality.  Apparently the SJW Inc does not deem that necessary.  I also know of this lady who is an academic in the USA and frequents the blog of a well known film critic in India.  I agree with many of her views.  The problem is even if somebody questions the furore over blacks not getting awards in the Oscars, she proceeds to slam the character of said person, calling them things like carrion.  I don't understand how being an SJW gives you the licence to abuse somebody while you lambast them for saying something slightly less than politically correct.  It is wrong if somebody openly insults another person in any way, but the holding of views that do not subscribe to the left liberal mainstream is not a fault and should be welcomed, discussed and debated.  I am sorry but I do believe the SJWs will only give liberalism a bad name.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2016 at 02:38
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

  I am sorry but I do believe the SJWs will only give liberalism a bad name.
Ermm Steven John Wilson has  a lot to answer for...



LOL
What?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2016 at 05:22
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:

  I am sorry but I do believe the SJWs will only give liberalism a bad name.
Ermm Steven John Wilson has  a lot to answer for...



LOL

Whoops! LOL
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2016 at 10:37
Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by aglasshouse aglasshouse wrote:

Are you implying that people who disagree with those with a PC mindset are just looking for any reason to dismiss their claims just because?

I am implying that lots of anti-PC stuff points out some of the worst examples and uses it to dismiss the entire thing. It is very easy to find places where you could discuss feminist issues or whatever in a constructive manner. As far as those who disagree entirely with PC ideas I am not sure what to say. If you don't like the idea of treating people with respect and trying to understand differing views that is your prerogative.


Are people using it to denounce the entire movement or are they using it to weed out the extremist faction of it? I think there's a fair bit of both going on with the latter obviously being a constructive thing. I disagree with your assertion about the implied rarity of the worst examples. The extreme cases aren't drops in the bucket. The atmosphere of academia has radically changed in the last 5 years. Outrage is needed for many severe cultural problems that permeate American universities, but unfortunately this lose movement is in many cases either redirecting it from the appropriate places or actually exacerbating existing ones.
"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2016 at 14:39

PC, in theory, is a great thing.


But, in practice, it tends to be a set of rules for people and businesses to achieve approval from today's culture, when they are simply whitewashed tombs. I encounter this quite often. As long as they treat those who fall within the category of "disenfranchised minority" (most often because a particular "believable" narrative places them there and not because statistics do, though they often do) according to the established rules, they are unassailable, when others who are disenfranchised who might not be part of a group that is systematically oppressed can be treated with the utmost contempt, and the outcry will be comparably quiet.


Prime example: Run for Cover, a popular independent record label, dropped shoegaze band Whirr last year. Why? They made hateful comments on Twitter towards a band made up of transgenders called G.L.O.S.S. Fair enough. The most vitriolic things they said were about the quality of G.L.O.S.S.'s music, but that's beside the point. They were dropped and Run for Cover donated a large sum of money to transgender organizations. The problem is, Whirr's derogatory comments had been going on a long time, but only recently had they pertained to transgenders. Many of their comments had actually pertained to suicide victims and those who have attempted suicide and they were much more hateful towards them than they were to G.L.O.S.S. Yet Run for Cover let them continue for years. Only when there was internet uproar, or predicted internet uproar, did they take action and they only attempted to make amends for the acts that directly caused the uproar and not Whirr's acts as a whole. Run for Cover may actually care about treating people with respect (I don't really know), but it's apparent that their idea of treating people with respect only applies to those who, if discriminated against by them or their clientele, would get them into trouble with their customers. In essence, the label was simply being true to their name.


But it's not just a corporatization of political correctness. I have many friends who essentially follow suit. Political correctness for them are rules that they have to follow to be accepted by their culture, but they don't seem to feel any responsibility to treat people who are not classified as an "oppressed minority" by that narrative, with respect. This has led me to wonder how much of PC today is actually in step with the overarching moral concept that is supposed to define it. 


I don't claim this is the case for my generation as a whole. But I spend a lot of time around musicians, particularly in the indie rock scene here. These people are my friends, and they have their virtues, but I notice their hypocrisy, their overall rhetoric of hatred, time and time again. I legitimately fear that I will be ousted from my peer group if I believe differently from them. At the very least, they present their friendship on social media as a conditional privilege that can be lost by coming to certain conclusions. There is no room to be misguided or skeptical in their book, so it seems. 



Edited by Polymorphia - April 24 2016 at 14:40
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2016 at 20:31
Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

PC, in theory, is a great thing.


But, in practice, it tends to be a set of rules for people and businesses to achieve approval from today's culture, when they are simply whitewashed tombs. I encounter this quite often. As long as they treat those who fall within the category of "disenfranchised minority" (most often because a particular "believable" narrative places them there and not because statistics do, though they often do) according to the established rules, they are unassailable, when others who are disenfranchised who might not be part of a group that is systematically oppressed can be treated with the utmost contempt, and the outcry will be comparably quiet.


Prime example: Run for Cover, a popular independent record label, dropped shoegaze band Whirr last year. Why? They made hateful comments on Twitter towards a band made up of transgenders called G.L.O.S.S. Fair enough. The most vitriolic things they said were about the quality of G.L.O.S.S.'s music, but that's beside the point. They were dropped and Run for Cover donated a large sum of money to transgender organizations. The problem is, Whirr's derogatory comments had been going on a long time, but only recently had they pertained to transgenders. Many of their comments had actually pertained to suicide victims and those who have attempted suicide and they were much more hateful towards them than they were to G.L.O.S.S. Yet Run for Cover let them continue for years. Only when there was internet uproar, or predicted internet uproar, did they take action and they only attempted to make amends for the acts that directly caused the uproar and not Whirr's acts as a whole. Run for Cover may actually care about treating people with respect (I don't really know), but it's apparent that their idea of treating people with respect only applies to those who, if discriminated against by them or their clientele, would get them into trouble with their customers. In essence, the label was simply being true to their name.


But it's not just a corporatization of political correctness. I have many friends who essentially follow suit. Political correctness for them are rules that they have to follow to be accepted by their culture, but they don't seem to feel any responsibility to treat people who are not classified as an "oppressed minority" by that narrative, with respect. This has led me to wonder how much of PC today is actually in step with the overarching moral concept that is supposed to define it. 


I don't claim this is the case for my generation as a whole. But I spend a lot of time around musicians, particularly in the indie rock scene here. These people are my friends, and they have their virtues, but I notice their hypocrisy, their overall rhetoric of hatred, time and time again. I legitimately fear that I will be ousted from my peer group if I believe differently from them. At the very least, they present their friendship on social media as a conditional privilege that can be lost by coming to certain conclusions. There is no room to be misguided or skeptical in their book, so it seems. 

Hmm, I was just yesterday listening to a Whirr album.  Do I need to get rid of it?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 24 2016 at 22:04
Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:

Hmm, I was just yesterday listening to a Whirr album.  Do I need to get rid of it?
I don't really like their music, so it's no dilemma for me. And I don't typically throw away my albums when the artist does a bad thing. That sh*t cost money yo. But they've made some pretty vitriolic/hateful comments pretty consistently over the years. Take that info how you will.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: April 25 2016 at 03:54
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Originally posted by A Person A Person wrote:

As far as I am concerned the people who make a big stink about cultural appropriation in regards to rather benign things are just a vocal minority. It is very easy to just paint all the people who are concerned with such topics with the same brush, but that is just doing the conservatives who actually do oppose them a favor imo. The whole anti-SJW/anti-feminist/anti-PC thing is very strange to me.


It's equally wrong to paint all those who question these ideas with the same brush. I don't think I know anyone, male or female who is not a feminist, or who is opposed to gay marriage, but equally none of them are blind followers of political correctness. That's because many are of the opinion that there isn't a good intention behind it.

I am not sure what blindly following political correctness would be. It's not like it's a religion.


It's self explanatory.

To blindly sign up to a concept means to never question any facet of it. For example one can be the worlds greatest feminist but simultaneously think that a city authority telling it's staff to not bring brown lunch bags to to work in case it offends black employees is nonsense.


Indeed, you'd swear there is PC police squad out to detect and track down any non-pro gay/feminist/sionnist/etc comments and denounce the author as a fascist...

Just like I believe some choose to be eternally-shocked by anything that doesn't fit their thinking... or professional indignant people ... and use (read abuse) of those pressure groups via fb or other forms of vile social networks


Originally posted by Polymorphia Polymorphia wrote:

PC, in theory, is a great thing.


But, in practice, it tends to be a set of rules for people and businesses to achieve approval from today's culture, when they are simply whitewashed tombs. I encounter this quite often. As long as they treat those who fall within the category of "disenfranchised minority" (most often because a particular "believable" narrative places them there and not because statistics do, though they often do) according to the established rules, they are unassailable, when others who are disenfranchised who might not be part of a group that is systematically oppressed can be treated with the utmost contempt, and the outcry will be comparably quiet.



To me (and to an increasing amount of society), politically correct has gradually and actually become politically incorrect, since it's become almost impossible to address sensitive issues that need discussing...


for example, a certain left (but many rightist activisms  abuse it also) is blocking many migrant issues debates on the sole grounds of stygmatisation dangers) to simply not have the debate... Western societies are at a stage where they cannot spare themselves of certain issues that are slowly eroding certain neutrality values on the grounds that others can be shocked about something according to their gospel.

Of course part of this example centers around the freedom and equality  of women, often refused by religious conservatives (not just muslim, BTW). So they twist the PC ideals to achieve their political incorrect goals.



Edited by Sean Trane - April 25 2016 at 04:09
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