Cultural appropriation - your thoughts
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Topic: Cultural appropriation - your thoughts
Posted By: Blacksword
Subject: Cultural appropriation - your thoughts
Date Posted: April 09 2016 at 05:17
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Trigger alert! Is CA a valid concept, or just a complete bag of sh*t? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_appropriation" rel="nofollow - CA - Wiki Is it racist for a white person (or a black person for that matter) to cook a curry or to prepare Mexican food, for example? Have we all misunderstood diversity and multiculturalism, and in fact should really be pushing everyone into their ethnic silo's, never acknoweldging each others cultures? Who is behind this agenda and why? ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Replies:
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 09 2016 at 05:51
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I'll take complete bag of sh*t for $1000 Alex and who is behind the notion... oh .. probably some egghead sitting in a darkened university closet trying to justify the research grant he received... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: April 09 2016 at 06:26
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I'm with Micky on this. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
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Posted By: JD
Date Posted: April 09 2016 at 06:49
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^My thoughts exactly when I read the subject and before I opened the post. It's concepts like this that create not dismantle racism. It's called DIVERSITY, and at the very least helps stir the mixing pot. Of course when these cultural elements are use for negative purposes, then we have a problem. ------------- Thank you for supporting independently produced music |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 09 2016 at 06:58
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that is why it is complete bullsh*t .... it is like creating the notion that the sky is blue... that has been going on for millenia... find me a culturally homogeneous society today... you'd have to go back to before the wheel was invented to find where one culture has not borrowed concepts. Food, fashion, music... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 09 2016 at 07:29
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Agree with everything said so far. A ridiculous concept. I can't understand why anyone would seek to pursue it. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: April 09 2016 at 07:47
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I think diversity and multiculturalism are different things, I support the first but oppose the second in the form that it has been imposed on modern I think cultural appropriation to a small degree is required for societies to function in harmony, but not to the extent described here. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: April 09 2016 at 07:49
other than for benign purposes... like trying to justify a research grant.. the usual suspects... bigotry, hate, racism and using that notion as a vehicle for trying to rationalize it. Like cultural homogeny is something that really has existed since Japan opened it's borders ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Blacksword wrote:Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: April 09 2016 at 22:56
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So embracing other cultures and taking enjoyment in what they have to offer is now a bad thing to some? Oi
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 10 2016 at 01:26
Liberalism like conservatism has a lunatic fringe and this is the loony liberal wing at work. They have much in common with their right wing counterparts in that they both seek to divide and control people and their overall desire is for an authoritarian system of government imposing their beliefs on others through draconian legislation, centering around the control of language and thought. Clever, but dark stuff.. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Ozark Soundscape
Date Posted: April 10 2016 at 01:58
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A non-black person dressing up in blackface as a sterotypical black dude is racist. Wearing cornrows or dreadlocks is not. |
Posted By: Pastmaster
Date Posted: April 10 2016 at 02:44
Completely agree.
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Posted By: Replayer
Date Posted: April 10 2016 at 04:01
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I think the interaction between cultures has lead to numerous cultural elements being enjoyed by many millions more than they would have been otherwise: the Hindu numeral system, blues-derived rock, pizza, Swedish meatballs, soccer, bagpipes, chess, Go, etc. With that being said, I think there are legitimate cases where a group can protest how another cultural group trivializes some of its cultural elements, particularly when it's done in a derogatory, overtly commercial or patronizing manner. I can see how some Native Americans take offense at sports franchises that use Native American imagery in what they construe as a stereotypical manner (ex. Washington Redskins, Cleveland Indians, Atlanta Braves). Also, there have been a few cases where college fraternity members dressed up as stereotypical Mexicans using sombreros, ponchos, mustaches, etc. As with many other subjective situations that can lead to conflict, a little bit of common sense goes a long way. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 10 2016 at 05:41
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Hmmm. Where do you draw the line? Jazz, ragtime, gospel and blues, together with R&B and Soul, and thus hip-hop and rap, are the result of cultural appropriation. None of them bear much resemblance to the African music that they are derived from as they are the appropriation of Western music culture (European folk traditions, hymns & church music, Latin rhythms) into African song and dance traditions. [I would posit that this was possible because the fundamentals of harmony and meter within music are based upon inherent physiological human traits rather than learnt or passed-on cultural traditions, but that's a digression]. Here we don't use the seemingly derogatory word "appropriation" but the more acceptable "adaptation" or "fusion" because of the circumstances that lead to this appropriation of Western music by African-Americans. This is White man's guilt: the embarrassment and shame that they bear for the slavery, colonisation, displacement and ghettoisation of other races by their forebears, even though those white-oppressors were the social elite who similarly exploited the less privileged of their own race and culture through the class-system, enforced transportation, work-houses and indentured servitude. My (white) ancestors were neither slaves nor slavers, (nor where they colonists or imperialists), but they were no more free as a consequence of that: general suffrage (as an indication of emancipation) in the UK is less than 100 years old, prior to 1918 no one in my family-tree was eligible to vote. Their political, social and religious freedoms were limited and their cultural identity marginalised and suppressed through many centuries of imposed social and religious conformance, though this wasn't as visible as the more politically motivated suppression of Irish, Welsh and Scottish identity. Much of what is now regarded as English cultural heritage and tradition is a romantic Edwardian/Victorian re-imagining. Therefore I cannot be 'embarrassed' by cultural appropriation because of the sins of someone else's father but equally I cannot appropriate for myself the offence felt by others of a different culture. If a Native American is offended by cultural appropriation of a traditional head-dress then so be it, if a middle-class white student is offended by it then I have to ask what offends them so? [Is three non-English actors' (Depp, Dias and McGregor) parody the stereotypical English accent in a crap film (Mortdecai) or Rickman and Irons using stereotyped German accents in the Die Hard franchise as offensive as Jolson donning blackface in the Jazz Singer? Is Olivier applying black grease-paint to play Othello not offensive because it's a characterisation not a caricature? Do we then say that no black actors can play Hamlet because they are not white, or do we restrict that role just to Danish actors?]
------------- What? |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: April 10 2016 at 09:25
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I can conceive of situations in which cultural appropriation would be a bad thing, but this has little to do with real life examples of where this term is applied en masse. Cultural appropriate as its usually used is a good thing which allows rather different people to find some common ground and gain appreciation for their differing cultural backgrounds. That being said I think many of the people who cry cultural appropriation are just ill informed as the crotchety old guys who complain about people crying cultural appropriation. I think http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/9036" rel="nofollow - PZ Myers wrong a pretty good piece summing up what I mean though I don't quite like his tone nor do I agree with every point. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 10 2016 at 10:09
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I'm thinking the level of hyper-political-correctness has reached such a fever pitch that I may be accosted on the street for wearing dungarees, because, as everyone knows, the word dungaree is expropriated from the Indian duṅgrī (ie., cotton cloth), and I am contributing to the ongoing social evils resulting from several hundred years of imperial white colonization and repression of Third World countries. I will then be scolded in no uncertain terms that using nomenclature such as "Third World' only perpetuates the impression that said impoverished and backward nations are lesser entities in the eyes of the white privileged empire-makers who looted these lands to enrich themselves on the backs of slave labor. And then I will reply, "I am wearing f*cking blue jeans, *sshole!"
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: zappaholic
Date Posted: April 10 2016 at 13:40
To all the academicians who buy into this: ------------- "Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard." -- H.L. Mencken |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 11 2016 at 05:05
In quoting Kou, the article expressed the point I tried to make but far more eloquently than I: "Cultural appropriation is when members of a dominant culture adopt parts of another culture from people that they’ve also systematically oppressed." The bulk of Carrier's article, and those of Kou and Coyne, struck me as over-reacting to make their respective points, but that is the norm in the blogosphere where 'mutual respect' is a path seldom trod. Appropriation in itself is not necessarily a bad thing, (that would be misappropriation), but if we accept Kou's definition of Cultural Appropriation without taking into account her further corollaries and provisos then it can only be regarded as a bad thing despite any positive outcomes that result from it. This leads to the reflex reaction that people have (on both sides) when this topic is discussed at face-value without considering the context in which it is used. [I think cuisine is a poor example to pick because few are expert on what constitutes authenticity and appropriation here, Kou attempts to clarify 'authenticity' but doesn't quite succeed IMO, but that's by-the-by.]
------------- What? |
Posted By: AZF
Date Posted: April 11 2016 at 09:08
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Another trap liked by people who are now facing every quirk and aspect of their lives suddenly being turned against. It's Centralization vs De-Centralization now. But there will be more lunatic stuff like this in due course! |
Posted By: Michael678
Date Posted: April 15 2016 at 21:50
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I'm with the majority on this one. TAKE DOWN THE SJW'S!!!!! ------------- Progrockdude |
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: April 15 2016 at 22:11
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How about the damn Normans appropriating Saxon culture, and in Ireland becoming more Irish than the Irish. ------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology... |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 16 2016 at 11:34
| Related to this topic, Jungle Book is back in town and the old chestnut re I Wanna Be Like You rears its head again. Wonder why parodying the British Raj through a herd of overbloated and ponderous elephants wasn't offensive though. We Indians loved it and heartily laughed along, but the notion that the white man is supposed to laugh along if he's parodied but vice versa is forbidden is confusing to put it mildly. Surely all kinds of offence aren't RACIAL offence? And if the right to offend is to be denied, what remains of art, indeed of any kind of expression? Seriously what the f*** is wrong with liberals? |
Posted By: hefdaddy42
Date Posted: April 16 2016 at 11:36
| Yes it's pretty damn racist. We call it mexican food for a reason. Go back home scrub. |
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: April 16 2016 at 12:16
Our reptilian overlords don't want different cultures to mix because they're easier to control that way. This is also why they're constantly inventing new philosophies, religions, sexual perversions, hobbies, cousines etc. -- to further divide us.  |
Posted By: HackettFan
Date Posted: April 20 2016 at 13:59
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I work on an endangered Native American language. It's not simply liberals, but just an average tribal person that gets offended by cultural appropriation. Language in particular is considered cultural property. In order to start or continue research, one has to be observant of that and deferential toward it. However, like others, I don't like it. There are some that would rather see their own language die out than have a White linguist work to document it. Ironically, the languages are dying because they can't compete with English. And English is so successful because everyone uses it. Everyone uses it because we expect everyone to appropriate it. Even more ironically, the language I work on was once a lingua franca for trading of horses throughout the American plains, so it is only a recent modern development that has made it into a thing of cultural property. ------------- A curse upon the heads of those who seek their fortunes in a lie. The truth is always waiting when there's nothing left to try. - Colin Henson, Jade Warrior (Now) |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: April 21 2016 at 21:44
Yeah we all know of the new "liberal" fascism taking hold in campuses all across the US (dont know about other parts of the world). The social media presence is very in your face as well. Very sad the mentality some, emphasis on some, liberals take on this stuff. Read a great article about it on college campuses, and the author (a professor I believe) hit it on the head: In his day as a youth...it was the old conservatives that tried to stifle, divide, homoginize and youth/liberals fought against. Now they are the very ones doing the work for the old conservatives  But yeah it's whack. I try my best to avoid it, which is a double win since it gives me a reason to be on/delve into social media less. That said I NEVER swing to the other side. I've noticed the knee jerk reaction to all this is rational, sane, non hateful people I know (ranging from liberal to conservative) react in an equally bad way. SJW!!!!!!  And use language and rhetoric that is borderline hateful and hate to say, often gets into weirdly racist seeming. And I know they're not, but like I said above, best to just ignore/laugh off like I do. Can't let the dividers get to us
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 22 2016 at 01:07
Good thoughts , Dean. |
Posted By: HemispheresOfXanadu
Date Posted: April 22 2016 at 01:46
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I'd have to give up tea, maple syrup, and most of the English language if I wanted to live without appropriation. ------------- https://twitter.com/ProgFollower" rel="nofollow - @ProgFollower on Twitter. Tweet me muzak. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 22 2016 at 01:54
I'm wondering if those "liberal fascists" actually do characterise themselves as liberals. If they do, then they need to look up the dictionary definition of what liberalism actually is, but I suspect many may regard themselves as being above and beyond the liberal/conservative paradigm. A new generation of socially aware pragmatists who know (or think they know) that positive change must be forced and coerced. It can't be merely encouraged. Of course they will have also defined for themselves what 'positive change' means and what it looks like...  I always considered myself a liberal, but these days I'm increasingly being made to feel like a fascist for thinking that others have a right to hold and express opinions that differ from my own, and what I should be doing is simply falling into line with whatever perspective has been approved and rubber stamped by the liberalista that week. In reality most people - in my experience - hold a variety of liberal and conservative views on different issues. You rarely meet someone who is so to the left they want to see everyone on the same salary queing up at soup kitchens everyday, or so to the right that they think anyone without a degree in business studies should be sent to death camps, but there eseems to be generation of 'my way or the highway' authoritarians being created in colleges to steer the world through the 21st century and into dictatorial ruin. Either that, or I'm talking nonsense and worrying unduly. The jury's out for now.. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 22 2016 at 02:47
Indeed-- is not human progress based on, among other things, appropriation? ------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 22 2016 at 07:08
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I guess Caudasian-created state and city names like Dakota, Idaho, Toronto or Mississauga are now politically incorrect, because they've been "culturally appropriated" |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: April 22 2016 at 20:16
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As far as I am concerned the people who make a big stink about cultural appropriation in regards to rather benign things are just a vocal minority. It is very easy to just paint all the people who are concerned with such topics with the same brush, but that is just doing the conservatives who actually do oppose them a favor imo. The whole anti-SJW/anti-feminist/anti-PC thing is very strange to me. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 23 2016 at 06:47
It's equally wrong to paint all those who question these ideas with the same brush. I don't think I know anyone, male or female who is not a feminist, or who is opposed to gay marriage, but equally none of them are blind followers of political correctness. That's because many are of the opinion that there isn't a good intention behind it. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: April 23 2016 at 20:34
I am not sure what blindly following political correctness would be. It's not like it's a religion. |
Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: April 23 2016 at 23:22
Obviously you haven't seen the movement. ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: April 23 2016 at 23:32
I see lots of leftist stuff on the internet, but I don't purposely look for reasons to dismiss them all, no. |
Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: April 23 2016 at 23:36
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Are you implying that people who disagree with those with a PC mindset are just looking for any reason to dismiss their claims just because? ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: April 23 2016 at 23:41
I am implying that lots of anti-PC stuff points out some of the worst examples and uses it to dismiss the entire thing. It is very easy to find places where you could discuss feminist issues or whatever in a constructive manner. As far as those who disagree entirely with PC ideas I am not sure what to say. If you don't like the idea of treating people with respect and trying to understand differing views that is your prerogative. |
Posted By: aglasshouse
Date Posted: April 23 2016 at 23:51
Evidence please. ------------- http://fryingpanmedia.com |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 24 2016 at 01:39
It's self explanatory. To blindly sign up to a concept means to never question any facet of it. For example one can be the worlds greatest feminist but simultaneously think that a city authority telling it's staff to not bring brown lunch bags to to work in case it offends black employees is nonsense. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 24 2016 at 01:43
I will give you an example. At the Australian Open this year, some presenter asked a WTA (woman player, that is) player why she didn't cry after a victory. There was a lot of hand-wringing after the incident blasting the egregious sexism of the presenter (under the implied assumption that it was Jim Courier). I asked a simple question that wasn't it usually Rennae Stubbs who interviewed the WTA players post match at the Aussie Open. And some guy gave an unsolicited rant that it didn't matter what the gender of the person was and that women can also perpetrate sexism. I didn't of course say it couldn't be sexist if it was Stubbs who asked it. I was just trying to understand the full facts of the question. I believe that is a necessary activity before one accuses somebody of being sexist or racist or any other such abominable quality. Apparently the SJW Inc does not deem that necessary. I also know of this lady who is an academic in the USA and frequents the blog of a well known film critic in India. I agree with many of her views. The problem is even if somebody questions the furore over blacks not getting awards in the Oscars, she proceeds to slam the character of said person, calling them things like carrion. I don't understand how being an SJW gives you the licence to abuse somebody while you lambast them for saying something slightly less than politically correct. It is wrong if somebody openly insults another person in any way, but the holding of views that do not subscribe to the left liberal mainstream is not a fault and should be welcomed, discussed and debated. I am sorry but I do believe the SJWs will only give liberalism a bad name.
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 24 2016 at 02:38
 Steven John Wilson has a lot to answer for...------------- What? |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: April 24 2016 at 05:22
Whoops!
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: April 24 2016 at 10:37
Are people using it to denounce the entire movement or are they using it to weed out the extremist faction of it? I think there's a fair bit of both going on with the latter obviously being a constructive thing. I disagree with your assertion about the implied rarity of the worst examples. The extreme cases aren't drops in the bucket. The atmosphere of academia has radically changed in the last 5 years. Outrage is needed for many severe cultural problems that permeate American universities, but unfortunately this lose movement is in many cases either redirecting it from the appropriate places or actually exacerbating existing ones. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: April 24 2016 at 14:39
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PC, in theory, is a great thing. But, in practice, it tends to be a set of rules for people and businesses to achieve approval from today's culture, when they are simply whitewashed tombs. I encounter this quite often. As long as they treat those who fall within the category of "disenfranchised minority" (most often because a particular "believable" narrative places them there and not because statistics do, though they often do) according to the established rules, they are unassailable, when others who are disenfranchised who might not be part of a group that is systematically oppressed can be treated with the utmost contempt, and the outcry will be comparably quiet. Prime example: Run for Cover, a popular independent record label, dropped shoegaze band Whirr last year. Why? They made hateful comments on Twitter towards a band made up of transgenders called G.L.O.S.S. Fair enough. The most vitriolic things they said were about the quality of G.L.O.S.S.'s music, but that's beside the point. They were dropped and Run for Cover donated a large sum of money to transgender organizations. The problem is, Whirr's derogatory comments had been going on a long time, but only recently had they pertained to transgenders. Many of their comments had actually pertained to suicide victims and those who have attempted suicide and they were much more hateful towards them than they were to G.L.O.S.S. Yet Run for Cover let them continue for years. Only when there was internet uproar, or predicted internet uproar, did they take action and they only attempted to make amends for the acts that directly caused the uproar and not Whirr's acts as a whole. Run for Cover may actually care about treating people with respect (I don't really know), but it's apparent that their idea of treating people with respect only applies to those who, if discriminated against by them or their clientele, would get them into trouble with their customers. In essence, the label was simply being true to their name. But it's not just a corporatization of political correctness. I have many friends who essentially follow suit. Political correctness for them are rules that they have to follow to be accepted by their culture, but they don't seem to feel any responsibility to treat people who are not classified as an "oppressed minority" by that narrative, with respect. This has led me to wonder how much of PC today is actually in step with the overarching moral concept that is supposed to define it. I don't claim this is the case for my generation as a whole. But I spend a lot of time around musicians, particularly in the indie rock scene here. These people are my friends, and they have their virtues, but I notice their hypocrisy, their overall rhetoric of hatred, time and time again. I legitimately fear that I will be ousted from my peer group if I believe differently from them. At the very least, they present their friendship on social media as a conditional privilege that can be lost by coming to certain conclusions. There is no room to be misguided or skeptical in their book, so it seems. ------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music 
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Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: April 24 2016 at 20:31
------------- -- Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth. |
Posted By: Polymorphia
Date Posted: April 24 2016 at 22:04
------------- https://dreamwindow.bandcamp.com/releases" rel="nofollow - My Music
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Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: April 25 2016 at 03:54
Indeed, you'd swear there is PC police squad out to detect and track down any non-pro gay/feminist/sionnist/etc comments and denounce the author as a fascist... Just like I believe some choose to be eternally-shocked by anything that doesn't fit their thinking... or professional indignant people ... and use (read abuse) of those pressure groups via fb or other forms of vile social networks
To me (and to an increasing amount of society), politically correct has gradually and actually become politically incorrect, since it's become almost impossible to address sensitive issues that need discussing... for
example, a certain left (but many rightist activisms abuse it also) is
blocking many migrant issues debates on the sole grounds of
stygmatisation dangers) to simply not have the debate... Western
societies are at a stage where they cannot spare themselves of certain
issues that are slowly eroding certain neutrality values on the grounds
that others can be shocked about something according to their gospel. |