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oliverstoned View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Portaphile?
    Posted: February 17 2011 at 13:42


Any portaphile here?


Easier for me to enumerate my portable set up than my home setup...

Here it is:

Source: Imod (80 G Ipod modified by Red wine audio)+ ALO audio cable ("Jena labs" cable cryogenized with top notch plugs)

Portable amp: Qables Iqube (but i'd like to change for the much smaller RSA Mustang P51)

Headphones: Senn HD25 + Cardas cable




All the ingredients in picture for a killer 1500 dollars portable system (to use with wav files ripped from original new condition CDs) :














Edited by oliverstoned - February 17 2011 at 13:50
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 17 2011 at 16:31
With your money and my sense I could rule the world. Wink
 
The Wolfson DAC in the iPod is a pretty good codec that wouldn't disgrace a mid-range CD player and the headphone amp isn't up to the same standard by a long way, but $250 to have someone bypass that amp is a little expensive.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 01:37
iPad + Nokia BH-505 (Bluetooth headset).Tongue


Sounds surprisingly good - but you have to use high bitrate or even lossless files because bluetooth will apply another round of lossy compression.


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - February 18 2011 at 01:39
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 01:49
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

With your money and my sense I could rule the world. Wink
 

The Wolfson DAC in the iPod is a pretty good codec that wouldn't disgrace a mid-range CD player and the headphone amp isn't up to the same standard by a long way, but $250 to have someone bypass that amp is a little expensive.


I agree with the first statement: "The Wolfson DAC in the iPod is a pretty good codec that wouldn't disgrace a mid-range CD player"

The aim of a (good) portabLE amp is to provide enough power to drive correctly efficient cans (no way to drive properly a HD600 or equivalent with a portable amp, you need a real home amp for such cans)
but it really enhanced most good efficient cans. I talk about GOOD portable amps, indeed better nothing than a average amp.

I don't understand the last part of your sentence, sorry for my bad english:"but $250 to have someone bypass that amp is a little expensive."


..and i'm not rich, just broken by Hifi!


Edited by oliverstoned - February 18 2011 at 02:19
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 03:36
I think that especially for portable use, the goal is to build headphones that are smaller, but without sacrificing sound quality. I think the proper way to go is in ear headphones (like the ones I showed above). Move the speaker as close to the eardrum as possible - then it can be an order of magnitude less loud (thus consuming much less power), and since it's lodged in the ear canal it naturally blocks surrounding noise. 

Surely there are more expensive choices of in-ear headphones than the one I listed above - but because of the advantages I listed above, even in the 50 EUR price range there are some which sound amazing. The biggest disadvantage is that they tend to slip out of the ear, so you end up re-adjusting their fit frequently. And that's the big advantage of my bluetooth headset: It's designed to prevent exactly that. I've already tried cycling and jogging with it, and it works just fine.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 04:58
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:


I don't understand the last part of your sentence, sorry for my bad english:"but $250 to have someone bypass that amp is a little expensive."


..and i'm not rich, just broken by Hifi!
 
The Wolfson codec has 2 pairs of outputs LOUT1 & ROUT1 and LOUT2 & ROUT2 - all of these are designed to be either Line Out or Headphone Out ... the L/ROUT2 outputs can also be configured to drive a mono speaker in bridge configuration (not used on iPods). All of these outputs have the same specification, however in the iPod the L/ROUT1 connections are used to connect to the headphone socket and will give 0.013% (-78dB) THD at 20mW into 32ohm headphones - the L/ROUT2 ouputs will also produce that same THD value if driving into 32ohms. When driving into 10Kohm loads (ie as Line Out) the THD decreases to 0.006% (-84dB), which is obviously better - but any unmodified iPod can do this from the headphone socket. The THD is not determined by the Codec, but by the load ... change the load and you change the THD.
 
The iMod modification disconnects the headphone socket from L/ROUT1 and connects it to L/ROUT2 - to do this it needs to block the DC part of the signal, and they do it using two $15 "audiophile" capacitors, bypassing the cheap surface mount ones used by Apple on the L/ROUT1 outputs. This I believe is an error, since the Apple software does not program the volume level on these outputs (it could, but does not) - a better mod for the same "cost" would have been to replace the Apple capacitors with the Black Gate Hi-Q ones, which would give the same spec but retain the volume control capability. However, this destroys the Emperor's New Clothes effect since the modified iPod would be exactly the same as an unmodified one.
 
The L/ROUT2 outputs are not inherently "quality" outputs - the specification of the L/ROUT2 driving into 10K is 0.006% - the same outputs driving into 8ohms is 1% THD ... all you are doing is changing the load, not the characteristics of the iPod outputs - even with the Black Gate Hi-Q capacitors those outputs will still drive headphones and they will give the same THD as an unmodified iPod driving the same headhones - Red Wine tell you not to connect headphones to the modified iPod because the volume is now set to maximum and cannot be controlled.
 
For the work they do $250 is not worth the money in my estimation.


Edited by Dean - February 18 2011 at 06:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 05:32

ps: there is a better way of modifying an iPod, and that is to do away with the DC blocking capacitors completely ("capless" in the graph below) - there is a third audio output associated with the L/ROUT1 connections that outputs the Voltage Reference level called MONOOUT - using this as a phantom ground connection for the headphones/line-out removes the DC component completely, which not only improves the THD, it also improves the bass frequency response since it does away with this low-cut filter of the capacitor/load. The disadvantage is that the ground connection of the output is no longer 0V, but since the iPod is floating that is not a problem.

The THD can be improved further still on some newer Wolfson codecs by increasing the supply voltage to the output amplifiers to 5V (SPKRVDD), but I don't think this is possible on the 4g and 5g iPods.


Edited by Dean - February 18 2011 at 05:52
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 06:22
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

I think that especially for portable use, the goal is to build headphones that are smaller, but without sacrificing sound quality. I think the proper way to go is in ear headphones (like the ones I showed above). Move the speaker as close to the eardrum as possible - then it can be an order of magnitude less loud (thus consuming much less power), and since it's lodged in the ear canal it naturally blocks surrounding noise. 

Surely there are more expensive choices of in-ear headphones than the one I listed above - but because of the advantages I listed above, even in the 50 EUR price range there are some which sound amazing. The biggest disadvantage is that they tend to slip out of the ear, so you end up re-adjusting their fit frequently. And that's the big advantage of my bluetooth headset: It's designed to prevent exactly that. I've already tried cycling and jogging with it, and it works just fine.
I agree - the real "gem" in Oliver's set-up is the headphone amp, and that power is needed to drive the cans without producing the excessive distortion the iPod would create into that load at those power levels. The iMod and the OFC cable is cosmetic in my opinion.
 
With more efficient ear buds the reduced drive power improves the distortion considerably (and reduces battery drain). To achieve what Oliver is attempting you really do need to spend a serious amount of money on the external Class-D amp - those cheaper (sub $100) ones aren't much better than the iPod itself - the FiiO E5 for example can only kick out 150mW into 16ohms and cannot drive big headphones.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 06:28
I thought the question referred to enthusiasts of festival porta-loos.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 06:37
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

I think that especially for portable use, the goal is to build headphones that are smaller, but without sacrificing sound quality. I think the proper way to go is in ear headphones (like the ones I showed above). Move the speaker as close to the eardrum as possible - then it can be an order of magnitude less loud (thus consuming much less power), and since it's lodged in the ear canal it naturally blocks surrounding noise. 
Surely there are more expensive choices of in-ear headphones than the one I listed above - but because of the advantages I listed above, even in the 50 EUR price range there are some which sound amazing. The biggest disadvantage is that they tend to slip out of the ear, so you end up re-adjusting their fit frequently. And that's the big advantage of my bluetooth headset: It's designed to prevent exactly that. I've already tried cycling and jogging with it, and it works just fine.


It's a matter of musical taste, there are good HP in all technologies,
but i don't like much In-ear HP because they don't let the ear "breathe"
much, also as you say they tend to drop from the ear and so to be easily damaged and most of all, they often lack low end.
That's why i prefer bigger cans, especially the HD25 which is my reference in portable because it's very neutral and musical.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 06:50
Interesting technical points here Dean. Actually the Imod comes as a whole since there are the internal modifications into the Imod and the cable which as you know contains the "race" component too big to fit into the Imod. Fortunatly the Imod is not more expensive than the classic Ipod, at least when i bought it several years ago.
But the tiny piece of Alo cable itself enhanced a lot compared to a standard cable. Moreover the Imod only works with external amp as the variable output is desactivated. I admit i've never compared to a classic Ipod so it's hard to tell. But the cable itself change the sound so it complicates the comparison.

As for HP cables, the HD 25 often comes with a steel cable which sounds awful. Replace it by the Standard cooper Senn cable and it's much smoother and musical. Replace it by a Cardas or an ALO (each one has its
sound signature, i prefer the rounder Cardas) and it's still another world on all criterias.

Edited by oliverstoned - February 18 2011 at 06:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 07:12
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Interesting technical points here Dean. Actually the Imod comes as a whole since there are the internal modifications into the Imod and the cable which as you know contains the "race" component too big to fit into the Imod. Fortunatly the Imod is not more expensive than the classic Ipod, at least when i bought it several years ago.
But the tiny piece of Alo cable itself enhanced a lot compared to a standard cable. Moreover the Imod only works with external amp as the variable output is desactivated. I admit i've never compared to a classic Ipod so it's hard to tell. But the cable itself change the sound so it complicates the comparison.

As for HP cables, the HD 25 often comes with a steel cable which sounds awful. Replace it by the Standard cooper Senn cable and it's much smoother and musical. Replace it by a Cardas or an ALO (each one has its
sound signature, i prefer the rounder Cardas) and it's still another world on all criterias.
Ah, you've a modded 5g iPod - the Black Gate capacitors are too big to fit inside the 5g case. The cost of the iMod is $250 and the customer supplies the iPod, so it cost $250 more than a standard iPod (ie double):
Quote

4th & 5th* Generation iMod Pricing Info

Pricing is for the Modification Service only. Customer must supply iPod to us.

Price: $250

A standard iPod with the ALO cable would sound the same IMO.


Edited by Dean - February 18 2011 at 07:15
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 07:27
The ALO cable is £195 !!! Shocked - ALO will sell you a modded 80Gb iPod plus cable for $565 - which means the iPod costs $120 (which is about the price they are going for on eBay).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 07:28
I've got the ALO cable pictured in my first post which was provided with the 80g Imod i bought directly.

"A standard iPod with the ALO cable would sound the same IMO."

I've got doubts now with all that you said. But only a listening comparison will tell.




Edited by oliverstoned - February 18 2011 at 07:34
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 07:50
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

I've got the ALO cable pictured in my first post which was provided with the 80g Imod i bought directly.

"A standard iPod with the ALO cable would sound the same IMO."

I've got doubts now with all that you said. But only a listening comparison will tell.


Nothing I have said cannot be backed up by solid engineering Wink. (I have worked with Wolfson on testing their audio codecs and know several of the design and product engineers there).
 
You have said: "But the tiny piece of Alo cable itself enhanced a lot compared to a standard cable" - but you cannot use a standard cable on a Red Wine modified iPod so the comparison cannot be made - I now doubt what you have saidTongue, however an ALO cable can be used on a standard unmodified iPod so the comparison can be made in that set-up. A listening test will confirm or deny what I have said, but not what you have said. (listening tests are subjective and psychological, but valid)
 
 
*I've just noticed that the ALO cable cannot house the Black Gate capacitors either - looking on the ALO website it appears they use different (smaller) caps, which would probably fit inside the 5g case anyway.


Edited by Dean - February 18 2011 at 07:56
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 08:11
Ok you worked for Wolfson. Indeed, this conversion chip is what make the Ipod a decent sounding source.

Actually i know well cables in general, and i've owned several ALO cables and it smokes a standard piece of modulation cable, that's what i meant.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 08:18
^ so my statement is still valid Wink
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 09:55
Ultimately what I want to do probably wouldn't fall under the term "portable", but my nettop has an S/PDIF out, which I would send to a small, good quality DAC (maybe something by Audophile Products, the "FUBAR"), and then to a good amp and good set of speakers - I'm not talking top of the line, my ears aren't good enough to justify it.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 14:02
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Ultimately what I want to do probably wouldn't fall under the term "portable", but my nettop has an S/PDIF out, which I would send to a small, good quality DAC (maybe something by Audophile Products, the "FUBAR"), and then to a good amp and good set of speakers - I'm not talking top of the line, my ears aren't good enough to justify it.
I was going to say Cambridge Audio DacMagic, but that costs more than your Nettop Shocked
 
I've been thinking about whether a portable version of that is doable - it's a definite hole in the market at the moment - iPlods don't have SPDIF outs, but the do have USB - it would mean that the portable DAC would have to be a USB controller (the USB DACs currently on the market are USB peripherals, not controllers), but that's not beyond the realms of possibility.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 14:12
Originally posted by Dean Dean wrote:

Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Ultimately what I want to do probably wouldn't fall under the term "portable", but my nettop has an S/PDIF out, which I would send to a small, good quality DAC (maybe something by Audophile Products, the "FUBAR"), and then to a good amp and good set of speakers - I'm not talking top of the line, my ears aren't good enough to justify it.
I was going to say Cambridge Audio DacMagic, but that costs more than your Nettop Shocked
 

Gah, and you made me look it up - beautiful looking device, that.
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