Portaphile?
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Other music related lounges
Forum Name: Tech Talk
Forum Description: Discuss musical instruments, equipment, hi-fi, speakers, vinyl, gadgets,etc.
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=76011
Printed Date: November 28 2024 at 18:36
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Topic: Portaphile?
Posted By: oliverstoned
Subject: Portaphile?
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 13:42
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Any portaphile here? Easier for me to enumerate my portable set up than my home setup... Here it is: Source: Imod (80 G Ipod modified by Red wine audio)+ ALO audio cable ("Jena labs" cable cryogenized with top notch plugs) Portable amp: Qables Iqube (but i'd like to change for the much smaller RSA Mustang P51) Headphones: Senn HD25 + Cardas cable All the ingredients in picture for a killer 1500 dollars portable system (to use with wav files ripped from original new condition CDs) : 
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Replies:
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 17 2011 at 16:31
With your money and my sense I could rule the world. 
The Wolfson DAC in the iPod is a pretty good codec that wouldn't disgrace a mid-range CD player and the headphone amp isn't up to the same standard by a long way, but $250 to have someone bypass that amp is a little expensive. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 01:37
iPad + Nokia BH-505 (Bluetooth headset).
 Sounds surprisingly good - but you have to use high bitrate or even lossless files because bluetooth will apply another round of lossy compression. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 01:49
I agree with the first statement: "The Wolfson DAC in the iPod is a pretty good codec that wouldn't disgrace a mid-range CD player" The aim of a (good) portabLE amp is to provide enough power to drive correctly efficient cans (no way to drive properly a HD600 or equivalent with a portable amp, you need a real home amp for such cans) but it really enhanced most good efficient cans. I talk about GOOD portable amps, indeed better nothing than a average amp. I don't understand the last part of your sentence, sorry for my bad english:"but $250 to have someone bypass that amp is a little expensive." ..and i'm not rich, just broken by Hifi! |
Dean wrote:Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 03:36
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I think that especially for portable use, the goal is to build headphones that are smaller, but without sacrificing sound quality. I think the proper way to go is in ear headphones (like the ones I showed above). Move the speaker as close to the eardrum as possible - then it can be an order of magnitude less loud (thus consuming much less power), and since it's lodged in the ear canal it naturally blocks surrounding noise. Surely there are more expensive choices of in-ear headphones than the one I listed above - but because of the advantages I listed above, even in the 50 EUR price range there are some which sound amazing. The biggest disadvantage is that they tend to slip out of the ear, so you end up re-adjusting their fit frequently. And that's the big advantage of my bluetooth headset: It's designed to prevent exactly that. I've already tried cycling and jogging with it, and it works just fine. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 04:58
The Wolfson codec has 2 pairs of outputs LOUT1 & ROUT1 and LOUT2 & ROUT2 - all of these are designed to be either Line Out or Headphone Out ... the L/ROUT2 outputs can also be configured to drive a mono speaker in bridge configuration (not used on iPods). All of these outputs have the same specification, however in the iPod the L/ROUT1 connections are used to connect to the headphone socket and will give 0.013% (-78dB) THD at 20mW into 32ohm headphones - the L/ROUT2 ouputs will also produce that same THD value if driving into 32ohms. When driving into 10Kohm loads (ie as Line Out) the THD decreases to 0.006% (-84dB), which is obviously better - but any unmodified iPod can do this from the headphone socket. The THD is not determined by the Codec, but by the load ... change the load and you change the THD.
The iMod modification disconnects the headphone socket from L/ROUT1 and connects it to L/ROUT2 - to do this it needs to block the DC part of the signal, and they do it using two $15 "audiophile" capacitors, bypassing the cheap surface mount ones used by Apple on the L/ROUT1 outputs. This I believe is an error, since the Apple software does not program the volume level on these outputs (it could, but does not) - a better mod for the same "cost" would have been to replace the Apple capacitors with the Black Gate Hi-Q ones, which would give the same spec but retain the volume control capability. However, this destroys the Emperor's New Clothes effect since the modified iPod would be exactly the same as an unmodified one.
The L/ROUT2 outputs are not inherently "quality" outputs - the specification of the L/ROUT2 driving into 10K is 0.006% - the same outputs driving into 8ohms is 1% THD ... all you are doing is changing the load, not the characteristics of the iPod outputs - even with the Black Gate Hi-Q capacitors those outputs will still drive headphones and they will give the same THD as an unmodified iPod driving the same headhones - Red Wine tell you not to connect headphones to the modified iPod because the volume is now set to maximum and cannot be controlled.
For the work they do $250 is not worth the money in my estimation. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 05:32
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ps: there is a better way of modifying an iPod, and that is to do away with the DC blocking capacitors completely ("capless" in the graph below) - there is a third audio output associated with the L/ROUT1 connections that outputs the Voltage Reference level called MONOOUT - using this as a phantom ground connection for the headphones/line-out removes the DC component completely, which not only improves the THD, it also improves the bass frequency response since it does away with this low-cut filter of the capacitor/load. The disadvantage is that the ground connection of the output is no longer 0V, but since the iPod is floating that is not a problem.  The THD can be improved further still on some newer Wolfson codecs by increasing the supply voltage to the output amplifiers to 5V (SPKRVDD), but I don't think this is possible on the 4g and 5g iPods. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 06:22
With more efficient ear buds the reduced drive power improves the distortion considerably (and reduces battery drain). To achieve what Oliver is attempting you really do need to spend a serious amount of money on the external Class-D amp - those cheaper (sub $100) ones aren't much better than the iPod itself - the FiiO E5 for example can only kick out 150mW into 16ohms and cannot drive big headphones. ------------- What? |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 06:28
| I thought the question referred to enthusiasts of festival porta-loos. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 06:37
It's a matter of musical taste, there are good HP in all technologies, but i don't like much In-ear HP because they don't let the ear "breathe" much, also as you say they tend to drop from the ear and so to be easily damaged and most of all, they often lack low end. That's why i prefer bigger cans, especially the HD25 which is my reference in portable because it's very neutral and musical. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 06:50
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Interesting technical points here Dean. Actually the Imod comes as a whole since there are the internal modifications into the Imod and the cable which as you know contains the "race" component too big to fit into the Imod. Fortunatly the Imod is not more expensive than the classic Ipod, at least when i bought it several years ago.
But the tiny piece of Alo cable itself enhanced a lot compared to a standard cable. Moreover the Imod only works with external amp as the variable output is desactivated. I admit i've never compared to a classic Ipod so it's hard to tell. But the cable itself change the sound so it complicates the comparison. As for HP cables, the HD 25 often comes with a steel cable which sounds awful. Replace it by the Standard cooper Senn cable and it's much smoother and musical. Replace it by a Cardas or an ALO (each one has its sound signature, i prefer the rounder Cardas) and it's still another world on all criterias. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 07:12
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 07:27
The ALO cable is £195 !!!  - ALO will sell you a modded 80Gb iPod plus cable for $565 - which means the iPod costs $120 (which is about the price they are going for on eBay).------------- What? |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 07:28
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I've got the ALO cable pictured in my first post which was provided with the 80g Imod i bought directly.
"A standard iPod with the ALO cable would sound the same IMO." I've got doubts now with all that you said. But only a listening comparison will tell. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 07:50
Nothing I have said cannot be backed up by solid engineering
. (I have worked with Wolfson on testing their audio codecs and know several of the design and product engineers there).You have said: "But the tiny piece of Alo cable itself enhanced a lot compared to a standard cable" - but you cannot use a standard cable on a Red Wine modified iPod so the comparison cannot be made - I now doubt what you have said
 , however an ALO cable can be used on a standard unmodified iPod so the comparison can be made in that set-up. A listening test will confirm or deny what I have said, but not what you have said. (listening tests are subjective and psychological, but valid)*I've just noticed that the ALO cable cannot house the Black Gate capacitors either - looking on the ALO website it appears they use different (smaller) caps, which would probably fit inside the 5g case anyway. ------------- What? |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 08:11
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Ok you worked for Wolfson. Indeed, this conversion chip is what make the Ipod a decent sounding source.
Actually i know well cables in general, and i've owned several ALO cables and it smokes a standard piece of modulation cable, that's what i meant. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 08:18
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^ so my statement is still valid ------------- What? |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 09:55
| Ultimately what I want to do probably wouldn't fall under the term "portable", but my nettop has an S/PDIF out, which I would send to a small, good quality DAC (maybe something by Audophile Products, the "FUBAR"), and then to a good amp and good set of speakers - I'm not talking top of the line, my ears aren't good enough to justify it. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 14:02
I was going to say Cambridge Audio DacMagic, but that costs more than your Nettop
I've been thinking about whether a portable version of that is doable - it's a definite hole in the market at the moment - iPlods don't have SPDIF outs, but the do have USB - it would mean that the portable DAC would have to be a USB controller (the USB DACs currently on the market are USB peripherals, not controllers), but that's not beyond the realms of possibility. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 14:12
Gah, and you made me look it up - beautiful looking device, that.
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Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: February 18 2011 at 15:29
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I definately read this thread title as being something else........ As you were.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 19 2011 at 01:43
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What's your opinion on this, Dean: Can a copper speaker cable sound different than a steel speaker cable? I'm too lazy to dig up the formulae, but I think that any difference would manifest in frequency ranges that are several orders of magnitude away from our range of hearing. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 19 2011 at 01:50
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Anyway, my strategy is to avoid cables completely. Hey Oliver, check out this one: http://www.sennheiser.com/sennheiser/home_en.nsf/root/private_headsets_mobile_music_502417" rel="nofollow">  It's Sennheiser's flagship bluetooth headphone set, the M-550 Travel. THD: <0.1% at 1khz. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 19 2011 at 02:16
Don't say that, unless you have a real auditive deficiency. Every music lover deserve a decent musical system, and a computer will not do the trick. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 19 2011 at 02:20
I have to warn you that i don't want to go into painful polemic about hifi like i did in the past with a certain mike in regalia, who i hope is not in the corner. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 19 2011 at 03:42
I know that you can't appreciate rational arguments, but hopefully there are many others around who do. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 19 2011 at 04:05
I don't have an opinion because I don't know what it is and can't find anything with google.
I assume these cables must have some copper, silver, gold or aluminium in them or on them because steel is a poor conductor, which is the polar opposite of what you want in speaker cables. Steel is used in co-ax cables and overhead power cables for mechanical strength, the "conductor" in those cables is copper and aluminium respectively.
My uninformed opinion is probably unprintable.
I have OFC speaker leads myself - not because of any specific electrical characteristic of Oxygen Free Copper (which isn't any different to normal copper) or because they sounded better than normal copper (because, they don't), but because that's what they were made of when I bought them and they were cheap and more flexible than standard 10A twinflex.. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 19 2011 at 05:24
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^ I picked up the "steel cable" notion from Oliver's post ... apparently (according to Wikipedia) speaker wires are almost universally made of copper, the difference is mainly in the diameter or whether they're made up of a lot of individual strains or a few more solid ones. Well, getting back to my previous point: My portable solution doesn't have any cables at all. Of course the bluetooth headset has some internal cables to connect the speakers to the amp, but the point is that they're sort of taken out of the equation, and the manufacturer of the headset (be it Nokia or Sennheiser) can choose the optimum solution ... and that also applies to matching speaker impedance to amplifier power. Another interesting notion: You can use the combination of iPhone and bluetooth headset. Not only does it give you maximum usability because you can accept calls without either taking off the headset or touching the phone, but it also completely bypasses the D/A converters of the iPhone headphone jack. So if you use for example iPhone + Sennheiser M-550, the drawback is the compression via bluetooth, but apart from that in terms of audio quality it's pretty much completely implemented by the Sennheiser hardware. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 19 2011 at 05:28
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And one last thing about speaker wire from wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-end_audio_cables" rel="nofollow - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-end_audio_cables "Roger Russell—a former engineer and speaker designer for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McIntosh_Labs" rel="nofollow - McIntosh Labs —details how expensive speaker wire brand marketing misinforms consumers in his online essay called Speaker Wire - A History. He writes, "The industry has now reached the point where [wire] resistance and listening quality are not the issues any more, although listening claims may still be made....The strategy in selling these products is, in part, to appeal to those who are looking to impress others with something unique and expensive." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-end_audio_cables#cite_note-Russell-1" rel="nofollow - - ] " I liked that because IMO it really perfectly characterizes the audiophile movement. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 19 2011 at 05:55
That's generally as far as my interest goes - thick cable for low transmission losses and multi-strand for flexibility (anyone who uses words like "skin effect" when talking audio will get short shrift from me)
That is the one key point - the total matching in the audio path - whether the manufacturer does it is another question. Historically one-box systems have not been good quality, the one-box being a cost factor rather than a quality factor. Active speakers (which essentially this is) have the potential of being great, but have had too many disadvantages to be practical.
Not had much experience with bluetooth audio, I use a Linx B-Tube external speaker with my Nokia 5800 but experience far to many drop-outs for me to want to investigate the method further. I prefer to drive the B-Tube using the audio o/p of my Archos for portable use and only use the 5800 as a phone now.
In principle byassing the iPhone's DAC is only an advantage (audiophile wise) if the DAC in the headset/external speaker is better - my guess is they will be the same, similar or equivalent - I also suspect that the same codecs are used in high-end systems, but with more attention to the audio path after the conversion (powersupply decoupling, isolation from the digital section, track layout, components used, etc.). Sennheiser are audio experts, more over they are headphone experts - I trust them to get it right and would expect that their audio engineering exceeds Apple's by a long way.
The one attraction of your set-up for me is the hands-free aspect - if I could set that up for home studio use so I don't get my headphone lead tangled with guitar and mic leads that would be a bonus - unfortunately my PC doesn't have bluetooth, and the dongle I bought won't transmit A2DP. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 19 2011 at 06:06
"Even with poor-quality wire, an /wiki/Sound" rel="nofollow - audible degradation of sound may not exist. Many supposedly audible differences in speaker wire can be attributed to listener bias or the /wiki/Placebo_effect" rel="nofollow - placebo effect . Listener bias is enhanced in no small part by the popular manufacturers' practice of making claims about their products either with no valid engineering or scientific basis, or of no real-world significance. Many manufacturers catering to audiophiles (as well as those supplying less expensive retail markets) also make unmeasurable, if poetic, claims about their wire sounding open, dynamic, or smooth. To justify these claims, many cite electrical properties such as skin effect, /wiki/Characteristic_impedance" rel="nofollow - characteristic impedance of the cable, or /wiki/Resonance" rel="nofollow - resonance , which are generally little understood by consumers. None of these has any measurable effect at audio frequencies, though each matters at radio frequencies #cite_note-1" rel="nofollow - [2] ." ------------- What? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 19 2011 at 06:52
 After all these years you should know by now that I (and probably Mike) will always be impressed by any set-up that is drop-dead gorgeous to look at, but neither of us will ever be swayed by any escoteric claims made for such a system. Your $1500 portable system is amazing, and I would love to own it (though not pay for it ) - however I'm not sure I'd be able to sit on a bus or train and listen to it; nor could I justfy paying three times the price of my current set-up for little gain (I paid $400 for my little French Archos because it had a 250Gb harddrive and improved "docking" versatility over any equivalent portable media player).------------- What? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 19 2011 at 10:39
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^ Oh sure, the audiophile gear looks very cool. And I'm sure that it sounds perfect, too. I would also say that my suggestion (iPad + Nokia BH-505) doesn't sound as good. To me, especially when it comes to mobile listening solutions, the most important criterion is: Does it sound really good? You know, lots of low end (if wanted), crisp treble, excellent imaging and transparency. If the system meets these (subjective) criteria then I don't care if there are other system which - at 10x the price and 10x the hazzle - might sound even better. Plus, like I said, there's the hands-free cableless experience. I've listened to a number of alternatives, mostly in-ear phones, but also earbuds and mid-sized Sennheiser headphones, fed through some Creative players, iPhone/iPad and an Android phone. The BH-505 sounds better than all these, and that's essentially what made me post it here. At first I was quite suspicious because of the compression that's used for the bluetooth transmission - but as I said above, it's not an issue when you use high-bitrate sources. Would it please Oliver? Doubtful - but I'm sure that the Sennheiser M-550 might do the trick - and it comes with the steep price tag that's required for audiophile acceptance.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 01:01
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For my portable device I use Monster Turbine Pro Gold in ear speakers....These are best sounding inear plugs I have found (so far). Here is my problem...I use the Zune music player and I just purchased the new Zune HD32GB device. I had the first gen Zune30GB.....The plugs sound excellent with very deep bass and a very nice mid range and high. On the new Zune HD, not the same and I fear it is due to lower output of the device. I have heard of these headphone amps but know nothing about them.
Do they work? If so because I would also like to purchase a pair of over the ear noise cancelling as I travel a lot...I don't like the Bose, so looking for something better...would spend about US$500 on headphones and not sure on the headphone amp...Are these big bulky amps or small portable?
Looking for advice -------------   
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 01:40
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Yes head amp work!
I don't recommend noise cancelling HP, most of the time they sound bad (like the Senn ones). But the Senn HD 25 is perfectly isolated and it's a very solid pair of HP... There are small HP amps, i recommend the RSA Mustang P51 or, even smaller, the Shadow: 
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 01:52
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You'd also need a quality mini/mini cable to connect your
source to your amp. Cardas does a cheap one, which is musical: 
If you want something more transparent and precise, go for an ALO: 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 06:53
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^ the Shadow is underpowered for anything chunky like cans or any high-impedance headphones - it's designed for 16ohm lightweight headphones. Looking at the cct board I'm guessing it's Class-D - Samuels' doesn't seem to have a spec on the thing, but doing the maths suggests it can kick out 1W into 16ohms.
Noise cancelling headphones are never going to be audiophile, though they may approach hi-fidelity with the cancelling circuit turned off. Anything that electrically modifies the signal you hear is going to have a detrimental affect on the sound. However, if that detrimental effect is noticable in the environment you are using them in, then you probably don't need noise-cancelling but a good pair of enclosed 'phones with minimum spill (ie people can't hear what you are listening to when you're wearing them) - the general idea being if sound can't spill out then background noise can't get in either.
I use noise-cancelling 'phones in an environment with two industrial air-conditioners and a rack of equipment with 100s of 4" fans spinning away - the n-c 'phones block out that drone while still allowing me to hear the telephone ring or the fire-alarm go off (which fully enclosed 'phones would block). ------------- What? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 07:46
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^ that's why I prefer earcanal headphones - and the ones in the Nokia efficiently block noise in both directions. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 10:57
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Awesome!!! Thanks oliverstoned and Dean.......'sounds' like I need one of these new fangled headphone amps!! My Monster plugs just don't sound as well as I think they can......and if I get a higher end pair of cans then its a must. I seriously doubt the ZuneHD will have the output to power them efficiently.
I have never owned a pair of Senn phones, looking online there are a bunch of mfg I had not heard of....and at a pretty penny too...some over US$1000.00...yikes!!!
Dean if the Shadow is underpowered....what other palm sized amp should I look at? -------------
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 11:07
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The interesting question IMO is: What "can size" is required for a superb listening experience? I see no reason why in-ear headphones couldn't do the trick. Instead of first getting huge (expensive) speakers and then looking for an expensive mobile amp to power them, why not spend some money on some high quality in-ear headphones which an iPhone or ZuneHD can easily power efficiently. There are many high-end options there, with manufacturers like Bose, Shure, Sennheiser, Klipsch, Monster, Etymotic etc.. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 11:14
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My old Shure headphones died, so I just ordered myself a pair of http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001V9LPT4" rel="nofollow - these , they should arrive today.
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 12:08
I agree with you....my Monster Turbine ProGold inears are awesome!!! Especially on my first gen Zune30GB....issue is on the new ZuneHD the output is less, I have not been able to find an output comparison between Zune30 and ZuneHD32....but I suspect because the ZuneHD has a web browser, more features, and uses the Nvidia Tegra chip, OLED touchscreen, they needed longer battery power so they reduced the HP output...my guess?
So to make my plugs sound better, fuller is why I asked about the HP amp. Plus for airline flights I would like to own a pair of over the ear cans...but for sure would need an amp. -------------
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Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 12:17
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My last word - as i said
Actually in-ear HP may do the trick (only in portable, at home you can do a lot better), but to get good bass from in ear headphones it is CRITICAL that you have a tight ear-tip seal in your ear canal. And that's why your ear doesn't "breathe" well and it can be quite uncomfortable, as you get a sensation of excessive moisture; At least that's what i experienced. The good side of the Ipod coming is the explosion of the HP market (as well as the HP amp market in the USA mainly). So now there are a lot of new HP models and some are great for portable use. Besides the Headfi forum, I can advice the following website, which is actually the Headroom shop Their HP reviews are quite trustable, but the best is to listen prior to buying: http://www.headphone.com/headphones/" rel="nofollow - http://www.headphone.com/headphones/ |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 12:20
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Reducing HP output power does increase battery life, but I suspect it's something to do with the 1996 French law (proposed EU law) to limit mp3 players to 100dB (or 80dB as proposed) - rather than make one for each market, they are building to the lowest volume standard for everyone. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 12:45
This makes more sense to me.....I know that Microsoft was in the same discussion about reducing mp3 player decibels.
Makes sense since on my ZuneHD I have to have the volume number at about 12 for normal listening....and on the 1st gen Zune30 I can have it at 8 for normal listening.
But even at volume 12 it lacks fullness and low end......so I am hoping a HP amp will help there.
Thanks -------------
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Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 12:51
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[QUOTE=oliverstoned]My last word - as i said Actually in-ear HP may do the trick (only in portable, at home you can do a lot better), but to get good bass from in ear headphones it is CRITICAL that you have a tight ear-tip seal in your ear canal. And that's why your ear doesn't "breathe" well and it can be quite uncomfortable, as you get a sensation of excessive moisture; At least that's what i experienced. The good side of the Ipod coming is the explosion of the HP market (as well as the HP amp market in the USA mainly). So now there are a lot of new HP models and some are great for portable use. Besides the Headfi forum, I can advice the following website, which is actually the Headroom shop Their HP reviews are quite trustable, but the best is to listen prior to buying: http://www.headphone.com/headphones/%5b/QUOTE" rel="nofollow - http://www.headphone.com/headphones/[/QUOTE ] Thanks! in ears are tough after a long flight or even a hour or so....because of the tight seal. Monster has these special gel filled plugs which are excellent but after awhile the ear moisture makes them slide out. I have to break the seal regularly to regain the comfort level.
That is the site I was looking at for audiophile HP cans.....beaucoup dinero!!! -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 13:48
What is still evident is that all the HD amps I've looked at for less than $150 are not going to give a loudness improvement over a standard iPod.
 nb: the "European" power restriction in the iPod is limited by software, not hardware - there are patches to restore the volume level to maximum. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 16:29
Thanks Dean.....I suppose there exists a hack for the ZuneHD to increase volume level? The Shadow is expensive on Rays site...like US350.00
-------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 16:49
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^ not that I can find, but the zune forums appear to be populated by people who don't have a clue about anything. ------------- What? |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 17:07
^ Does anybody have a clue about anything in the world today??
 -------------
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 17:12
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Only me ------------- What? |
Posted By: Catcher10
Date Posted: February 24 2011 at 17:53
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10-4 -------------
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 01:31
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@Oliver: I agree that in-ear headphones can be uncomfortable for some people, especially when used over several hours. Fortunately that's not an issue for me, since I only ever use them for 1-2 hours at a time, which I think is the most common use case. But even with longer use, there's a chance that you will get used to them ... I did, and I didn't like them at all at first. About the output limitation: Especially in that light it makes sense to go for small speakers - or bluetooth headphones which, because they have their own built-in amp, circumvent the issue. They may still have output limitations built in, but at least in that case they're matched with speaker impedance - so the output limitation may actually do its intended job (prevent you from killing your ears). ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 25 2011 at 05:11
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I do agree that in ear HP work as long as you are not disturbed by the potential discomfort.
I had the Etymotic research ER4P (good brand), at the time i was driving it with a good RSA Hornet amp: it has great highs (musical and detailed), but even tightly sealed, it was cruely lacking lows. And when you lack low, you lack dynamic and "image" (soundstage, "3D effect") But i know some other in-ear do low but often on more expensive models. I tried many HP for portable use until the end of my quest: Senn HD25 
It has the following qualities: - Affordable price: 150€ - Sturdy design, very important for portable use and durability. - Good efficiency, making it possible for use without amp if the source is powerful enough and making it greatly enhanced by good portable amp. - Musically, it's neutral ( a great quality because mots HPs, especially affordable ones suffer from a more or less colored sound which "eats" some of your music) and musical (but it's downgraded by the nasty steel cable provided with some versions, replace it by the cooper cable provided with the Senn 6XX), it's almost like a smaller version of the 600, all musical proportions kept. I've been to a shop with my full system and compare it to several HPs of the same price league : some Grados (sound colored and muffled besides but would need a AC powered home amp ), the Denon denon AHD 2000 (disapointed by light lows and lack of neutrality) and few others. I couldn't find better. - Excellent isolation without any "active" system downgrading the sound. 
- It's comfortable an holds well on the head. (BTW it's important to precise that on this kind of earpad/fullsize HPs, the HP's arch must be placed slightly in front of the head and not behind like most youngsters do. It makes the earpads tightly sealed on the ears and make a huge difference in term of lows and so on dynamic, image, etc...same principle than with in-ear HP). It's also much easier to remove than a tighly sealed in-ear with which you may feel "prisoner" because once it's inserted in your ear-canal, it's complicated to remove. -The HP cable is replacable, option that you don't find on many HP. Moreover, many cable manufacturers designed custom cables for HD6XX versions such as Cardas, ALO Audio, Stefanaudio, Moon audio and many others. "Headroom review: Sennheiser HD 25-1-II A legend in studio recording and pro audio circles, the HD25-1-II is Sennheiser's best sealed headphone offering solid isolation and a clean, full tone. The unique headband found on this closed-back 'on-ear' can is perfect for active listening since the design splits to form a 'hat-like' brim in front & in back of the head, providing an extremely stable, comfortable fit. Producers and DJs need the swiveling on-ear cushions which rotate away for one-ear mono mixing. Sound quality is absolutely terrific with powerful impact, solid bass, and clear musical detail resolution." Specs: Sensitivity: 120 dB/V Manufacturer Warranty: 2 Years Warranty: 2 Years Cord Length: 4.5 ft. Microphone: No Detachable Cable: Yes Weight: 140 g. Connector Type: 1/8" with 1/4" adaptor Driver Type: Dynamic Cord Type: Straight Right-Side Coupler Size: Medium Isolation: -10dB Ear Coupler Type: Earpad Impedance @ 1kHz: 70 Wireless: No Headphone Type: Earpad Noise Cancelling: No Acoustic Seal: Closed IMO, a good portable system is a great luxury (that doesn't replace a good home setup) for outdoor listening (i enjoy it a lot in the summer sitting in the garden or while gardening) and great for holidays making it a decent musical source when you're far away from your system and your precious records. 
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Posted By: The Wrinkler
Date Posted: February 26 2011 at 16:32
| Oliver, nice setup man! I was wondering how you feel about your amps? Any recommendations on some amps? I'm looking for something portable, but still strong. Maybe around the $300 mark, because I know they don't come cheap. I've also been looking into buying the Sennheiser HD25, but changed my mind for the AIAIAI TMA-1. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: February 28 2011 at 02:01
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I'd say RSA Mustang P51 or Headamp Pico. There are currently among the best and are very small! 
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Posted By: The Wrinkler
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 17:00
I have those Klipsch S4, they are really good, but I upgraded to the Panasonic HJE900, I think for a little more you couldv'e bought the pannies instead of the Klipsch. I love the S4 because of the comfort, you hardly feel them in your ears. Have fun with them, I did  |
Posted By: The Wrinkler
Date Posted: March 04 2011 at 17:02
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Oliver, so how does the pico compare to the mustang? I know the pico's come in all sorts of colors too, which should be fun, but whats good quality for the money? Need something to make those Krautrock songs shine through my Grado SR80 |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 10 2011 at 08:40
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Hi, sorry i missed your post. There are both excellent and well built.
In term of sound, they both feature a terrific midrange but the Mustang P51 is more neutral so eventually my heart goes to the Mustang. And the Mustang is also aivalable in several colors. |
Posted By: Jörgemeister
Date Posted: March 25 2011 at 06:09
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Zune120 + mini3 + Senn HD25 mostly. But have been using Alessandro MS1 latelly, what a superb headphones, i certainly prefer it over the SR80i The HD25 is king in the portables indeed. ------------- |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 25 2011 at 15:03
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Hi, Nice! I think that Grado needs a powerful home-amp to work fully. What cable do you use on your HD25? Stock cable? Cooper or steel? |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 25 2011 at 16:11
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...so what's the advantage of using a wire that is a poorer conductor than copper? ------------- What? |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 26 2011 at 03:37
Arguments based on real physics ... those don't really fly in audiophile discussions.  ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Jörgemeister
Date Posted: March 28 2011 at 09:45
I use the stock cable, and i dont really believe that the cable would make so much difference, unless is a very crappy cable and a good one . Ive been meaning to recable it but just for the sake of a shorter and more easy to handle cord.as for grados at least the one i have, they are pretty easy to drive, sounds good even from my player directly. Now the AKG K601... a whole different story, my humble desktop amp cant handle it well, the k601 suppose to have great potential but i am yet to find out. I am working on moding my SR80i but that is a looooong term project, forst i have to decide what I want and start. ------------- |
Posted By: Jörgemeister
Date Posted: March 28 2011 at 10:01
you should see the discussiona at headfi, people there go apesh*t about how the cable changes the sound. hell i have seen threads of guys who bought 99% pure silver cable for 4000$ to recable 1 headphone! ------------- |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 29 2011 at 04:50
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Depending on the precise HD 25 model, the headphone comes with a silver OR a cooper stock cable. The silver cable sounds HORRIBLE and you don't have to believe in cables to hear the difference. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 29 2011 at 06:49
You'd need a real dedicated AC-powered home amp to feed him properly. But to choose, i prefer the more-neutral and extremely musical HD600 (over the 650) as home HP. |
Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: March 29 2011 at 07:07
Why would Sennheiser ship the headphones with cables that clearly sound HORRIBLE? I find that hard to believe. ------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 29 2011 at 09:18
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Because this model is intended for "perchmen", among other profesional uses. When you see reporters outdoor on TV, they almost all wear this model. That's why they provide the HD25 with an extremely solid steel cable so that the cable is never damaged, whathever the circonstances, but the sound is terrible, musically speaking. 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 29 2011 at 09:54
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perchmen == boom operator.
Hold-up ...  This steel cable... are you sure the conductors are steel? If the steel construction is for durability then the steel would be part of the armour sheath, not the signal conductor, which would still be copper. ------------- What? |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 30 2011 at 01:43
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Thanks, i hesitated between the two terms.
Have a look at the product description for these two HD25 models and the stock cable provided: (So there's no need for  )
http://www.sennheiser.co.uk/uk/home_en.nsf/root/private_headphones_dj-headphones_502188" rel="nofollow - http://www.sennheiser.co.uk/uk/home_en.nsf/root/private_headphones_dj-headphones_502188 http://www.sennheiser.co.uk/uk/home_en.nsf/root/private_headphones_dj-headphones_502103" rel="nofollow - http://www.sennheiser.co.uk/uk/home_en.nsf/root/private_headphones_dj-headphones_502103 Edit: i'm not sure indeed about the exact cable's structure. But my ears were hurt (and not only mine) by the "steel" cable. Switching to the "OFC" stock cable is a huge improvment, like day and night. It makes the HD25 good whereas IT'S NOT with the steel stock cable. And it's the same step up when switching to a well-choosed "race" cable for HD25, such as an ALO or a Cardas (those i know), another day and night difference. To sum up, it's like having different headphones...hard to believe? |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 31 2011 at 05:22
Did i told you that i own a 2000 dollars power cable on my home system? KING COBRA Retail Price: $1995 Dates of manufacture: 1999 -- 2001 Description: Black shrink-wrap. Gold lettering at ends over large black mesh covered center tube which narrowed nearing AC connectors. Features: -- Tech-flex shielded -- FeSi 1000 compounds -- Custom made gold plated connectors -- Cryogenic treatments -- 8 gauge silver plated copper Comments: Standard bearer for all high-end power cords. Set extremely high marks for performance and paved the way for the entire after-market power cord category. Many review accolades and awards. Smooth, liquid and refined sound, full bass, analog-like top frequencies. Still a legend, collectors item and favored by many for Digital sources. An excellent power cord, painstakingly made even by today's standards. 
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 31 2011 at 05:34
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 31 2011 at 06:06
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Don't be afraid of the snake
You don't imagine the turbo it makes to my system. "With digital sources it was almost as if we had switched from 44.1k/16 bit to96k/24 bit. We now run all our analogue machines, workstations and the mixing console from the Shunyata equipment." -- Andy Jackson, Senior Mastering Engineer: Astoria Studio UK Have a look at Shunyata website: http://www.shunyata.com/Content/endorsements-Prof.html#Phillips%20Crest%20National" rel="nofollow - http://www.shunyata.com/Content/endorsements-Prof.html#Phillips'%20Crest%20National |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: March 31 2011 at 06:40
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^ so you have the Hydra power conditioner too? ------------- What? |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 31 2011 at 07:19
| No, i have other (industrial) filters (and separate/dedicated power lines) but the cables work by themselves. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 31 2011 at 07:23
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Another kind of power filters which work well, especially on power amps
is Richard Gray. But there are too expensive for me: %20" rel="nofollow - http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com/ |
Posted By: Jörgemeister
Date Posted: April 12 2011 at 13:04
both are HD25-II version BTW have you or anyone else tried the Sony V6? im not a fan of sony because they always put up so many stuff and most bidget is crap tbh. But that V6 is a lot of fun, i bought it for a friend and made it detachable cord to get easier on the go. nothing special the mod. but i was impressed with the sound, a bit V shaped but with nice bass and highs, I could totally use it one day or another, its different and would be nice to alternate with the more analytical HD25. and unlike the HD25 the V6 was great out of my player alone, not that the senn isnt but i feel that i am loosing so much without the amp. anyway just wanted to share, and dont ditch sony for the crap models :p this was a very nice surprise. ------------- |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: April 15 2011 at 06:27
| No, never listened to it but indeed i've heard that they have some very good professional models. |
Posted By: Jörgemeister
Date Posted: May 15 2011 at 10:42
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Anyone planning to get the new beyer DT1350? looks promising, and some pleople at headfi are impressed about it, tho could be only because its new. however is still to be seen if the HD25 gets a worthy competition as the best portable all rounder. ------------- |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: May 20 2011 at 06:26
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Selection of first price headphones: http://www.headphone.com/selection-guide/top-picks/top-cheap-headphones.php" rel="nofollow - http://www.headphone.com/selection-guide/top-picks/top-cheap-headphones.php |
Posted By: Jörgemeister
Date Posted: June 01 2011 at 14:52
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I like better Head-fi's Joker's Awesome comparisson or portabel headphpones http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/433318/shootout-82-portable-headphones-reviewed-superlux-hd668b-prodipe-pro-800-added-05-15#post_5828504" rel="nofollow - http://www.head-fi.org/forum/thread/433318/shootout-82-portable-headphones-reviewed-superlux-hd668b-prodipe-pro-800-added-05-15#post_5828504 ------------- |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: June 03 2011 at 06:26
| Indeed he did a great work and he ranks high the HD25, but i'm not sure if he uses the steel or the cooper cable. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: June 06 2011 at 14:39
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Okay... I have just heard back from Sennheiser (UK) over the Steel cable issue, and this is their answer: 'The steel is only for reinforcing and strength, it is not connected to the signal conductors at all, which are made from exactly the same Oxygen Free Copper wire as the non-steel version of the cable'. So, if you can hear a difference then it is either confirmation bias or some hitherto unknown and unmeasurable effect between an active good conductor and passive poor conductor at audio frequencies propagating by electrical conduction alone.
d
 b------------- What? |
Posted By: Icarium
Date Posted: June 06 2011 at 19:11
I constantly reading Pedophile  when I glance this name swftly with my eyes, and I have to take myself read it proparly everytime to read it the way it is supposed to be read, -------------  
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: June 19 2011 at 16:56
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Been a while since I wandered into this sort of discussion. I work at an electronics recycling depot, and I recently found a pair of Yamaha HP-50 orthodynamic headphones in perfect working order, right now I'm using them as my main cans. They are mono which is sort of funny, but they are really a fun pair of headphones. The sound is bassy and slightly muddled, which I actually really like. Also, they look really cool.  note: these aren't mine, just a picture from the internet. Mine haven't been recabled to stereo, which is something it seems most people do. |
Posted By: Jörgemeister
Date Posted: July 10 2011 at 11:34
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Kudos on the Ortho, never heard one myself, yet.   zune120>mini3 I made a cable for the HD25 using mogami 2893, calrad 3.5mm plug and cardas senn plug, it came up a bit stiffy... ------------- |
Posted By: Jörgemeister
Date Posted: July 22 2011 at 12:28
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no news here? So i got the little beyer DT1350, and so far I cant say I'm impressed, not even sure if I am gonna keep it. one thing I know for sure if these NEED to be amped and it doesnt seem to be an upgrade to the HD25, sound-wise. ------------- |