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slidesandbends 
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 Topic: Glimmers of Prog: The Beatles
Posted: February 26 2010 at 09:19 |
Hey guys, every now and then I find myself listening to these extremely boarder line beatles songs. Helter skelter for example, great use of dorian scalar mode from george harrison, great use of effects, thematic lyrics....and we all know there are many others. Do you listen to any? Do you see my point?
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tamijo
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 09:40 |
Most track from about 1965 on, I find to be very nice music and i listen to regulary.
Glims of Prog in between for sure, im not the kinda person that would look for it though, if i like the music i like the music.
Helter Skelter might even qualify to be one of the first Metal tracks ever realeased.
Edited by tamijo - February 26 2010 at 09:40
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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slidesandbends
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 10:04 |
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tammijo is your icon from the cover of a mars volta cd?
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jampa17
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 10:36 |
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The Beatles made the strange, risky and unmatchable transition from been completely Pop-y to convert into a great experimental and creative band. From "Love, Love me Do" to Sgt. Pepper there was a total risky transtition that end up well. Shame that not a single pop-rock band have done that since then. The Beatles had the little help of drug abuse during that age... that makes more acceptable the transition without becoming outcast of the media... don't know if I'm making sense at all but... well...
Edited by jampa17 - February 26 2010 at 10:40
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Change the program inside... Stay in silence is a crime.
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chopper
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 10:36 |
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As tamijo says, "Helter Skelter" is more of a proto-metal song than a prog song. There are glimmers of prog earlier than this e.g. "Tomorrow never knows".
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Queen By-Tor
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 10:46 |
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I Want You (She's So Heavy)
nuff said
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tamijo
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 12:49 |
 slidesandbends wrote:
tammijo is your icon from the cover of a mars volta cd? |
Yes
It from the Goliat CD
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Prog is whatevey you want it to be. So dont diss other peoples prog, and they wont diss yours
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 16:34 |
jampa17 wrote:
The Beatles made the strange, risky and unmatchable transition from been completely Pop-y to convert into a great experimental and creative band. From "Love, Love me Do" to Sgt. Pepper there was a total risky transtition that end up well. Shame that not a single pop-rock band have done that since then. The Beatles had the little help of drug abuse during that age... that makes more acceptable the transition without becoming outcast of the media... don't know if I'm making sense at all but... well... |
I don't think they were the only ones ... even the Rolling Stones did some psychedelic stuff that went far out, even if druggy ... (Their Satanic Majesty's Request) ... and it was a very good album and you and I can sit here and listen to it ... and actually say ... it's progressive ... and these two were not the only ones. By the time that the Moody Blues did their opus first 2 albums, they were also trying to break the conventions of "pop music" ... which was still too harsh ... but there were signs of rebellion and the really big bands like the Beatles and Rolling Stones and then Kinks ... DID push the buttons ... it was pretty obvious that they were bored and wanted to do something different ... and I'm sure that if you were an oil baron (an record company baron in this case) ... you would have said something like ... ohh as long as they sell 2.1 million I don't care ... let them do whatever they want!
... and it sold ...
But the precedent, I am coming to believe was not ... The Beatles ... but the changes in the times ... TV got super big in that time into the late 60's to the point where the VietNam War and the Irish conflict were the serials every night on TV ... and that gave people a chance to see something else around the world, and it is likely that when you see something like that for the first time ... that when it comes to your music or whatevery you want to do ... you want to do it differently ... to accomodate something else that you saw and felt ... and music changed like film did and the arts ... and I would think that FILM was probably the single greatest thing to help all this ... as film music already had its mavericks ... Bernard Herrman being one of the most "progressive" of ALL music composers for film, probably EVER.
That the Beatles learned a little is not surprising ... when you visit all over Europe ... there are so many different cultures and musics that you can hear by simply swabbing the radio knob in those days ... and the variety is so big and strong that it is almost likely that they decided to push the button on the record company ... because of it.
In "Let It Be" there are scenes when I really think that what was hurting the Beatles was that they were tired of simply clever pop songs and wanted to do something else ... that the creativity was not ... another clever worded pop song? ... and to me both the White Album and Abbey Road ... were their way of saying ... no more pop music ... if we can't do what we want ... but by that time they had fought so hard and so much for their freedom that it took its toll ...
Nature of the game is ... fight until you die! ... and prog music is no different ... except for a pair of lucky bands that have a million fans!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Floydman
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Joined: November 24 2009
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Posted: February 26 2010 at 18:01 |
slidesandbends wrote:
Hey guys,
every now and then I find myself listening to these extremely boarder line beatles songs. Helter skelter for example, great use of dorian scalar mode from george harrison, great use of effects, thematic lyrics....and we all know there are many others. Do you listen to any? Do you see my point? |
I think George Harrison was using the Dorian scale as far back as "Don't Bother Me" in 1963. They did use contrasting modes on "Norwegian Wood" it has dorian and then mixolydian and then "Eleanor Rigby" also uses two modes. I don't know if anyone was doing this in rock music at the time. John Lennon "Happiness Is A Warm Gun" has like four contrasting sections and one at one point using a polyrhythm.
"Lucy In the Sky With Diamonds" has a rhythmic alternation of 3/4 and 4/4 meter and it's use of tambora drone on the verse. The song has three distinct sections with parts going from a slow psychedelic section and then to a rocking section. The guitar colors also change from a slide guitar which doubles the vocal to the next section guitar through a Leslie speaker.
To me their greatest experimental song is "Tomorrow Never Knows". They basically one -upped everyone in rock music with "Tomorrow Never Knows" and that includes Frank Zappa. Instead of the usual backdrop of standard rock instruments they created a backdrop of psychedelic sounds using a series of loops drones, and electronic effects. I think they even took a segment of "Taxman" and put it backwards on "Tomorow Never Knows".
I like the Velvet Underground also but when you are talking about some serious experimentation I think the Beatles had them beat easily with songs like "Tomorrow Never Knows" and "Strawberry Fields Forever".
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moshkito
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Joined: January 04 2007
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Posted: February 28 2010 at 20:33 |
To me their greatest experimental song is "Tomorrow Never Knows". They
basically one -upped everyone in rock music with "Tomorrow Never Knows"
and that includes Frank Zappa. Instead of the usual backdrop of
standard rock instruments they created a backdrop of psychedelic sounds
using a series of loops drones, and electronic effects. I think they
even took a segment of "Taxman" and put it backwards on "Tomorow Never
Knows".
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Even John Lennon had commented what a great guitarist Frank Zappa was ... and I never thought that the Beatles were in it to compete with Frank, or vice versa, although Frank did put The Beatles on when he did "We're In It For The Money" ... complete with cover mock up ... which was exactly what it said ... by that time, The Beatles had sold out for the fame and the money ... they were able to get away some, but by the time when it came to be, it became a Let It Be instead and everyone at each other ... in the end, they could not appreciate and respect each other's musicianship enough to do more with it. When it all comes down to it, Paul's music went down hill after the first 4 or 5 albums ... kinda ended after "Band on the Run" ... and just a bunch of pop songs! John was trying to be more meaningful about his work, but in the end, I think that even he was tired of the same old thing and having to figure out what next ... George learned a lot from the Beatles and went back to doing songs and a couple of no sense things ... Ringo, an excellent drummer with The Beatles, kinda became the world's worst drummer over night -- maybe the music did not have enough in it and he was too lazy to help make it better ... I think the combination of the 4 folks made it progressive to a degree, but only to the extent that they wanted to do more with the music than just another pop song ... but when you're that big and that famous and have so much money ... inspiration ... is just another pop song? Oh well ... so much for learning anything about the music! I've said before, that I really think that the person that made them "better" was George Martin ... who was someone that really had the music itself as the focal point, away from the personalities and every thing else ... The Beatles may have been big, but I think that Frank Zappa will be appreciated way longer ... check out Zappa plays Zappa so you can get an idea ... and how much of it has become "prog" ... where Gentle Giant might have been academic and composed, Frank was ... fun!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com
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Floydman
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Joined: November 24 2009
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Posted: March 05 2010 at 10:54 |
moshkito wrote:
To me their greatest experimental song is "Tomorrow Never Knows". They basically one -upped everyone in rock music with "Tomorrow Never Knows" and that includes Frank Zappa. Instead of the usual backdrop of standard rock instruments they created a backdrop of psychedelic sounds using a series of loops drones, and electronic effects. I think they even took a segment of "Taxman" and put it backwards on "Tomorow Never Knows".
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Even John Lennon had commented what a great guitarist Frank Zappa was ... and I never thought that the Beatles were in it to compete with Frank, or vice versa, although Frank did put The Beatles on when he did "We're In It For The Money" ... complete with cover mock up ... which was exactly what it said ... by that time, The Beatles had sold out for the fame and the money ... they were able to get away some, but by the time when it came to be, it became a Let It Be instead and everyone at each other ... in the end, they could not appreciate and respect each other's musicianship enough to do more with it.
When it all comes down to it, Paul's music went down hill after the first 4 or 5 albums ... kinda ended after "Band on the Run" ... and just a bunch of pop songs! John was trying to be more meaningful about his work, but in the end, I think that even he was tired of the same old thing and having to figure out what next ... George learned a lot from the Beatles and went back to doing songs and a couple of no sense things ... Ringo, an excellent drummer with The Beatles, kinda became the world's worst drummer over night -- maybe the music did not have enough in it and he was too lazy to help make it better ...
I think the combination of the 4 folks made it progressive to a degree, but only to the extent that they wanted to do more with the music than just another pop song ... but when you're that big and that famous and have so much money ... inspiration ... is just another pop song?
Oh well ... so much for learning anything about the music!
I've said before, that I really think that the person that made them "better" was George Martin ... who was someone that really had the music itself as the focal point, away from the personalities and every thing else ...
The Beatles may have been big, but I think that Frank Zappa will be appreciated way longer ... check out Zappa plays Zappa so you can get an idea ... and how much of it has become "prog" ... where Gentle Giant might have been academic and composed, Frank was ... fun!
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The Beatles introduced many of the major elements of the psychedelic rock sound and rock sound overall with A Hard Day’s Night electric Rickebocker 12 string guitar, "I Feel Fine" using guitar feedback; "Norwegian Wood" using a sitar, lead fuzz bass on “Think For Yourself”, the employment of backwards spooling on "Rain", multiple loops on “Tomorrow Never Knows” and the change of time signatures on the bridge of “She Said She Said. There is drug references began to appear in their songs from "Day Tripper" and more explicitly from "Tomorrow Never Knows" from their 1966 album Revolver. The bizarre fade-out/silence/ then fade-in musical coda of “Strawberry Fields Forever”. I don’t know if they were the first to use volume swells as some have said but they beat Jeff Beck to it.
All modern music owes a debt to The Beatles. Listen to some Animal Collective after you hear “Strawberry Fields Forever.
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Rottenhat
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Posted: March 06 2010 at 12:09 |
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Still no way I would pay 200+ euros for the beatles remaster box.
What the hell? Are the Beatles Wifes/Widows in a cash dilemma?
Edited by Rottenhat - March 06 2010 at 12:09
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Language is a virus from outer space.
-William S. Burroughs
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lucas
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Posted: March 06 2010 at 12:39 |
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Yesterday, I listened to 'the magical mystery tour' album, and I couldn't help thinking how huge their influence was on the development of brit-pop. Apart from some psychedelic elements (which is not wonder given the era it was recorded), and the orchestrations I didn"t see much link with prog.
Edited by lucas - March 06 2010 at 12:40
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Atavachron
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Posted: March 06 2010 at 14:39 |
slidesandbends wrote:
Do you see my point? |
not really, no
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earlyprog
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Posted: March 07 2010 at 13:46 |
lucas wrote:
Yesterday, I listened to 'the magical mystery tour' album, and I couldn't help thinking how huge their influence was on the development of brit-pop. Apart from some psychedelic elements (which is not wonder given the era it was recorded), and the orchestrations I didn"t see much link with prog. |
Of course, there's only proto-prog like Strawberry Fields Forever (US psyche with mellotron), Flying (space rock with mellotron), Baby You're A Rich Man (use of clavioline), I Am The Walrus (UK psyche), Blue Jay Way (space rock) - a series of progressive technological aspects.
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SergiUriah
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Posted: March 08 2010 at 17:22 |
moshkito wrote:
The Beatles may have been big, but I think that Frank Zappa will be appreciated way longer ...
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...appreciated way longer more than Beatles...by yourself and a bunch of prog fans perhaps. Zappa was big but I don´t see any valid comparison between them.
The Beatles are openly over the rest.
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Dellinger
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Posted: March 08 2010 at 21:17 |
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A day in the life sounds a bit proggy to me.
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Floydman
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Posted: March 09 2010 at 10:43 |
earlyprog wrote:
lucas wrote:
Yesterday, I listened to 'the magical mystery tour' album, and I couldn't help thinking how huge their influence was on the development of brit-pop. Apart from some psychedelic elements (which is not wonder given the era it was recorded), and the orchestrations I didn"t see much link with prog. |
Of course, there's only proto-prog like Strawberry Fields Forever (US psyche with mellotron), Flying (space rock with mellotron), Baby You're A Rich Man (use of clavioline), I Am The Walrus (UK psyche), Blue Jay Way (space rock) - a series of progressive technological aspects. |
Very much agreed except I think "Strawberry Fields Forever" doesn't SOUND like any kind of psychedelic rock at the time with the backward percussion, swarmandal, strings, and of course the fade-out and the reverse freak-out fade-in coda that ends the track. Where do songs like "Tomorrow Never Knows", Love You To", "Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite", and "Eleanor Rigby" fit in?
There are lot of proggish aspects to songs like "Sgt Pepper's Reprise"/"A Day in the Life", "Because", and I Want You (She So Heavy). "Happiness Is A Warm Gun" has four contrasting sections with six different time signatures in it's first 21 bars. The Abbey Road Medleys which is not really a medley are all very experimental if not proggish. "Revolution #9" has to be avant-garde RIO?
Edited by Floydman - March 09 2010 at 10:44
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earlyprog
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Posted: March 09 2010 at 13:55 |
^You're right that Strawberry Fields Forever hardly conforms with any conventional genre (hence prog...eclectic prog?). In fact I find it hard to determine the genre of most of their songs and only tried to do it for the proto-prog material on Magical Mystery Tour.
A Day In The Life: The intro is folky and the drone parts point towards space rock or US psyche while (after 2 minutes) there are definite UK psyche parts such as the marching bass part.
Happiness Is A Warm Gun is eclectic prog mixing various genres (folk, R&B, soul, reaggae-ish...rock) and meters.
Revolution #9: musique-concrete - it has a lot in common with Stockhausen's Gesang Der Junglinge, Pierre Schaeffer's Symphonie Pour Un Homme Seule and John Cage's Williams Mix.
Tomorrow Never Knows: raga ala Cage?
Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite: UK psyche
Eleanor Rigby: classical + R&B?
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Floydman
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Posted: March 10 2010 at 09:25 |
earlyprog wrote:
^You're right that Strawberry Fields Forever hardly conforms with any conventional genre (hence prog...eclectic prog?). In fact I find it hard to determine the genre of most of their songs and only tried to do it for the proto-prog material on Magical Mystery Tour.
A Day In The Life: The intro is folky and the drone parts point towards space rock or US psyche while (after 2 minutes) there are definite UK psyche parts such as the marching bass part.
Happiness Is A Warm Gun is eclectic prog mixing various genres (folk, R&B, soul, reaggae-ish...rock) and meters.
Revolution #9: musique-concrete - it has a lot in common with Stockhausen's Gesang Der Junglinge, Pierre Schaeffer's Symphonie Pour Un Homme Seule and John Cage's Williams Mix.
Tomorrow Never Knows: raga ala Cage?
Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite: UK psyche
Eleanor Rigby: classical + R&B? |
"A Day in the Life" seems to point to what the Moody Blues would do later with the use of the orchestra and muli-sectional songs.
"Tomorrow Never Knows" uses these elements of avant styled sound collage, backward music and Indian drones to create psychedelia. Like "Strawberry Fields Forever" I don't hear any connection to what American bands were doing at the time.
"Eleanor Rigby" is a string octet arrangement with classical influence with rock styled vocals
Then there is George Harrison Indian songs like "Love You To" and "Within You Without You".
Edited by Floydman - March 10 2010 at 09:26
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Glimmers of Prog: The Beatles
