every now and then I find myself listening to these extremely boarder line beatles songs. Helter skelter for example, great use of dorian scalar mode from george harrison, great use of effects, thematic lyrics....and we all know there are many others. Do you listen to any? Do you see my point?

Glims of Prog in between for sure, im not the kinda person that would look for it though, if i like the music i like the music.

Helter Skelter might even qualify to be one of the first Metal tracks ever realeased.

 

 

Yes

 

It from the Goliat CD

 

I don't think they were the only ones ... even the Rolling Stones did some psychedelic stuff that went far out, even if druggy ... (Their Satanic Majesty's Request) ... and it was a very good album and you and I can sit here and listen to it ... and actually say ... it's progressive ... and these two were not the only ones. By the time that the Moody Blues did their opus first 2 albums, they were also trying to break the conventions of "pop music" ... which was still too harsh ... but there were signs of rebellion and the really big bands like the Beatles and Rolling Stones and then Kinks ... DID push the buttons ... it was pretty obvious that they were bored and wanted to do something different ... and I'm sure that if you were an oil baron (an record company baron in this case) ... you would have said something like ... ohh as long as they sell 2.1 million I don't care ... let them do whatever they want!

 

 ... and it sold ...

 

But the precedent, I am coming to believe was not ... The Beatles ... but the changes in the times ... TV got super big in that time into the late 60's to the point where the VietNam War and the Irish conflict were the serials every night on TV ... and that gave people a chance to see something else around the world, and it is likely that when you see something like that for the first time ... that when it comes to your music or whatevery you want to do ... you want to do it differently ... to accomodate something else that you saw and felt ... and music changed like film did and the arts ... and I would think that FILM was probably the single greatest thing to help all this ... as film music already had its mavericks ... Bernard Herrman being one of the most "progressive" of ALL music composers for film, probably EVER.

 

That the Beatles learned a little is not surprising ... when you visit all over Europe ... there are so many different cultures and musics that you can hear by simply swabbing the radio knob in those days ... and the variety is so big and strong that it is almost likely that they decided to push the button on the record company ... because of it.

 

In "Let It Be" there are scenes when I really think that what was hurting the Beatles was that they were tired of simply clever pop songs and wanted to do something else ... that the creativity was not ... another clever worded pop song? ... and to me both the White Album and Abbey Road ... were their way of saying ... no more pop music ... if we can't do what we want ... but by that time they had fought so hard and so much for their freedom that it took its toll ...

 

Nature of the game is ... fight until you die! ... and prog music is no different ... except for a pair of lucky bands that have a million fans!

 

I think George Harrison was using the Dorian scale as far back as "Don't Bother Me" in 1963. They did use contrasting modes on "Norwegian Wood" it has dorian and then mixolydian and then "Eleanor Rigby" also uses two modes. I don't know if anyone was doing this in rock music at the time. John Lennon "Happiness Is A Warm Gun" has  like four contrasting sections and one at one point using a polyrhythm.

 

"Lucy In the Sky With Diamonds" has a rhythmic alternation of 3/4 and 4/4 meter and it's use of tambora drone on the verse. The song has three distinct sections with parts going from a slow psychedelic section and then to a rocking section. The guitar colors also change from a slide guitar which doubles the vocal to the next section guitar through a Leslie speaker.

 

To me their greatest experimental song is "Tomorrow Never Knows".  They basically one -upped everyone in rock music with "Tomorrow Never Knows" and that includes Frank Zappa. Instead of the usual backdrop of standard rock instruments they created a backdrop of psychedelic sounds using a series of loops drones, and  electronic effects. I think they even took a segment of "Taxman" and put it backwards on "Tomorow Never Knows".

 

I like the Velvet Underground also but when you are talking about some serious experimentation I think the Beatles had them beat easily with songs like "Tomorrow Never Knows" and "Strawberry Fields Forever".

 

 The Beatles introduced many of the major elements of the psychedelic rock sound and rock sound overall with A Hard Day’s Night electric Rickebocker 12 string guitar, "I Feel Fine" using guitar feedback; "Norwegian Wood" using a sitar, lead fuzz bass on “Think For Yourself”, the employment of backwards spooling on "Rain", multiple loops on “Tomorrow Never Knows” and the change of time signatures on the bridge of “She Said She Said. There is drug references began to appear in their songs from "Day Tripper" and more explicitly from "Tomorrow Never Knows" from their 1966 album Revolver. The bizarre fade-out/silence/ then fade-in musical coda of “Strawberry Fields Forever”. I don’t know if they were the first to use volume swells as some have said but they beat Jeff Beck to it.

 

Of course, there's only proto-prog like Strawberry Fields Forever (US psyche with mellotron), Flying (space rock with mellotron), Baby You're A Rich Man (use of clavioline), I Am The Walrus (UK psyche), Blue Jay Way (space rock) - a series of progressive technological aspects.

...appreciated way longer more than Beatles...by yourself and a bunch of prog fans perhaps. Zappa was big but I don´t see any valid comparison between them.

The Beatles are openly over the rest.

 

 

 

Very much agreed except I think "Strawberry Fields Forever" doesn't  SOUND like any kind of psychedelic rock at the time with the backward percussion, swarmandal, strings, and of course the fade-out and the reverse freak-out fade-in coda that ends the track. Where do songs like "Tomorrow Never Knows", Love You To", "Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite", and "Eleanor Rigby" fit in?

 

There are lot of proggish aspects to songs like "Sgt Pepper's Reprise"/"A Day in the Life", "Because", and I Want You (She So Heavy).  "Happiness Is A Warm Gun" has four contrasting sections with six different time signatures in it's first 21 bars. The Abbey Road Medleys which is not really a medley are all very experimental if not proggish. "Revolution #9" has to be avant-garde RIO?

 

 

A Day In The Life: The intro is folky and the drone parts point towards space rock or US psyche while (after 2 minutes) there are definite UK psyche parts such as the marching bass part.

 

Happiness Is A Warm Gun is eclectic prog mixing various genres (folk, R&B, soul, reaggae-ish...rock) and meters.

 

Revolution #9: musique-concrete - it has a lot in common with Stockhausen's Gesang Der Junglinge, Pierre Schaeffer's Symphonie Pour Un Homme Seule and John Cage's Williams Mix.

 

Tomorrow Never Knows: raga ala Cage?

 

Being for the Benefit of Mr. Kite: UK psyche

 

Eleanor Rigby: classical + R&B?

 

"A Day in  the Life" seems to point to what the Moody Blues would do later with the use of the orchestra and muli-sectional songs.

 

"Tomorrow Never Knows" uses these elements of avant styled sound collage, backward music and Indian drones to create psychedelia. Like "Strawberry Fields Forever" I don't hear any connection to what American bands were doing at the time.

 

"Eleanor Rigby" is a string octet arrangement  with classical influence with rock styled vocals

 

Then there is George Harrison Indian songs like "Love You To" and "Within You Without You".

 

 

Anyway, they are examples of a much more elaborate use of indian instruments than any other songs of the period. They were preceeded by Heart Full Of Soul (The Yardbirds May '65), See My Friends (Kinks June '65) and The Byrds' Stranger In A Strange Land (Sept '65), Eight MIles High and Why? (Jan '66). Then you have Mind Gardens (again, The Byrds Nov '66) and The Candle Burns (aka Peace Of Mind) (The Beatles? '66?).

 

For the latter, go to http://www.myspace.com/thecandleburns - http://www.myspace.com/thecandleburns

 

I suppose Zappa's Help I'm A Rock (March '66) also is sort of a raga.

 

Well none of those songs you mention actually use Indian instrumentation or what I call classical Indian in form.  The Beatles did bring out the sitar on Rubber Soul 1965 which became a huge element in psychedelic music. "Love You To" and "Within You Without You" are classical Indian in instrumentation, rhythm  and in form. Songs like "Tomorrow Never Knows" and "Lucy in the  Sky with Diamonds" use the tamboura as a drone instrument in a rock context.