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dojonane View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Paganism / Prog Connection ?
    Posted: March 24 2006 at 01:59
My querry is one of a more pluralistic (read: non musical) nature so I
won't feel all dejected like if no one takes interest, but I thought, what the
hey, there are other themes that re-appear in progressive rock that are
perhaps non musical but imply more a life style or ideology at play.

One of them that's always pricked my curiosity is Paganism i.e. themes
pertaining to early earth based religions, mystery cults, arcane rites,
cultural myths being portrayed through song and the like. It seems to pop
up in countless references via so many bands I adore and have repeatedly
returned to for a whisp of that mysterious, almost primal interpretation of
symbols and forces and the like. Okay, I know your thinking: bring out
the midget stonhenge right? Hahaha well ultimately, I'm wondering, are
there any others out there that have any theories on why this energy
seems to permeate alot of the narrative themes and art associated with
prog music.

Question two is just for initiates: are there any among you who would go
so far as to count yourself as a Pagan, or even a more expansive
pantheistic view of divinity that perhaps monotheistic traditions of the
day often frown upon? I'm not just talking Dungeons & Dragons here
people.

I'm just curious as to how many proggies actually 'feel' that essence that
so many of the musicians tend to or if it all comes across as camp/
novelty to you?
Pre-advanced apologies to any die-hard Neal Morse fans who will
indubitably have this site fed through the digibless online sanctifying
server!

10 days travel by foot;
I Wait neath the skin

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Hierophant View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2006 at 02:08
How Danny Carey (Tool) sets up his drums...


"Danny then set up his drums into proportions utilizing the circle and square of the New Jerusalem and uttered a short prayer relating to the principles of the ace of swords from the book of Thoth. He then performed a ritual utilizing his new found knowledge of the unicursal hexagram to generate a pattern of movement in space relating to Fuller's vector equilibrium model. The resulting rhythm and gateway summoned a daemon he has contained within "the Lodge" that has been delivering short parables similar to passages within the Book of Lies. Danny recommends as a device of protection and containment a thorough study and utilization of the underlying geometry of the Temple of Solomon for anyone purchasing their next record."



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2006 at 02:18
Originally posted by Hierophant Hierophant wrote:

How Danny Carey (Tool) sets up his drums...


"Danny then set up his drums into proportions utilizing the circle
and square of the New Jerusalem and uttered a short prayer relating to
the principles of the ace of swords from the book of Thoth. He then
performed a ritual utilizing his new found knowledge of the unicursal
hexagram to generate a pattern of movement in space relating to
Fuller's vector equilibrium model. The resulting rhythm and gateway
summoned a daemon he has contained within "the Lodge" that has been
delivering short parables similar to passages within the Book of Lies.
Danny recommends as a device of protection and containment a thorough
study and utilization of the underlying geometry of the Temple of
Solomon for anyone purchasing their next record."






Hahahaha, I had a feeling the tone of this might take a turn for the
absurd. Not that it offputs me, there's obviously a lot to laugh at in how
seriously some of these metaphysical madmen take themselves. Still
though, how do YOU feel about this business? Frankly, I'm amazed by
mankind's mythic past.

10 days travel by foot;
I Wait neath the skin

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Paco Fox View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2006 at 03:17

I can't consider my self a paganist, but, when talking about religion, many have told me my personal vision may be close to some pagan beliefs, mixed up with a certain thought that is common to most religions: 'let's be nice with one another for a change'.

In the prog field, there's a very pagan oriented album I moderatly like called 'Triple Aspect' by a rare english band called 'Legend' that pagan interested proggers may like.

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2006 at 03:20
Originally posted by dojonane dojonane wrote:

My querry is one of a more pluralistic (read: non musical) nature so I
won't feel all dejected like if no one takes interest, but I thought, what the
hey, there are other themes that re-appear in progressive rock that are
perhaps non musical but imply more a life style or ideology at play.

One of them that's always pricked my curiosity is Paganism i.e. themes
pertaining to early earth based religions, mystery cults, arcane rites,
cultural myths being portrayed through song and the like. It seems to pop
up in countless references via so many bands I adore and have repeatedly
returned to for a whisp of that mysterious, almost primal interpretation of
symbols and forces and the like. Okay, I know your thinking: bring out
the midget stonhenge right? Hahaha well ultimately, I'm wondering, are
there any others out there that have any theories on why this energy
seems to permeate alot of the narrative themes and art associated with
prog music.

Question two is just for initiates: are there any among you who would go
so far as to count yourself as a Pagan, or even a more expansive
pantheistic view of divinity that perhaps monotheistic traditions of the
day often frown upon? I'm not just talking Dungeons & Dragons here
people.

I'm just curious as to how many proggies actually 'feel' that essence that
so many of the musicians tend to or if it all comes across as camp/
novelty to you?
Pre-advanced apologies to any die-hard Neal Morse fans who will
indubitably have this site fed through the digibless online sanctifying
server!

Jean and I are High Priestesses of a pagan religion that worships Gaia, the ancient Greek Goddess of the Earth.


BaldJean and I; I am the one in blue.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2006 at 03:38

We shall see how (and if) this thread develops.

If it becomes a mainly discussion about paganism, it will be relocated to the "Discussions not related to music" section.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2006 at 03:48
Originally posted by Easy Livin Easy Livin wrote:

We shall see how (and if) this thread develops.

If it becomes a mainly discussion about paganism, it will be relocated to the "Discussions not related to music" section.


Jean and I are High Priestesses of a pagan religion that worships Gaia, the ancient Greek Goddess of the Earth. And we are prog musicians. There, is that better?


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2006 at 03:59
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2006 at 04:27
"Xitintoday" by Nik Turner's Sphynx is a record about the Gods of the ancient Egyptians, based on the Egyptian "Book of the Dead". In fact Nik Turner recorded two albums on this theme, with exactly the same lyrics, but with different musicans, one in 1978 with the help of musicians from Gong and Hawkwind and a few others. The 90s album was recorded together with guitarist Helios Creed. The 1978 album is the better one, in my opinion, but it only came out on vinyl. Virgin, who own the rights to the Charisma label, should definitely reissue that album on CD; our vinyl version is almost worn out meanwhile.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2006 at 05:37
Rick Wakeman's "No Earthly Connection" sounds very pagan to me; although Rick himself is a Christian. The music comes across as very earthy and elemental, especially the first half of "Music Reincarnate".
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2006 at 07:22
There is of course that obvious connection with rock concerts (and rock gods) and the ecstatic, worshipping orgies of ancient greek god Dionysos (or Roman equivalent Bacchus). Rock music seen as an freedomseeking, uncontrollable and dangerous force. An enemy of organised religion and modern society.

Knowing that modern life is destroying life on Earth, also makes it healthy to look for inspiration in earth based religions. Artists are outsiders and its natural for them (hm...us) to question our way of life. And to look for alternatives. Writing about pagan life or paginist beliefs is ultimately asking existensial questions. Like all great art.  

Robin Hardy's disturbing cult film 'The Wicker Man' from '73, shows the meeting of modern life and religion portrayed as a deeply christian policeman, while investegating the disseappering of a girl in a paganist society. Its a film that actually fits very nicely along with a lot of british progressive rock albums of the same era. And it has a great folk soundtrack. I'm sure most of you have seen it. 

That film and Comus even more disturbing album and masterpiece 'First Utterance' '71 feels closely related. 

I wouldn't count myself as Pagan or anything else. But if any, organised religions are the ones that deserves to be ridiculed and frowned upon.



   


Over land and under ashes
In the sunlight, see - it flashes
Find a fly and eat his eye
But don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
Don't believe in me
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2006 at 08:15

IMO bands tend to write about these pagan myths and legends because there far more interesting than the current monotheistic religions.

As for myself I'm an atheist.

Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2006 at 17:32
Originally posted by Rocktopus Rocktopus wrote:


Robin Hardy's disturbing cult film 'The Wicker Man' from '73, shows the
meeting of modern life and religion portrayed as a deeply christian
policeman, while investegating the disseappering of a girl in a
paganist society. Its a film that actually fits very nicely along with
a lot of british progressive rock albums of the same era. And it has a
great folk soundtrack. I'm sure most of you have seen it. 

No sir, can't say as I have seen it. It sounds absolutely fascinating though.
Is it available online anywhere? Ive seen very few films that explore the
theme of a clash between the early insurgency of Christianity and
Paganism (without counting the obvious, yet still incredibly valuable
mythic accounts such as 'Excalibur' and the new 'Beowulf & Grendel')

Speaking of Beowulf & Grendel, not sure how many of you Marillionites
are reading this but did you notice the main theme from the film follows
the same chord progression as appears on the supposed magnum epic
'Grendel' during the verses. The film even takes on an empathetic
perspective revealing the inner workings and humility of the beast, which
is also apparently the angle Fish had written the song from (i.e. not
portraying Grendel as a mere blood thirsty behemoth but as a kind of
noble savage taking back what was taken in the first!) The song is
convincing at times but sadly (as with much of early Marillion) recycles
the same themes and ideas too often to stay truly dynamic for 18
minutes. I still love it somehow though, regardless of its avoiding the
classic status.

And one more thing, Rocktopus, our minds are bred from the same stuff!
I'm so pleased to find someone who responds positively to my own weird
muse, consistently. I checked out your paintings, absolutely inspiring,
indellible technique and such subtly bizarre subjects. Are you a fan of
Max Ernst? (my personal god, in the pagan sense )

10 days travel by foot;
I Wait neath the skin

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2006 at 17:58
Originally posted by BaldFriede BaldFriede wrote:


Jean and I are High Priestesses of a pagan religion that worships Gaia, the ancient Greek Goddess of the Earth.


Mago de Oz's album Gaia talks about a very touching (and a controversy surrounding it) story concerning the new world, the aztecs, executions and Gaia itself.

I must say that I respect people with your belief. It has so many good cualities and how you look at life and the world is a very interesting sight to see.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2006 at 22:34
I usually tell people I'm a pagan and proud of it. Actually I am a wannabe pagan. If I could actually belive in supernatural beings it would have to be something involving Mother Earth. Pretty much though, to be more accurate, I am an existentialist. Somehow though I have a very deep spiritual affinity for the earth, maybe becuase I was born here and live here.

 I'll go for the obvious mention since no one else has. Jon Anderson solo albums.

 I really dont see all that much paganism in progressive music. In fact if you discount classical mythology references and obscure music I'd  be hard pressed to site 5 instances of it. Unless of course you were speaking to the mood of the music rather than the lyrics. That would be open to such varied interpretation though. I've done some small research on ancient musics especialy those related to earth based beliefs and I haven't seen any evidence of ancient musical ideas being used in prog. I'm no professor though so im not saying its absolutly not there...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 24 2006 at 22:45

Originally posted by ElwoodHerring ElwoodHerring wrote:

Rick Wakeman's "No Earthly Connection" sounds very pagan to me; although Rick himself is a Christian. The music comes across as very earthy and elemental, especially the first half of "Music Reincarnate".

No, by the contrary, No Earthly Connection's cheesy lyrics are an attempt of Rick to write in Jon Anderson's style, he creates a parallel history of how man developed and lost his musical soul.

But his references to The Maker are obviously a reference to God and of course being mentioned one maker we must assume it's monotheist album.

Iván

            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 00:36
Originally posted by Flyingsod Flyingsod wrote:

I usually tell people I'm a pagan and proud of it.
Actually I am a wannabe pagan. If I could actually belive in supernatural
beings it would have to be something involving Mother Earth. Pretty much
though, to be more accurate, I am an existentialist. Somehow though I
have a very deep spiritual affinity for the earth, maybe becuase I was born
here and live here. I'll go for the obvious mention since no one else has.
Jon Anderson solo albums. I really dont see all that much paganism in
progressive music. In fact if you discount classical mythology references
and obscure music I'd  be hard pressed to site 5 instances of it. Unless of
course you were speaking to the mood of the music rather than the lyrics.
That would be open to such varied interpretation though. I've done some
small research on ancient musics especialy those related to earth based
beliefs and I haven't seen any evidence of ancient musical ideas being
used in prog. I'm no professor though so im not saying its absolutly not
there...

Not so much melodic themes or ethnic folk traditions being crystallized in
prog itself...more so the dynamism of spirit taking on different
incarnations, songs about anthropomorphic qualities for natural forces,
personified elements (i.e. I talk to the Wind), metaphysical leanings like
pythagoras' concept of the music of the spheres in ascribing melodies to
the sun and the like. More primordial and elemental in terms of
symbology then distinct narratives relating to Ra of Baphomet or the like,
although I'm sure those exist as well...the lyrical themes found in the
band Citizen Cain's work often seem to invoke specific entities and call
upon a friction between Christianity and something more ancient, taking
its toll on the rationalization of belief into such neat little orders...

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I Wait neath the skin

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 01:30

Originally posted by dojonane dojonane wrote:

Not so much melodic themes or ethnic folk traditions being crystallized in
prog itself...more so the dynamism of spirit taking on different
incarnations, songs about anthropomorphic qualities for natural forces,
personified elements (i.e. I talk to the Wind), metaphysical leanings like
pythagoras' concept of the music of the spheres in ascribing melodies to
the sun and the like. More primordial and elemental in terms of
symbology then distinct narratives relating to Ra of Baphomet or the like,
although I'm sure those exist as well...the lyrical themes found in the
band Citizen Cain's work often seem to invoke specific entities and call
upon a friction between Christianity and something more ancient, taking
its toll on the rationalization of belief into such neat little orders...

You make a point, if there is a gene where I find more Pagan influences is in Medieval Celtic influenced Prog'.

Celtic culture had a very strong religion that even managed to survive Catholicism because they blended their traditions with Christian celebrations.

Somethuing similar to what was done in Perú by the natives. The Spanish boasted around the world that in Perú the Corpus Christy was celebrated as in no other place in the world, but the truth was that our natives were celebrating the Inti Raymi (The Feast of Inti or the Sun) that is precisely in June.

So if you can foind Pagan influences even blended with canonic music is in Folk or more precisely ethnic Prog, but not because the musicians are Pagans, but because of this influence incorporated in Prog.

Iván

            
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 02:31

The energy created from music is a purlely spiritualistic experience. How music effects you, changes your mood and demeanor, lifts you to "higher planes". That IS "spirit". Doesn't matter what your taste is, if music is your saviour, you will be uplifted. Demons and wizards are a cool concept for  a younger audience, that is true, but romantisism and poetic lyrics will always touch the sensitive spiritual side of our nature. The soul is a passionate flame.

What does this have to do with progressive rock? Well, for starters prog offers far more than the top fourty, boy meets girl (boy) or look at my new car(dis me and and kill your ass) stupidity of current "music", and deals more with the intellectual and higher thoughts of lyrical and musical sense and intelligence. In short, prog aims for a higher ground.

People who listen to progressive rock are well aware of their taste in music and are extremley proud of it. So are the listeners of all other genres like classical, jazz etc. They find great joy in their music and revell in every cord and lyric played. Thats not to discount the top fourtyers and current music fans. Music is music, it hits us in different ways of importance. What they all do have in common is that- it moves us! Music touches our very soul, our "primal beast", makes us remember that WE are animals on this globe as all the rest. When push comes to shove, when the drum beats, and the voices cry, we ALL respond. I guess thats where paganism comes in. The primal- the true.

We all feed off the earth, and we all return. Words no one can refute. The ritual of life is a constant with us, no matter how we see our Gods. One thing is for certain, the music will always PLAY ON.

Here I'm shadowed by a dragon fig tree's fan
ringed by ants and musing over man.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 25 2006 at 02:51
Originally posted by Witchwoodhermit Witchwoodhermit wrote:

The energy created
from music is a purlely spiritualistic experience. How music effects you,
changes your mood and demeanor, lifts you to "higher planes". That
IS "spirit". Doesn't matter what your taste is, if music is your saviour, you
will be uplifted. Demons and wizards are a cool concept for  a

younger audience, that is true, but romantisism and
poetic lyrics will always touch the sensitive spiritual side of our nature.
The soul is a passionate flame.


What does this have to do with progressive rock?
Well, for starters prog offers far more than the top fourty, boy meets girl
(boy) or look at my new car(dis me and and kill your ass) stupidity of
current "music", and deals more with the intellectual and higher thoughts
of lyrical and musical sense and intelligence. In short, prog aims for a
higher ground.


People who listen to progressive rock are well aware
of their taste in music and are extremley proud of it. So are the listeners
of all other genres like classical, jazz etc. They find great joy in their
music and revell in every cord and lyric played. Thats not to discount the
top fourtyers and current music fans. Music is music, it hits us in different
ways of importance. What they all do have in common is that- it moves
us! Music touches our very soul, our "primal beast", makes us remember
that WE are animals on this globe as all the rest. When push comes to
shove, when the drum beats, and the voices cry, we ALL respond. I guess
thats where paganism comes in. The primal- the true.


We all feed off the earth, and we all return. Words
no one can refute. The ritual of life is a constant with us, no matter how
we see our Gods. One thing is for certain, the music will always PLAY ON.



Breath-takingly put. Sometimes these forums can become so
begrudgingly left brain in their purely rational, competitive, quantifying
scope (as if percentages amount to more than poems). It nourishes the
ladder of my sky-bound narrative to hear another
phrase in the terms of a mystic why and from whence the mystery of what
brings us here flows. It recalls in me two allusions:
A brief poem called 'Nature' which is the prelude to a collection of
Emerson's writings:

"A subtle chain of countless rings
The next unto the farthest brings
The eye sees omens where it goes
And reads all languages; the rose
And striving to be a ma, the worm
mounts through all the spires of form."

the other is lulled from a Huxley poem entitled 'Philosopher's Song"
"But oh the sound of simian mirth,
Mind issued from the monkey's womb
Is still umbilical to earth
Earth it's home and earth it's tomb"



Edited by dojonane

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