I can't consider my self a paganist, but, when talking about religion, many have told me my personal vision may be close to some pagan beliefs, mixed up with a certain thought that is common to most religions: 'let's be nice with one another for a change'.

In the prog field, there's a very pagan oriented album I moderatly like called 'Triple Aspect' by a rare english band called 'Legend' that pagan interested proggers may like.

We shall see how (and if) this thread develops.

If it becomes a mainly discussion about paganism, it will be relocated to the "Discussions not related to music" section.

IMO bands tend to write about these pagan myths and legends because there far more interesting than the current monotheistic religions.

As for myself I'm an atheist.

ElwoodHerring wrote: Rick Wakeman's "No Earthly Connection" sounds very pagan to me; although Rick himself is a Christian. The music comes across as very earthy and elemental, especially the first half of "Music Reincarnate".

No, by the contrary, No Earthly Connection's cheesy lyrics are an attempt of Rick to write in Jon Anderson's style, he creates a parallel history of how man developed and lost his musical soul.

But his references to The Maker are obviously a reference to God and of course being mentioned one maker we must assume it's monotheist album.

Iván

dojonane wrote: Not so much melodic themes or ethnic folk traditions being crystallized in prog itself...more so the dynamism of spirit taking on different incarnations, songs about anthropomorphic qualities for natural forces, personified elements (i.e. I talk to the Wind), metaphysical leanings like pythagoras' concept of the music of the spheres in ascribing melodies to the sun and the like. More primordial and elemental in terms of symbology then distinct narratives relating to Ra of Baphomet or the like, although I'm sure those exist as well...the lyrical themes found in the band Citizen Cain's work often seem to invoke specific entities and call upon a friction between Christianity and something more ancient, taking its toll on the rationalization of belief into such neat little orders...

You make a point, if there is a gene where I find more Pagan influences is in Medieval Celtic influenced Prog'.

Celtic culture had a very strong religion that even managed to survive Catholicism because they blended their traditions with Christian celebrations.

Somethuing similar to what was done in Perú by the natives. The Spanish boasted around the world that in Perú the Corpus Christy was celebrated as in no other place in the world, but the truth was that our natives were celebrating the Inti Raymi (The Feast of Inti or the Sun) that is precisely in June.

So if you can foind Pagan influences even blended with canonic music is in Folk or more precisely ethnic Prog, but not because the musicians are Pagans, but because of this influence incorporated in Prog.

Iván

The energy created from music is a purlely spiritualistic experience. How music effects you, changes your mood and demeanor, lifts you to "higher planes". That IS "spirit". Doesn't matter what your taste is, if music is your saviour, you will be uplifted. Demons and wizards are a cool concept for  a younger audience, that is true, but romantisism and poetic lyrics will always touch the sensitive spiritual side of our nature. The soul is a passionate flame.

What does this have to do with progressive rock? Well, for starters prog offers far more than the top fourty, boy meets girl (boy) or look at my new car(dis me and and kill your ass) stupidity of current "music", and deals more with the intellectual and higher thoughts of lyrical and musical sense and intelligence. In short, prog aims for a higher ground.

People who listen to progressive rock are well aware of their taste in music and are extremley proud of it. So are the listeners of all other genres like classical, jazz etc. They find great joy in their music and revell in every cord and lyric played. Thats not to discount the top fourtyers and current music fans. Music is music, it hits us in different ways of importance. What they all do have in common is that- it moves us! Music touches our very soul, our "primal beast", makes us remember that WE are animals on this globe as all the rest. When push comes to shove, when the drum beats, and the voices cry, we ALL respond. I guess thats where paganism comes in. The primal- the true.

We all feed off the earth, and we all return. Words no one can refute. The ritual of life is a constant with us, no matter how we see our Gods. One thing is for certain, the music will always PLAY ON.

Beautiful words, thank you, I was about to break out my T.S Eliot, but the lateness of the evening leaves me in a reticent state.You're correct with you're left brain observations of this site. More facts than feelings. Isn't that what music is about?

Keep your metaphysics warm

OK, Eliot got in there

I think it's a way of personal development that can touch many different religions, cultures and philosophies...

IMO the concept is to know ourselves using every way possible, so oriental religions, metaphysics, mysticism are all in the same way to find an answer...

..of course an eclectic person that leads his interests in so many different ways for a strictly personal development could be considered "pagan" in a certain way...

..do you agree?

Strickly speaking anybody who isn't Christian is pagan. According to the church that rules. To be pagan is to have your own belief, whether structured or not. It is a personal value, on life and beyond. I've gone through many changes in philosophy over the years, one thing that is certain, we all believe in some creative force. Be it destructive or not, the need for "a God" is omni present to our development as a human race.

All creations are reflections of their creators.

Witchwoodhermit wrote: Strickly speaking anybody who isn't Christian is pagan. According to the church that rules. To be pagan is to have your own belief, whether structured or not. It is a personal value, on life and beyond. I've gone through many changes in philosophy over the years, one thing that is certain, we all believe in some creative force. Be it destructive or not, the need for "a God" is omni present to our development as a human race. All creations are reflections of their creators.

Not exact, it depeds in the era (For Medieval Church any non Catholic was Pagan, but this has changed) and the country, for the Romans (Politeists) the Germanic cultures were Pagans because they didn't shared their Religion.

For the Jewish, the term gentile is almost an equivalent or Pagan, those who don't share their Religion. The Moslems claim that anybody who doesn't believe in the Coran is a Pagan.

I don't know too much about most Christian Religions (There are so many and the differences between them are so subtle in most cases), but at least Catholic Church proclaim that any church who believe in any God deserve respect and veneration, the term Pagan in our contextis more related to different forms of Stanism and non traditional cults.

The Dalai Lama, Ghandi,  a lot of Moslem Priests, Jewish Religious leaders, etc have been recieved in the Vatican with great respect, so your first phrase is not accurate.

Iván

Well, I'm not splitting hairs on the churchs definition of Pagan. However, I need to say that the one big mistake to make, when talking about Paganism is too demonize it. Its not about Satanism (as I believe you were trying to say?) or cults. Pagan religions are primarilly earth based and polythesist. A more "primal" view of the world about us and less dogmatic. The freedom to dance around the circle stones.

Witchwoodhermit wrote: Well, I'm not splitting hairs on the churchs definition of Pagan. However, I need to say that the one big mistake to make, when talking about Paganism is too demonize it. Its not about Satanism (as I believe you were trying to say?) or cults. Pagan religions are primarilly earth based and polythesist. A more "primal" view of the world about us and less dogmatic. The freedom to dance around the circle stones.

Well,I know  it's a mistake, even when it's the most common perception of Paganism today, but in no way "anybody who isn't Christian is pagan", except for some fundamentalists.

Iván

Witchwoodhermit wrote: Ivan, I think you misunderstood my statement. I was making a generalization about the Christian churchs attitude towards non-Christians. I,m glad that the church-Catholic in particular- have broadened their attitudes towards other faiths. Lets not fight over this my friend.

Will never fight about an issue as this, I am also aware of this tendency of SOME Fundamentalist groups, but not only Christians, the problem has spread all over the worls, everybody seems to believe their faith is the only truth and that the rest of Religions are just a  Pagans.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Witchwoodhermit wrote: Ivan, I think you misunderstood my statement. I was making a generalization about the Christian churchs attitude towards non-Christians. I,m glad that the church-Catholic in particular- have broadened their attitudes towards other faiths. Lets not fight over this my friend. Will never fight about an issue as this, I am also aware of this tendency of SOME Fundamentalist groups, but not only Christians, the problem has spread all over the worls, everybody seems to believe their faith is the only truth and that the rest of Religions are just a  Pagans. Iván

But dedicating yourself to a philosophy generaly means that you're fairly certain that it's "the sh*t", and that others are not quite as much "the sh*t". Many here often write as though the only true form of music is prog(Whatever the Hell that is), which is a paralell to faith, in that both faith and music base themselves on intuition rather than some pseudo-objective sh*t.

Zweck wrote: But dedicating yourself to a philosophy generaly means that you're fairly certain that it's "the sh*t", and that others are not quite as much "the sh*t". Many here often write as though the only true form of music is prog(Whatever the Hell that is), which is a paralell to faith, in that both faith and music base themselves on intuition rather than some pseudo-objective sh*t.

I hoinestly doubt many people here believe Prog' is the only true form of music, most of us listen, like and talk about different genres of music..

Does some people here believe  Prog  is the best musical expression for our taste?

Probably yes, we are here stealing time from our work, studies  and families because we love Progressive Rock, so what's the problem about this?

Iván

Drew wrote:

Does the art cover designer has an obsession with Stargate, or does Pagan Mind makes the music for the show? Because:

Seems obvious.

Iván

ivan_2068 wrote: Zweck wrote: But dedicating yourself to a philosophy generaly means that you're fairly certain that it's "the sh*t", and that others are not quite as much "the sh*t". Many here often write as though the only true form of music is prog(Whatever the Hell that is), which is a paralell to faith, in that both faith and music base themselves on intuition rather than some pseudo-objective sh*t. I hoinestly doubt many people here believe Prog' is the only true form of music, most of us listen, like and talk about different genres of music.. Does some people here believe  Prog  is the best musical expression for our taste? Probably yes, we are here stealing time from our work, studies  and families because we love Progressive Rock, so what's the problem about this? Iván

Somehow I don't feel that the one who questioned the artistic qualities of Madvillian on grounds of his use of samples has so much to say. And before you go "well that was one incident, I still listen to other stuff than prog, yaddayaddayadda" you must know this: I generalized. Though it often dilutes the expression slightly it's very functional for getting a point across, without going through all the degrees of something, which would make most people abstain from reading the post.

Zweck wrote: Somehow I don't feel that the one who questioned the artistic qualities of Madvillian on grounds of his use of samples has so much to say. And before you go "well that was one incident, I still listen to other stuff than prog, yaddayaddayadda" you must know this: I generalized. Though it often dilutes the expression slightly it's very functional for getting a point across, without going through all the degrees of something, which would make most people abstain from reading the post.

I won't start a discussion again but I will say it once and for all.

The fact that I dislike and find no merit in two determined pseudo musical genres, doesn't mean I believe Prog is the only valid form of music, there are hundreed of genres that have enough value.

The fact that he uses samples is not the main reason why I don't believe his albums are musically valid, I don't believe in Rap or Hip Hop as a valid form of MUSIC, I believe is repetitive, lack of imagination and musical quality, and I have to apologize with nobody about my opinions, as far as I know this is a free opinion forum.

If you like it ok with you, and if you don't, honestly I can't care less.

But remember, you are in a PROGRESSIVE ROCK FORUM and you must accept that HERE the majority of people doesn't like Rap and Hip Hop and some like me don't believe it's a valid form of music, and this is what people believe here about Rap:

Prog Polls
Progressive Rock Forum : Prog Polls

Topic: What’s your opínion about Rap?

http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2947&PN=0&TPN=1&RN=1#reply"> http://www.progarchives.com/forum/post_message_form.asp?FID=42"> http://www.progarchives.com/forum/poll_create_form.asp?FID=42">

Poll Question: What’s your opinion about Rap Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics Brilliant 4 [12.90%] Good 4 [12.90%] Mediocre 2 [6.45%] Bad 1 [3.23%] Crap 20 [64.52%]

If you want to start a Rap or Hip Hop thread, you can use the Non Prog Musical lounge which is the right place and I promnisse I won't even loose my time reading it, but I (As the majority) come to  Prog Archives to discuss Progressive Rock in the Progressive Rock Lounge not Rap or Hip Hop.

I give this argument as ended, because seems that Hip Hoppers and Rappers are trying to use this forum as a vehicle to promote their favorite style of music, and I won't fall in the game again.

Iván

@ Flyingsod, yes in the past the Christian church has been to aggresive (especially in the middle ages) but nowadays they are far more tolerant. I think that fundamentalist protestants give all Christians a bad name. Catholicism is not a bad religion if its teachings are examend objectively. And nowadays is rather tolerant, in the religion class at my catholic school the teachers even say that the Catholic church is not the only way one can reach Heaven. Also the late Pope John Paul II met with muslim leaders, Jewish leaders, protestant leaders and Eastern Orthodox leaders.

walrus333 wrote: @ Flyingsod, yes in the past the Christian church has been to aggresive (especially in the middle ages) but nowadays they are far more tolerant. I think that fundamentalist protestants give all Christians a bad name. Catholicism is not a bad religion if its teachings are examend objectively. And nowadays is rather tolerant, in the religion class at my catholic school the teachers even say that the Catholic church is not the only way one can reach Heaven. Also the late Pope John Paul II met with muslim leaders, Jewish leaders, protestant leaders and Eastern Orthodox leaders.

Good point, specially if you add the efforts to reunite the Catholic. Orthodox, Lutheran aand Anglican Rekligionss in only one, we can notice some things are changing.}

But sadly there's a lot of new Fundamentalist groups that not only proclaim the only truth in spiritual matters, but the superiority of certain nations and ethnic groups, this last issue is frightening.

Iván

yup true Ivan.

its scary that churchs like westboro baptist (  http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html - http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html  ) exist and are not a joke.

dojonane wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: I give this argument as ended, because seems that Hip Hoppers and Rappers are trying to use this forum as a vehicle to promote their favorite style of music, and I won't fall in the game again. Iván Is this some kind of curse? Has the wrathful divine patriarch of the old testament rendered this plague down upon me for starting a thread that questions the glory of 'the false gods.' Any benign and well meaning thread I fall into and the moldy string cheese food fight begins 'around me' while I'm trying to base my ideals in something transcendent and timeless... Ughhhh, someone give me an epidural No one is trying to 'take over' this forum with talk about hip hop. The thread began as an qualifying attack on an entire movement and those who responded werent hip-hoppers with a manifest destiny shtick, they were proggies who happen to also find beauty in even the most allegedly (but not actually) unproggy genre. Lets get back to the meadow on this one, please?

Please don't buy problems that aren't yours, I was provoked with a post totally unrealted with this thread, I didn't even mentioned any Rap or Hip Hop band until Zweck started with the attack twice, the first time I gnored him and answered as if I hadn't noticed his real intentions, :

Zweck Senior Member Joined: November 20 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 145 Posted: March 26 2006 at 04:28 | IP Logged http://www.progarchives.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=1908440&TPN=3"> ivan_2068 wrote: Witchwoodhermit wrote: Ivan, I think you misunderstood my statement. I was making a generalization about the Christian churchs attitude towards non-Christians. I,m glad that the church-Catholic in particular- have broadened their attitudes towards other faiths. Lets not fight over this my friend. Will never fight about an issue as this, I am also aware of this tendency of SOME Fundamentalist groups, but not only Christians, the problem has spread all over the worls, everybody seems to believe their faith is the only truth and that the rest of Religions are just a  Pagans. Iván But dedicating yourself to a philosophy generaly means that you're fairly certain that it's "the sh*t", and that others are not quite as much "the sh*t". Many here often write as though the only true form of music is prog(Whatever the Hell that is), which is a paralell to faith, in that both faith and music base themselves on intuition rather than some pseudo-objective sh*t.

but his second attack was so obvious that I was forced to answer.

Zweck Senior Member Joined: November 20 2005 Online Status: Offline Posts: 145 Posted: March 26 2006 at 14:54 | IP Logged http://www.progarchives.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=1908776&TPN=3"> ivan_2068 wrote: Zweck wrote: But dedicating yourself to a philosophy generaly means that you're fairly certain that it's "the sh*t", and that others are not quite as much "the sh*t". Many here often write as though the only true form of music is prog(Whatever the Hell that is), which is a paralell to faith, in that both faith and music base themselves on intuition rather than some pseudo-objective sh*t. I hoinestly doubt many people here believe Prog' is the only true form of music, most of us listen, like and talk about different genres of music.. Does some people here believe  Prog  is the best musical expression for our taste? Probably yes, we are here stealing time from our work, studies  and families because we love Progressive Rock, so what's the problem about this? Iván Somehow I don't feel that the one who questioned the artistic qualities of Madvillian on grounds of his use of samples has so much to say. And before you go "well that was one incident, I still listen to other stuff than prog, yaddayaddayadda" you must know this: I generalized. Though it often dilutes the expression slightly it's very functional for getting a point across, without going through all the degrees of something, which would make most people abstain from reading the post.

Yes, your threads are full of attacks, but not because of me

If I'm harrased I will respond with MY truth, I don't like Rap or Hip Hop, I don't consider them valid music genres, that's how I feel and I won't hide it, as people don't hide their dislike for ELP, Yes or Genesis.

It was easy for you to quote the last parragraph of my reply to Zweck taking it out of the contest, it was also easy for you to ignore his repeated attacks, if you are going to take a position, then at least quote things complete.

My reply was much longer, but when you reduce it to a phrase or a parragraph you're placing things out of context:

ivan_2068 Special Collaborator Iván Melgar Morey-Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Online Status: Online Posts: 3960 Posted: March 26 2006 at 15:09 | IP Logged http://www.progarchives.com/forum/edit_post.asp?M=Q&PID=1908798&TPN=3"> Zweck wrote: Somehow I don't feel that the one who questioned the artistic qualities of Madvillian on grounds of his use of samples has so much to say. And before you go "well that was one incident, I still listen to other stuff than prog, yaddayaddayadda" you must know this: I generalized. Though it often dilutes the expression slightly it's very functional for getting a point across, without going through all the degrees of something, which would make most people abstain from reading the post. I won't start a discussion again but I will say it once and for all. The fact that I dislike and find no merit in two determined pseudo musical genres, doesn't mean I believe Prog is the only valid form of music, there are hundreed of genres that have enough value. The fact that he uses samples is not the main reason why I don't believe his albums are musically valid, I don't believe in Rap or Hip Hop as a valid form of MUSIC, I believe is repetitive, lack of imagination and musical quality, and I have to apologize with nobody about my opinions, as far as I know this is a free opinion forum. If you like it ok with you, and if you don't, honestly I can't care less. But remember, you are in a PROGRESSIVE ROCK FORUM and you must accept that HERE the majority of people doesn't like Rap and Hip Hop and some like me don't believe it's a valid form of music, and this is what people believe here about Rap: Prog Polls  Progressive Rock Forum : Prog Polls Topic: What’s your opínion about Rap? http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=2947&PN=0&TPN=1&RN=1#reply"> http://www.progarchives.com/forum/post_message_form.asp?FID=42"> http://www.progarchives.com/forum/poll_create_form.asp?FID=42"> < name=frmPoll =poll_cast_vote.asp method=post> Poll Question: What’s your opinion about Rap Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics Brilliant 4 [12.90%] Good 4 [12.90%] Mediocre 2 [6.45%] Bad 1 [3.23%] Crap 20 [64.52%] If you want to start a Rap or Hip Hop thread, you can use the Non Prog Musical lounge which is the right place and I promnisse I won't even loose my time reading it, but I (As the majority) come to  Prog Archives to discuss Progressive Rock in the Progressive Rock Lounge not Rap or Hip Hop. I give this argument as ended, because seems that Hip Hoppers and Rappers are trying to use this forum as a vehicle to promote their favorite style of music, and I won't fall in the game again. Iván

BTW: I believed we had cleared some issues privately, so don't believe my opinions are directed against you, I don't waste my day thinking in how to harm you, this comes from back before you even joined this forum when another group of members talked about the posibility of Prog/Hip Hop and Rap, which I find totally incompatible.

So if you have problems with people ruining your threads, please direct your replies towards those whoo start the problems.

Iván

Two albums came to my mind. Steve Hackett, Voyage of the Acolyte, which plays on themes of the Tarot. This theme was supposed to be the first album by The Enid but Tony Smith could not sell it to the label and Hackett needed a theme. Also Jethro Tull Songs from the Wood, which plays on several pagan themes, the Jack in the Green, Solstice Bells, and and the Celtic Beltane festival or May Day, in the remaster. Heavy Horses, Songs from the Wood II, also has a very rustic, earthy character. Though not overtly pagan, it still plays on the pagan context of the earlier album. I have not heard Roots to Branches, but it sound pretty pagan to me. Also moonchild from The Court is a very pagan idea.

PS in its most general term pagan pertains to Indian religions. Those that centered around Mother Kali would be especailly apropos here.The quest narratives of The Moody Blues and Yes could be seen as pagan in that regard.

dojonane wrote:   Genesis were already rife with pantheistic, anthropomorphic narrative from the Trespass days. 'White Mountain' (never heard many people mention this wonderful piece) describes a monarchic system of divine birth rite and forbidden observance amongst WOLVES! Astounding, charming...mmmm so deliciously imaginative

Now to a more pleasent theme, is obvious you're not here for a long time because White Mountain is always mentioned by members of this site, IMO is the most wonderful track from the already good Trespass.

I believe Peter said on one interview that he was inspired in Jack London's work, but I can't find a real connection. Others say that is a recreation of the myth of King Arthur, the golden crown was hidden as the magic sword never to be used again.

But I see it as an allegory of the decadence of Monarchy by divine right, to be replaced by power earned by own hand. One-Eye fights the usurper and wins, but instead of claiming the kingdom the hero hides the crown (never to leave the mountain) and returns as  One-Eye the hero (with laurels on his head) who resigns the crown to which he isn't entitled to dwell or live in peace with his tribe as a leader that won his right by stregth.

Interesting, but only God knows what they tried to say.

Iván

I'm a christain but a very liberal one at that. I'm very open to new ideas in philosophies like Metaphysics and such.

[/QUOTE]
Yes, that's always been my favorite Tull album lyrically speaking! It
features the only reference to my (flirtingly half seriously) patron deity,
Kernunnos, The Green Man in 'Jack in the Green.' Someone stated earlier
they felt paganism as an overt context for prog wasnt necesarily present
at the very beginning, but your point about crimson brings my mind back
to what was considered the first truly symphonic progressive album, in
'court' with references to witches and weird magicks abound!
Another beautiful, often little known reference to elemental entities
comes in 'Firth of Fifth' with 'undinal songs.' This being the adjective form
of Undines, the water elementals in German Mythology (see: Ondine on
wikipedia, the linky thing is all botched here for some reason).
For that matter, Genesis were already rife with pantheistic,
anthropomorphic narrative from the Trespass days. 'White
Mountain' (never heard many people mention this wonderful piece)
describes a monarchic system of divine birth rite and forbidden
observance amongst WOLVES! Astounding, charming...mmmm so
deliciously imaginative [/QUOTE]

Another Tull song is Cold Wind to Valhalla, which is overtly sexual and probably inspired by Zep's Immigrant Song. I was going to go down the Gabriel line but did not know where to start. Firth of Fifth is good place since its overt romanticism speaks with pagan tongue, though its central message is Christian; it also references Neptune. It is one of the earliest prog pieces to use an overt musical metaphor in the waterfall word painting of the piano solo. Ironically, Hunting Girl from Songs from the Wood is another with the gallop of the double bass drums.   I am one of those who really see Christianity as a pagan religion; I think someone mentioned that earlier; Gabriel often picks up on that.  In Supper's Ready, the pied piper takes his children into the earth to await the coming of the Lord.

A connection between Paganism and progressive rock? Lets see...

 Paganism is described as a polythesic and hedonistic philosophy and way of life. Excess in all, Gods, and the love of life and nature. Passions released and enjoyed. Taste of life in full colour. To touch the earth, body and soul, in full passion.

Progressive rock. Forward thinking, intellectually driven and considerably elitist. Complicated and self indulgent. The smoking room. A country club. The inner sanctum. The esoteric walls of higher thought. Creative juices squeazed and poured in decadent volumes. Junior long hairs (lovers of classical).

To revel in ones own excess's, to rake your intrinsic values and judgments in a pile and jump in, secure in the knowledge that you are right, and your talents will be noticed. Your followers will worship your judgement and hold you in high esteem. To them you shall be a God. And those who question your philosophical postion shall be smote down in a chorus of irrelevance.

Fire and passion. Excess and self indulgent love of creation and connection. To be part of the inner circle to feel and understand the Unseen.

Try this one which by the way just noticed I hadn't reviewed:

http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_CD.asp?cd_id=10226 - http://www.progarchives.com/Progressive_rock_discography_CD. asp?cd_id=10226

All Miranda Sex Garden and specially this album "Carnival of Souls" is full of Celtic Pagan images, and as Witchwood Hermit well mentioned of lust and excess.

Iván