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Topic ClosedIs the Middle East going to war?

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Eetu Pellonpaa View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2006 at 15:59

I'm just watching the news, and there have been more missiles being fired at Israel, one claimed to hit a hospital. It's understandable that this leads to a counter attack, but bombing the rooftops used for launching sites probably won't kill anything but the people living downstairs, as the guerrilas have surely already fled.

Couldn't these rockets be tried to be shot down from patrolling fighters or by anti-aircarft artillery before they reach their targets? Is there any estimations how much Hezbollah does have these rockets?
 
I feel sad for all of those who are and will be hurt. Ouch
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 17 2006 at 16:41
^ Estimates are that they have used about 10% of the their stockpile, in other words nothing.  They get around $250 million a year from Iran, that buys a lot of rockets.  Luckily, they haven't used any of their supposed Iranian Zelzal missiles, which can reach Tel Aviv.  If this happens, I have no doubt either Syria or Iran is in for some bombing, since Hizbullah clearly lacks the capability to build or buy missiles with 100km ranges on their own. 
 
Finding the launchign sites is exceedingly difficult, Eetu.  Arab guerillas have a tendency to build their military posts next to civilian targets.  (I.e. all those bomb factories in Gaza next to nursery schools and hospitals -- they feel it gives them some cover of safety.)
 
Clap Props to the Arabs, or at leats some of their govenrments; they've finally grown up and chosen stability over hatred and ideology:
 
Jpost.com -- worth a read. 
 
Quote
 
Arab world fed up with Hizbullah

With the exception of the Palestinians, the Arab world appears to be united in blaming Iran and Syria for the fighting in Lebanon. Until last week, Arab political analysts and government officials were reluctant to criticize Hizbullah in public. But now that Hizbullah Secretary-General Hassan Nasrallah and his top aides are in hiding, an anti-Hizbullah coalition is emerging not only in Lebanon, but in several other Arab countries as well.

The Palestinians and Hizbullah feel that their Arab brethren have once again turned their backs on them. On Monday, hundreds of Palestinians who marched in downtown Ramallah in support of Hizbullah chanted: "Hassan Nasrallah is our hero, the rest of the Arab leaders are cowards" and "O beloved Abu Hadi [Nasrallah's nickname], bomb, bomb Tel Aviv." The second battle cry is reminiscent of the famous slogan the Palestinians used during the first Gulf War: "O beloved Saddam, bomb, bomb Tel Aviv."

Hizbullah and their supporters were hoping that the massive Israeli military operation in Lebanon would trigger large-scale protests throughout the Arab world, creating instability and threatening to bring down some of the Arab regimes.

But the response on the Arab street has been so disappointing for Hizbullah that its leaders are now openly talking about an Arab "conspiracy" to liquidate the Shi'ite organization. The few Hizbullah supporters in Ramallah, the Gaza Strip and some Arab capitals have therefore been directing most of their criticism against the Arab presidents and monarchs, accusing them of serving the interests of the US and Israel.

The anti-Hizbullah coalition, which appears to be growing with every Israeli missile that drops on the heads of Hizbullah leaders and headquarters, is spearheaded by Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan. These three countries, together with many Arab commentators and political analysts, are convinced that the leaders of Teheran and Damascus are using Hizbullah to divert attention from Iran's nuclear program and Syria's involvement in the assassination of former Lebanese prime minister Rafik Hariri.

The Saudis were the first to openly criticize Hizbullah, paving the way for other Arab countries to follow suit. The message coming out of these countries is that the Arabs and Muslims can't afford to allow an irresponsible and adventurous organization like Hizbullah to drag the region to war. Government spokesmen and officials, as well as prominent Arab editors and commentators, have shown no sympathy for Hizbullah while appearing on pan-Arab TV networks like Al-Jazeera and Abu Dhabi.

The Saudi position, which surprised Hizbullah and its supporters, was outlined by an anonymous official, who said that the people should distinguish between legitimate resistance and dangerous adventurism by some parties without cooperation from their governments and the Arab states.

The Saudi stand reflected the position of all the Gulf countries, which are unhappy not only with Hizbullah, but with Hamas as well. The Gulf countries are of the opinion that Hizbullah and Hamas are acting on orders from Teheran and Damascus.

That's why most Arab governments have refrained from making efforts to resolve the current crisis. As one government official in the Gulf explained: "We cannot play the role of mediators upon the request of some parties that act without taking into consideration the consequences of their actions." Similar sentiments have been reflected in a series of articles that appeared in the Arab media over the past few days. Some of the articles appear as if they had been written by Israeli government spokesmen. Ironically, the fact that Hizbullah and Hamas are now on the defensive has encouraged many Arabs to come out against the two groups in public.

Wadi Batti, an Iraqi columnist, said the Arabs should realize that militias and gangsters will only worsen their conditions. "The Lebanese example confirms the fears of Arabs about the presence of armed militias that threaten our stability and security," he wrote.

"By initiating the confrontation with Israel, Hizbullah has made a mockery of the Lebanese government and leaders, who are now seen as pawns in the hands of Nasrallah. How long will the Arabs continue to fight on behalf of Iran?"

Echoing the mood among most of his Lebanese fellow Christians, Joseph Bishara said: "Hizbullah is trying to provoke Israel into war to divert attention from the mistakes made by the Syrian and Iranian regimes. Bashar Assad and Ali Khamenei are using Hizbullah to achieve their direct and indirect goals in the region. They used Hizbullah to ease the pressure exerted by the international community on Syria and Iran.

"How can we ask Israel to have mercy on the Lebanese while Hizbullah is betraying Lebanon day and night?"

Bishara, whose article appeared on the Saudi-owned Elaph Web site, went as far as describing Syria and Iran as the real enemies of Lebanon. Today, he added, "Lebanon is paying the price for the sins of its real enemies - Syria and Iran, which don't dare confront Israel militarily and diplomatically. The time has come to neutralize and disarm Hizbullah before it becomes an illegitimate state inside Lebanon. Hizbullah's weapons threaten Lebanon's stability before they threaten Israel."

Tarek Hamo, another prominent Arab commentator, mocked Nasrallah, drawing parallels between him and ousted Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein. "The statements of Hassan Nasrallah remind me of the statements made by Saddam Hussein on the eve of the US invasion of Iraq," he said. "Saddam, whose army generals fled their positions in Baghdad just before the invasion, also issued threats to destroy the Americans if they entered Baghdad. Nasrallah is now in hiding and his fate won't be better than that of Saddam, whose was hiding in a deep hole."

Writing in the influential pan-Arab London-based Asharq Al-Awsat newspaper, columnist Iyad Abu Shakra said that many Lebanese were surprised by the Hizbullah operation and the kidnapping of the two Israeli soldiers.

"They were especially shocked by the timing of the attack - at the beginning of the tourism season that was supposed to provide income for over two million Lebanese families at a time when Lebanon is suffering a $40 million deficit in its budget," he pointed out. "What's really amazing is that Hizbullah's supporters and officials have underestimated the damages, especially to the tourism sector, by claiming that the only ones who were going to benefit from the tourism season were those who love humous and women."

Trying to explain the Arab attitude, Palestinian political analyst Ashraf al-Ajrami noted that many Arab countries were afraid of Iran and did not want to see the Iranians spread their influence. "The Arab countries, particularly Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Jordan, believe that no party has the right to drag the entire region to a military confrontation with Israel," he wrote in the Ramallah-based Al-Ayyam daily.

"These countries believe that there is no room for mistakes and adventures. The Arabs are worried about Iran's plans in the region, especially with regards to Iraq and the development of nuclear weapons, and their attempts to influence events in Lebanon and Palestine. A large number of Arab countries, particularly in the Gulf, see Iran as a future adversary."



Edited by NetsNJFan - July 17 2006 at 18:03
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2006 at 07:12
Finding the launchign sites is exceedingly difficult, Eetu.  Arab guerillas have a tendency to build their military posts next to civilian targets.  (I.e. all those bomb factories in Gaza next to nursery schools and hospitals -- they feel it gives them some cover of safety.)
 
Err Nets...
 
Do you have any understanding how small Gaza actually is??? On top of this, consider just how many ppl actually live there, and consider that Israel has been pounding this tiny plot of land for quite a while now.  It is one of the most densely populated areas on this planet... Also, some have stated that palestine has been committing 'terror', yet Israel receives 6-8 billion US dollars in 'millitary aid' per year.  And its not as if they are not using it.  Where else are you going to put these 'bomb factories', assuming that your source is correct.
 
When some one bombs you, you do have a wish/desire to bomb them back... That has been Israels line for many years now, and gives them 'reason' to 'punish' the palestinian ppl.  Yet, this reasoning cannot be used by the Palestinians for their retaliations with far less sophisticated equipment in this tit-for tat conflict.  Why is that?  Whats fair for one is fair for all btw... Also, Israel have a rather wide practice of not allowing ambulances with palestinian casualties to receive medical aid, and they have hit quite a few hospitals themselves... That is after the bulldozing of entire civilian blocks on many occasions.  And I will repeat something else that I have said previously... Check out just how many civilians have died on both sides....Terror has been committed on both sides.
 
I thought that the Israli government would have gained enough sence that military might just does not help them get what they desire.  Apparently, the support for the Hamas-majority government has actually grown since the most recent attacks in Gaza (apparently triggered by the capture of a 19 yr old Israeli soldier). U c, the ppl who live there are simply used to such a lifestyle.
 
Dont get me wrong, I condemn the use of arms at any civilian territary, whether in Israel, Lebanon, Palestine, or else where.  And palestine/Hesballah/Lebanon et al, are just as bad (not worse, not better).  However, what really riles me about this topic so far is that many here seem to think that Israel is the 'Innocent victim'.
 
They are not.
 


Edited by edible_buddha - July 18 2006 at 07:19
I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 18 2006 at 09:03
This report from the Jerusalem post makes interesting reading. It seems Sen John McCain (Arizona) and former house speaker Newt Gingrich have a somewhat melodramtic perspective on the crisis.

    Jerusalem Post

The difference in international media reporting will always fascinate me.
    

Edited by Blacksword - July 18 2006 at 16:47
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2006 at 03:04
While Israel continues to push its dubious agenda of bombing ambulances and taring this country to pieces, the US and UK stand back and applaud. The rest of the world is not so accomodating of Israels 'right to defend itself'

Well, all is not lost. Diplomacy had to rear its ugly head eventually, and today Condoleeza Rice visits Israel for 'frank' discussions with Mr Olmert. What effect will her visit have? Is there seriously a hope for a ceasfire with Americas help, or is this visit nothing more than window dressing to create the impression that the Bush Whitehouse wants Israel to stop??

Here comes Condie....

Israel has rejected the idea of putting UN peacekeepers in a 'buffer zone' on the northern Israeli border, and favours a NATO force to police the area instead. Is this a good idea or just a back door means of positioning western forces for when Iran and Syria join in the fun??
    

Edited by Blacksword - July 25 2006 at 03:06
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2006 at 03:34
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

While Israel continues to push its dubious agenda of bombing ambulances and taring this country to pieces, the US and UK stand back and applaud. The rest of the world is not so accomodating of Israels 'right to defend itself'
 
I've heard that they have now started bombing sources of food production. Is there really nothing that cannot be considered a target?
 
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:


Well, all is not lost. Diplomacy had to rear its ugly head eventually, and today Condoleeza Rice visits Israel for 'frank' discussions with Mr Olmert. What effect will her visit have? Is there seriously a hope for a ceasfire with Americas help, or is this visit nothing more than window dressing to create the impression that the Bush Whitehouse wants Israel to stop??

Here comes Condie.... 

 
If they really gave 2 hoots about saving innocent peoples' lives, they would have sent somebody immediately that Israel started bombing and not wait until hundreds are dead and the country is half destroyed.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2006 at 05:08
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:


The difference in international media reporting will always fascinate me.
    
 
Yes. I first remember this when reading online Serbian newspapers during the Kosovo war.
 
You would hope that having the ability to read everyones' viewpoints would increase understanding and reduce conflicts. Sadly that doesn't seem to be the case.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2006 at 05:20
Originally posted by Bob Greece Bob Greece wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

While Israel continues to push its dubious agenda of bombing ambulances and taring this country to pieces, the US and UK stand back and applaud. The rest of the world is not so accomodating of Israels 'right to defend itself'

 

I've heard that they have now started bombing sources of food production. Is there really nothing that cannot be considered a target?

 

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

Well, all is not lost. Diplomacy had to rear its ugly head eventually, and today Condoleeza Rice visits Israel for 'frank' discussions with Mr Olmert. What effect will her visit have? Is there seriously a hope for a ceasfire with Americas help, or is this visit nothing more than window dressing to create the impression that the Bush Whitehouse wants Israel to stop?? Here comes Condie.... 

 

If they really gave 2 hoots about saving innocent peoples' lives, they would have sent somebody immediately that Israel started bombing and not wait until hundreds are dead and the country is half destroyed.


I guess the US regard this as part of the 'war on terror' They must be delighted that Israel are doing the dirty work on Hezbollah here. After all, Hezbollah are very strongly linked to Iran and Syria. However, it seems that Israels current campaign has been ineffective in crushing the terrorists, and has succeeded only in killing civillians. Sadly it will get to a point where so many are radicalised and enraged by the Zionist onslaught, that the terror cycle will be set to worsen for Israel and the west. Not improve. Perhaps Israel have realised this and will set about a mass extermination program once their invasion starts.
    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2006 at 08:21
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I guess the US regard this as part of the 'war on terror'     
 
According to the BBC news today, Condoleeza went to Israel to express support not to ask for a ceasefire.
 
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

However, it seems that Israels current campaign has been ineffective in crushing the terrorists, and has succeeded only in killing civillians. Sadly it will get to a point where so many are radicalised and enraged by the Zionist onslaught, that the terror cycle will be set to worsen for Israel and the west. Not improve. 
 
This was obvious to me. Israel won't get rid of Hizbollah this way. The bombing of Lebanon is just a big recruiting drive for them. What little chance there was for peace in the Middle East has just got a lot lot further away.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2006 at 09:53
Originally posted by Bob Greece Bob Greece wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

I guess the US regard this as part of the 'war on terror'     

 

According to the BBC news today, Condoleeza went to Israel to express support not to ask for a ceasefire.

 





Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

However, it seems that Israels current campaign has been ineffective in crushing the terrorists, and has succeeded only in killing civillians. Sadly it will get to a point where so many are radicalised and enraged by the Zionist onslaught, that the terror cycle will be set to worsen for Israel and the west. Not improve. 

 

This was obvious to me. Israel won't get rid of Hizbollah this way. The bombing of Lebanon is just a big recruiting drive for them. What little chance there was for peace in the Middle East has just got a lot lot further away.

    

..and of course the worse the terror threat gets for them - and us - the more we will fight back. It's a familiar cycle. The perfect recipe for escalation.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2006 at 12:11
I bet part of the reason the response was slow is the we (the US) is piss scared of this whole thing. We are streched so thin around the world, any serious involvement in this conflict would lead to questions of whether or not we would get involved, which would require a draft, which I personally think should be abolished.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 25 2006 at 16:23
A draft would be a nightmare and a very bad move. I'm inclined to think there would be so much opposition in the US even Bush wouldn't go that far..

That said, if the conflict escalates..... ?

The Israelis want a NATO peacekeeping force on the Lebanese border. This will conveniently position up to 20,000 foreign troops in the area, and is a shrewd way of pulling other nations into this. Hezbollah will capitlaise on this too, by targetting them. This would lead to more being sent to the region, stretching western military forces to breaking point (if we're not nearly there already). Meanwhile the invisible terrorists will be targetting the US and EU.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2006 at 07:08
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:


The Israelis want a NATO peacekeeping force on the Lebanese border. This will conveniently position up to 20,000 foreign troops in the area, and is a shrewd way of pulling other nations into this. Hezbollah will capitlaise on this too, by targetting them. This would lead to more being sent to the region, stretching western military forces to breaking point (if we're not nearly there already). Meanwhile the invisible terrorists will be targetting the US and EU.
 
I never thought of that. But I thought that there are already UN troups in the area. Weren't the UN in Lebanon in the past?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 26 2006 at 07:24
Originally posted by Bob Greece Bob Greece wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

The Israelis want a NATO peacekeeping force on the Lebanese border. This will conveniently position up to 20,000 foreign troops in the area, and is a shrewd way of pulling other nations into this. Hezbollah will capitlaise on this too, by targetting them. This would lead to more being sent to the region, stretching western military forces to breaking point (if we're not nearly there already). Meanwhile the invisible terrorists will be targetting the US and EU.

 

I never thought of that. But I thought that there are already UN troups in the area. Weren't the UN in Lebanon in the past?


Yes, the UN are still there. Two UN peacekeepers were killed by the Israelis this morning (or last night) The Israelis claim it was an accident, but apparently it 'appeared' to be deliberate.

Israel does not like the UN, and doesn't want them there.
    
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2006 at 10:03
When I read these stories I just feel despair ...
 
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5218036.stm

 
It makes you want to cry doesn't it?


Edited by Bob Greece - July 27 2006 at 10:04
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 27 2006 at 11:53
^ Yes, it's a dreadful situation.



I cant believe the Israeli arrogance - I know there is good and bad on both sides - but to claim the whole world supports them is incredible. The US and the UK support them. Thats all. The rest of the world is opposed to this action.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2006 at 04:13

This is ridiculous. UN expresses 'shock and distress' about UN deaths. Of course, it's terrible but what about the hundreds of other people dying. Wacko

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5222890.stm

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2006 at 04:26
Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

The US and the UK support them. 
 
I don't think the UK supports them. It's just that Tony Blair is so keen to do anything to please Bush.
 
Yo Blair!


Edited by Bob Greece - July 28 2006 at 04:27
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2006 at 04:36
I heard a report of 600 dead in conflict so far. All for 3 soldiers...*shakes head*
 
Is this supposed to be justified?
 
Lasting peace my ass! How naive can we be? Ask for a cease-fire now!!! Wasn't there a cease-fire at the time of the kidnappings?!?! Like anything will prevent it from happening again.
 
As for the US, I say have no involvment at all. I'm sick and tired of this bullsh*t conflict! You want to blow yourselves to pieces? FINE! I'd rather live my life than have it involved in a futile conflict. Whenever you guys feel like dropping this sh*t and joining the 21st century, the western hemisphere is wide open.
 
Edit: No offense intended to those who might be offended. Thinking out loud....


Edited by stonebeard - July 28 2006 at 04:38
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: July 28 2006 at 04:52
Originally posted by Bob Greece Bob Greece wrote:

Originally posted by Blacksword Blacksword wrote:

The US and the UK support them. 



 

I don't think the UK supports them. It's just that Tony Blair is so keen to do anything to please Bush.

 

Yo Blair!


Yeah, you're right, Bob. Margarat Beckett wasn't happy about Prestwick airport being used to ship bombs to Israel. Blair is once again in Bushs lap, although they are meeting today I believe, and Blair intends to try and pursuade Bush to call for a ceasefire.

The only chance of a diplomatic solution is if the entire world isolates the US and Israel, and of course if Hezbollah stops firing rockets into Northern Israel too. It's a two way street, but the double standards of Israel, and the west generally are shameful.
    
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