Is the Middle East going to war?
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Topic: Is the Middle East going to war?
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Subject: Is the Middle East going to war?
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 14:08
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Possibly:
1. Israel took out a Gaza strip power transformer and several bridges, while Israeli troops have begun reoccupying the southern Gaza Strip (near Rafah), in response to thousands of Qassam attacks on border towns the kidnapping of an Israeli soldier within the 1967 lines. This kidnapping's responsibilty was partially claimed by Hamas's military wing. This is the largest military operation Israel has launched, since Operation Defensive Shield, when it re-occupied the West Bank, in 2002. Amir Peretz, the Israeli MoD (who looks like Stalin) just authorized the IDF to move into northern Gaza, near Gaza City.
2. Israel has made several "flyovers" of Bashar el Assad (Syria) compound, low enough to create sonic booms, to pressure him to release Khaled Meshaal, the "real" boss of Hamas.
3. Israel has all but declared war on the Palestinian Authority: saying that the Gaza strip is foreign soil ruled by a foreign government committed to its destruction which has made recent attacks againt Israel, climaxing in the kidnap of the soldier for ransom.
4. Jordan and Egypt have been working furiously to defuse the situation, since they would be caught in a precarious position should there be another Arab-Israeli war. Similarly, Mahmoud Abbas, the PA prez, is also workign frantically behind the scenes to have the hostage released, since he knows if he doesn't this is the end of his relevance.
5. Egypt has mobilised its troops along the Gaza border, to prevent refugees and the hostage from being transferred to Egypt.
6. The wildcards here are the US and EU, as of yet no reaction, though it's coming.
I think this will eventually cool off regarding other states in the ME, because this isn't the 60's and 70's, and they've learned to put self-interest over Ideology (for the most part), but this is wothout doubt the nadir of Israeli-Palestinian relations over the last 4 years. Nonetheless, I'm very worried.
So, MTS, Blacksword, AALFW, all the others, what are your predictions:
(note: this thread isn't about criticizing, both sides have their faults, it's about predicting what the situation will become
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Replies:
Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 14:31
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They are all dancing on a powder keg over there. ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: crimson thing
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 14:35
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What exactly, one wonders, are the Israeli tamks & troops to attack? All that the Palestinians have is people.....and houses. (Obviously they won't attack any of the major states in the region.) So, they'll look bad in the eyes of the world, kill a few Palestinians, destroy many houses, and perpetuate the hatred that the Palestinians have for Israel. Which is probably what they want, as it provides an excuse for never sanctioning a Palestinian state. Still, look on the bright side, it's US tax dollars that is paying for all the hardware on display........ The basic problem, though, is that Israel is making the same mistake as as the US currently is - using military tactics to deal with a few criminals. ------------- "Every man over forty is a scoundrel." GBS 
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Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 14:38
I predict that as usual innocent human beings will killed on both "sides". To think that this area is still a powder-keg in the 21st Century nauseates me. Who the heck wants to live like that in constant fear? The people who allow this to continue are not civilised people. |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 14:42
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Crimson: as of now, Israelis have not moved into any built up areas, only open areas, as a buffer with Israel proper. Urban warfare is a nightmare for both sides. So far no reported casualties, but that's so far.
When the attacks are coming from the militant half of the PA ruling party, I think it's more than just petty criminals. -------------
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Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 14:51
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Update:
Syria is claiming it fired at the IAF jets, causing them to disperse. Uncomfirmed by IDF.
I doubt it though, Syria always says they've done stuff they haven't to look strong for their people. -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 15:07
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This is a worrying development. As you say no reaction from the US or EU as yet, but they cant stay silent on this for much longer.
My hope is that this will cool off and not escalate into something far bigger. My gut feeling is that may be the case. I hope the Palestinians release the young soldier they kidnapped, but I have a bad feeling about his well being. I feel also he may be being used as a politcal tool, and an excuse by the new Israeli PM to flex some muscle, and show how hardline he is in dealing with terrorism. I think this is a bad move by Israel, which could ultimately end up with this young man losing his life. The Israeli government must step back from the brink and pressure Mabbas - who has condemned the kidnapping - to work to secure his release. Is the ME about to explode? Well, the propheteers claim this is the year where it will all 'kick off' Lets hope they're wrong. Things do seem to be moving very much in the wrong direction since Sharon left the shop. Not that I'm a huge fan of Sharon, but the new guy in town appears to be frothing at the mouth. It's worth remembering that there is great deal of dischord among Palestinian factions. This must be capitilised on by Israel and the west to avoid further bloodshed on both sides. I know wat you think of the UN, Nets, but I really think the international community should be doing everything they can to bring both sides to the table, and recognise how serious this could be. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 15:28
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^ Blackie, I don't think the Int'l community should play no role in this, just not the UN. I basically support the Quartet and the road map, which both sides scream about but neither follows.
If Sharon were still running things this operation would have happened months ago. He was a military man who didn't care about western opinion -- Olmert is the opposite. -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 15:36
Does Olmert really care about western opinion? I dont know much about him, I must admit. Why is all this happening now? Our media has not really given any coverage to the other points you mentioned; troops on Egyptian border etc. Now I read that, I'm inclined to think this may be the start of something bigger. I always thought the road map was something of a red herring, even when Sharon ordered the dismantleing of the West Bank settlements last year, I assumed it was just political manouvering. Things seem to be going backwards. According to our media, the kidnapping seems to be at the core of this. I wish no harm on this young soldier, but the Israeli reaction seems to be overkill. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
NetsNJFan wrote:Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 15:42
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It's not just the kidnapping, but that was seen as a "last straw" since it occurred in Israel proper. It is more a response to the 1000+ qassam rockets launched from Gaza since Israel withdrew.
Yea Olmert is pretty beholden to Western opinion, especially of the USA. He came back from his USA/EU tour spouting very different rhetoric.
But yea, I think it is pretty bad. No good will come of this, except maybe a few weeks of quite on the Gaza border for Israel. -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 15:46
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I found this on the back shelf of the BBC news site. It seems Israel is accusing Syria of complicity in the kidnapping.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5126058.stm - BBC Report Assuming this does not escalte into a broader conflict, dont see how this crisis can be resolved without significant bloodshed on both sides. I also dont see how the Israeli incursions are going to improve things in the longer term. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 16:59
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I hate to see these things happen. When are people going to realize that you can't change opinion at the barrel of a gun. The U.S. probably won't do anything, except talk, or sanctions. There's no money in it for Cheney and friends. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 17:04
Sanctions on who? Israel has already shelled a power station and is threatening to cut off water supplies. There is very little we can do to punish the Hamas government. They dont really have anything except foreign aid, and much of that has` already been cut. There is not much the US, or anyone can do really. This conflict belongs to Israel and the Palestinians. If the PA refuses to recognise Israel, and Israel continues it's heavy handed approach there is no hope. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 17:04
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Well first of all it's terrible to see things happening. After so many efforts to try to compromise between Israel and Palestine, things still seem to be the way they always have been, and maybe even getting worse. I don't believe there will be war anytime soon. The Internatioinal community is going to intervene and more negoiations will take place and eventually bring forth a ceasefire. However I do believe that there will be more violence than the International community was hoping for this year.
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"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls." |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 17:35
Exactly, there is little anyone can do about Hamas. Palestinians will suffer under this extremist government, but their hatred will turn to Israel and supposed collaborators like Abu Mazen, when they should turn to Hamas, who has made them into pariahs. -------------
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Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 17:47
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here is the Int'l response:
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Posted By: maani
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 17:51
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True, there is a great deal of potentially dangerous "muscle-flexing" going on right now. However, I don't think it will lead to any kind of widespread conflagration. Still, it would be best if everyone there took a chil pill and "toned down" the "perceived hostile acts."
Peace. (Now more than ever...)
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 17:57
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It's interesting that the EU calls on BOTH sides to seek a diplomatic solution, but the US decines to comment on Israeli reaction, and blames Hamas for everything. Washinton merely states that Israel has the right to defend itself. I dont think many people would dispute that, but why is the US so reluctant to criticise Israeli action?
I think more could be achieved if the US took a more balanced view. It seems to me to be a 'no brainer' that nothing will be achieved in bringing about a ceasefire, by Israels current course of action. Perhaps Israel, or indeed both sides are delberately trying to escalate this conflict. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: AtLossForWords
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 18:02
At the same time Washington in the past has prohibited Israel from using the force that they want to use. Washington has repeatedly sided with Israel, but at the same time limited Israel's military options. I wish Washington would stop playing Israel for fools and tell them one of two things. Either to wholeheartedly support Israel and allow them to use all force they believe necessary, or become a mediator and try to bring both sides togethor in agreement.
I much prefer the second option, but I think the U.S. really needs to take a stand on this situation. -------------
"Mastodon sucks giant monkey balls." |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 18:06
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^ good point AALFW, I agree. -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 18:09
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Washington may have forbid Israel to use force in the past, but what are the consequences for Israel if they ignore Washington? Not much.
Generally, the US IS in full support of Israel. They may grimace occassionally at Israels heavy handedness, but they are very much behind the Jewish state. I can understand the US supporting this vital democracy in the ME, but balance in their views can still be possible, while supporting the democratic principles Israel stands for. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 28 2006 at 18:18
That isn't true. The aid pursestrings are very powerful, and depending on congress, are loosened and tightened based on American approval/dissaproval. America is pretty responsible for Israel completely changing the WB fence route.
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Posted By: JrKASperov
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 03:39
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Powder keg? I don't think so. What could happen? War between the two countries? Isn't that already happening?
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 05:16
Yes, it been happening since 1948. I think the fear is that the conflict could expand, if other countries, sympathetic to the Palestinian position, decide to get involved. This will depend on how heavy handed Israel are, and of course how far the PA decide to push Israel, by killing those they have taken hostage, or by continuing rocket attacks. You're right. This is, basically nothing new, and the conflict has had the potential to expand in the past. I think there is an almost irrational sense of 'apocalypse' in the air at present, due to fear of global terror, Iran and North Koreas nuclear programs. Many people believe that this conflict is quite central to the overal problem, and I share that view to a point. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 06:17
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Update:
Israel has captured and detained dozens of Hamas government ministers and law makers. Israeli tanks are poised to move on northern Gaza. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5127556.stm - BBC Report ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Sean Trane
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 06:22
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It has not been this bad in a few decades if you ask me.
You have Israeli forces taking hostages/prisoners ministers of another Gov't. That has been unseen in quite a while
They had besieged the buildings before, but not taken as prisoners.
------------- let's just stay above the moral melee prefer the sink to the gutter keep our sand-castle virtues content to be a doer as well as a thinker, prefer lifting our pen rather than un-sheath our sword |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 08:09
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Perhaps it's the beginning of this....
http://www.contenderministries.org/prophecy/gogmagog.php - Gog & Magog 
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 08:44
yeah... that caught my attention immediately... then again it's not like they are not at war.. and haven't been for many many years... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: TheProgtologist
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 11:14
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The question is....When ISN'T the Middle East going to war? -------------  |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 11:19
the better question is... has there been a time that it HASN'T been... even before 1948. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 11:35
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Sean: I think it is important to distinguish the situation of the hostages. The Hamas ministers are in air conditioned Israeli prisons, with access to the outside world and are living under humanitarian conditions. The Israeli corporal is in some rat infested Khan Yunis hellhole with a blindfold and rifle in his face, if he isn't dead yet.
Progtologist; Micky; Sean: Good point, I should have said is the ME moving towards a flare up in the state of war that has existed since 1947. Your right, technically Israel is "officially" at war with every member of the Arab league, except Jordan and Egypt. -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 13:04
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Opinion on the Israeli incursions is very divided in Isarel too. The Israeli press are not convinced the actions will help secure the release of their young soldier.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5124132.stm - BBc Report ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 13:21
That isn't exactly true. Even the dovish, left-wing, get out of the territories Meretz party is supporting the incursion. This is the most united Israel has been in a while, politically. -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 13:49
I guess the Israeli press have their own agenda, like any media. But, it is the job of the free press to question the actions of those democratically elected to lead. Even if they dont always reflect public opinion. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 13:58
Of course Blacksword. The Israeli press does ten to lean left, especially Haaretz and Yediot Achronot, but the Jerusalem Post is right, so it balances out. And both sides criticize the government incessantly, usually with different takes on the same issue. "Your being to tough...you're not being tough enough!" etc. -------------
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Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 14:15
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This may be only partially relevant but I just read that a suicide bomber in Iraq drove a car loaded with a bomb into a funeral gathering, killing 17. Wouldn't all people consider that the apex of cowardice? Is there no shred of decency left? A funeral is a terrorists target now? ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 14:28
That is what they do. Weddings are also frequent targets, in Israel and Iraq, and now even Jordan.
Nothing is worse though, than when they attack nursery schools though. How can human beings do that? All of the schools in Sderot, an Israeli town near Gaza, had to close a month early because of the Qassam rocket attacks from the strip. -------------
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Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 14:50
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I don't know, man. How can any religion, no matter how radical, imagine a reward in heaven for such atrocities? News items like this crush any hopes I have for peace in the middle east. ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 15:00
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UPDATE: from Yediot Achronot
Hamas officials to stand trial Vice Premier Shimon Peres said in an interview to CNN that Israel intended to submit indictments against the Hamas members under arrest.
Israel plans to submit criminal charges against senior Hamas leaders arrested Wednesday night, Attorney General Menachem Mazuz rules; according to Central Command chief, detainees won't be used as bargaining chip Aviram Zino Attorney General Menachem Mazuz ordered security forces to carry out criminal, rather than civilian arrests of Hamas senior officials, so that they can be tried according to the Terror-Prevention Act, sources in the Justice Ministry told Ynet Thursday. The detainees launched a hunger strike. Peres was asked in the interview why the Hamas top figures were arrested. He answered by saying that their arrest is not arbitrary, and added that they will stand trial and they will be able to defend themselves. Meanwhile, Central Command Chief Yair Naveh said that Hamas members would not be used as bargaining chips, adding that they would be charged.
Some of Hamas members under arrest (Photo: AFP)
"The arrested senior figures are tied to financing and aiding terror attacks. Just this year Hamas killed six civilians in Judea and Samaria, kidnapped Nuriel Sasson a few months ago, and carried out shooting attacks in roads in the last few days," Naveh said.
Examining arrests
Shortly after the establishment of the Hamas government, sources at the Attorney General's Office began consultations on how to act against Hamas on the legal level.
In recent days a request was received by the political rank in Jerusalem and the Shin Bet to look into the possibility of arresting senior members of the Palestinian Legislative Council.
In general there are a number of accepted paths in such a case – the first is an administrative detention, usually carried out when there is a shortage of witnesses, or when there is a desire not to expose intelligence information. The second path is the criminal arrests, requiring a higher level of eye witnesses, beyond reasonable doubt.
It was this path that was chosen in accordance with the Terror Prevention Act. The Justice Ministry spokesman explained that all of the arrestees were Hamas officials, which is a terrorist organization, and their membership in a terror organization is a severe violation.
Sources in the ministry say the arrests could have taken place two months ago, but the decision to arrest them had to be taken by the political rank, and was therefore only carried out tonight, apparently following recent security developments. ---------------------------------------------------------------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: June 29 2006 at 15:37
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hahah.... that's what I've loved about the Israeli's... they don't pussyfoot around do they.. you just knew the situation was going to get bad when terrorists are elected to political office. I'll need to read up on what's going on though... he who has the guns makes the rules of course, but under what laws would they be charged, and are they subject to them. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 30 2006 at 03:26
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Not top of the pile on TV news by any means, but this story takes the lead on the BBC website. Israeli air strikes have struck the PA Interior ministry, incurring the first fatality since the incursion began. The UN is also warning of an imminent humanitarian crisis in Gaza.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5131404.stm - BBC Report ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: June 30 2006 at 03:51
As awful as such acts are, the word "cowardice" hardly applies. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 30 2006 at 05:20
I would agree. Cowardice is nothing to do with these acts. It's a case of religous psychosis, blatant insanity or at best psychopathy, that drives these actions. These people are nothing in this life, but their mental illness leads them to believe they may be something in the next. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: imoeng
Date Posted: June 30 2006 at 07:34
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The best thing is, to give all of the Dream Theater, well, prog CDS, to each of them... Then all of them have to write reviews, peace upon earth.. ------------- http://img360.imageshack.us/my.php?image=spmiw7.jpg"> 
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Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: June 30 2006 at 08:53
According to Wikipedia "Someone who attacks and/or kills a defenseless person is also considered a coward." Blowing up people who are in public mourning over a loved one would apply. I stand by my original assessment. ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 30 2006 at 09:39
The UN is ALWAYS warning about the latest humanitarian crisis in Gaza. No money for food, but money for Qassam rockets and automatic rifles? Please. -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 30 2006 at 10:11
I dont think money is the issue. It's more a case of food and medical supplies not getting through. Attacking civillian infrastructure is not going to achieve anything but a potential worsening of the problem. Besides Nets, it's not the entire population of Gaza building rockets and dealing out death. Whether you like to admit it or not the extremists are a minority. As for the rockets, I wouldn't be surprised if their conponant parts were donated from an outside source. Syria perhaps. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 30 2006 at 10:33
Good point, the Syria-Iran axis is responsible for much of the terror, they are the ones who control Hizbullah, and partially Hamas. Whether or not the extremists are a minority, a democratically elected Hamas party is a tacit approval from the Palestinian people of their tactics.
Food and medical supplies don't get through because every time Israel opens the Rafah crossing, they have to close it because of a terror threat. The crossings are frequent targets, and while I sympathize with the majority of the Pales population suffering, its understandable to see why the borders are always closed. I think the term humanitarian crisis is overused in this conflict, while I don't doubt there are temporary ones, the UN basically considers it a continuous one, which doesn't make sense in light of the fact that Palestinians have a life expectancy comprable to that in the USA.
I thought this was an interesting editorial; a critique of Palestinian leadership, not the people:
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: June 30 2006 at 13:17
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^ That is an interesting read. Thanks for sharing it Nets.
There have always been problems with Palestinian leadership, and it's a tragedy for the peace process that Hamas were elected to power. There are gains to be made by both sides using propoganda and portraying themselves as the sole victims in the conflict. The situation is complicated, and I fear one without end or solution. A two state solution seems like a positive idea, but it wouldn't alter the fact that much of the Arab world wants an end to Israel. It also wouldn't alter the fact that there are rabid right wing Jewish elements who see expansion beyond current borders - however ill defined - as essential to establish Israel as the world leaders after the 'apocalypse war' Thankfully adherence to religous prophecy is not 'apparently' the goal of the Israeli government. That said, western style democracies are able to dress up their more cotraversial agendas in a far more palatable and marketable form than their Arab/Muslim counterparts. Peace may be the ultimate goal of innocent people on both sides, but these folk dont call the shots. Even in a democracy, power corrupts and extreme elements will persist on both sides. I fear for the future of that region. I agree, to an extent, that the term 'Humanitarian crisis' is used alot by the UN in relation to the Palestinian position. Their predicament is clearly not on the scale of say, that witnessed in Darfur or Rwanda, but the potential is there for the crisis to reach a point, where damage to civillian infrastructure could lead to a complete collapse of the PA. That would not solve anything. It would merely inspire more terrorism. I believe Israel needs to do everything in its power to maintain and promote the moral high ground. Terrorism is, after all, abhorant in all its forms. Their current action undermines their credibility IMO. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: June 30 2006 at 13:28
| Nets: Thanks for posting that article, it was a fascinating read. |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 30 2006 at 14:22
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Blacksword: I agree, the recent events are most unfortuanate for both sides. I do feel, however that it could have been avoided. Had the Int'l community pressured Hamas to stop the rocket fire from Gaza, there would have been no invasion. The again, it isn't like the Hamas government ever listens to the world, they wouldn't now.
I've been trying to think of another way Israel could have stopped the Qassam attacks, and I'm stumped. Any ideas Blacksword?
(I know this is being framed in context of the kidnapping, but it is really about the Qassam rocket fire on Sderot, for which the PM, MoD were getting roasted by the public). -------------
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Posted By: crimson thing
Date Posted: June 30 2006 at 14:43
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Whether or not you agree with their assessment, you won't stop the Palestinians attacking Israel as long as they believe they're trying to regain their own land. What do they have to lose? And it's not as if there are any counter offers on the table.......after all, how would you feel if someone invaded & occupied the whole of the US.......but expected you to feel grateful that you were offered back Montana & RI as full & final settlement......... ------------- "Every man over forty is a scoundrel." GBS
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Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 30 2006 at 16:13
I know, Crimson I do understand their viewpoint. They have been victims of History, pawns between the Arabs and the Israelis. Nonetheless, they do have something to lose, the Gaza Strip, which they've now lost. My problem is that this conflict isn't about the territories, it's about Israel proper. The Palestinians already have close to 78% of Mandatory Palestine, with the Jews having 17%. This conflict isn't about the 5% that are the territories, it is about the 17% occupied by the Jews. The PLO was founded in 1964, before the territories were occupied.
There has been offer after offer after offer, all turned down. Olmert is offering a full withdrawal from 90% of the WB, with negotiations to determine the remainign 10%. What is the problem with this offer? Is it that they don't want the Israelis to leave? -------------
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Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: June 30 2006 at 16:49
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Update:
Typical UN is at it again; not a peep over 400,000 dead in Darfur. But the Gaza incursion, where I think 6 people have died, denotes a special session of the Security Council. Give me a freaking break.
The UN always does this, it always has its two perennial issues. 1) Israel 2) whatever else there is time for before lunch. -------------
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Posted By: spacecraft
Date Posted: July 01 2006 at 20:41
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For too long, the Palestinians have been run by terrorists, who do not want peace at any cost. Hamas are always going to be a problem and i hope Israel will deal with them in their usual cold blooded efficiency. The US and the Eu will stand by, but spout their usual mutterings, whilst allowing the Israelis to protect their own, as it should be.
Much is made of the Israeli insurgence into the Gaza strip, bombs dropping here, innocent people killed there. But, hardly anyone blinks an eye when the obnoxious, ignorant and arogant race ( not England, but the Arabs, and Palestinions in particular) kill Jews.
The only way there will be peace in the middle east is when the Palestinions realise that Israel is here to stay, and will, quite rightly, defend itself in any way it wants. ------------- To Him as the Supreme King and Judge we commit our cause, casting our cares upon Him and firmly trusting that He will inspire us with courage and bring our enemies to nought. |
Posted By: Root_Pepper
Date Posted: July 01 2006 at 20:54
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I'll try and not be critical, but I cannot BELIEVE the overwhelming and
unnecessary force used by Israel in this current conflict. They are
being the bullies in this situation, despite the medias attempt to
victimize them - while simultaneously demonizing Hamas. I understand
that Hamas is not the most angelic of organizations, but there is no
right of Israel in arresting the Paelstinian government members. If
Hamas entered Israel and arrested their leaders, there would be
worldwide outrage. I know it's dangerous to say negative things about
Israel, especially without recieving criticism, but they are really
adding fuel to this fire right now. A new type of world war is on the
breach, especially with these multiple Middle Eastern struggles adding
up (Iraq, Iran, Israel, Afghanistan...)
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Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: July 01 2006 at 22:19
What overwhelming force? The number of casualties can be counted on one hand... -------------
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Posted By: Root_Pepper
Date Posted: July 01 2006 at 23:30
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It's not the casulties that count, it's the sheer firepower they've
brought in. It's the destruction of power plants removing safe water
supplies or reliant electricity throughout Gaza. It's the shock and awe
tactics that have Palestinians hiding in their homes. It's these
actions that breed terrorism.
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Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: July 01 2006 at 23:43
I disagree. I think the power plant attack was a mistake in retrospect, but terrorism is endemic to Palestinian culture. Israel faced constant terrorism from Palestinian factions (egged on by Egypt and Syria) way before it occupied the territories. -------------
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Posted By: Root_Pepper
Date Posted: July 02 2006 at 06:08
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With such extreme fundings and firepower, a force as well armed as
Israel doesn't have an excuse for such mistakes. And do you know where
the terrorism originally stems from? There's a reason why the people
are this desperate, it's not pointless, ruthless killings. They aren't
willing to turn to the lowest possible medium for attack without a
cause. I'm not justifying the acts, but I think one should look at what
went wrong in causing people to need to use such a concept of violence.
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Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: July 02 2006 at 11:20
Wikipedia is hardly the most credible source in this matter. Anyone who is prepared to take their own life is hardly a coward, regardless of the manner in which they do it. cow·ard·ice https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fbrowse%2FCowardice">  P http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html - Pronunciation Key (kou  r-d s)n.
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Posted By: Forgotten Son
Date Posted: July 02 2006 at 11:28
I beg your pardon?  |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 02 2006 at 14:15
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Hamas threatens further rocket attacks, and Gaza prepares for all out war with Israel..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5131228.stm - On the brink? ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: July 02 2006 at 14:41
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^ Blacksword, is it not all out war already? I consider gunfire back and forth war. -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 02 2006 at 15:59
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^ I think so yes, but it's a question of what words you choose to describe the situation. I'm sure if you asked PM Olmert if he was at war he would say 'No' for reasons of PR.
If it gets to a point, and it will, when Hamas starts fighting back, the term 'war' will be unavoidable. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: July 02 2006 at 16:21
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Hamas gunmen are already fighting back. Its definately war at this point, just as I think 2002 Operation Defensive Shield was war. -------------
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Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: July 02 2006 at 16:57
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 02 2006 at 17:06
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Once again, the mainstream media chooses to play down/ignore the presence of Israeli fighter jets flying over the summer retreat of the Syrian leader. The jets were apparently fired upon and retreated.\ This does have the real potential to escalate..
http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7004057985 - Provocative.. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: July 02 2006 at 17:13
Blacksword, this is hardly new news. This was days ago. I seriously doubt the Syrians chased the Israelis away. They are just saying that to save face. During the six day war Syrian state radio said that they shot down over 80 Israeli Jets and were advancing on Haifa.
The Syrians are smart, they won't fire on the planes because they no they can't win this fight, if it comes. That of course wont stop them and Iran from funding Hizbullah and Hamas.
American news channels talked about this quite a bit.
It was interesting, I watched BBC News last night, very different from CNN/Fox News. -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 02 2006 at 17:19
I know this not hot off the press, but this is serious and the BBC and ITN have not even mentioned it on TV. You had to go out of your way to find the news on their websites. It's as if they are under instruction to play down the potential seriousness of the situation. Syria may not have fired on the jets...but they may have. Who knows. They are within their rights to do so, and their armed forces are quite formidable, certainly more so than Iraqs ever were. It seems that Israel may be deliberatly baiting them to pull them into the conflict. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: July 02 2006 at 17:23
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^ Good points Blacksword. English media isn't mentioning this, I'm shocked. The Syrian flyovers were talked about extensively on Fox News, and less so on CNN. -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 03 2006 at 03:23
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Update:
Palestinian militants have given Israel until Tuesday to release Palestinian prisoners or 'face the consequences' whatever that means. A degree of sabre rattling, I'm sure. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5139848.stm - BBC Report ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 00:33
Update from Jpost.com:
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 05 2006 at 03:25
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^ That represents a potentially more serious escalation of the crisis than the rocket attack on Ashkelon in recent days.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5148554.stm - BBC Report With both sides baiting each other like this, it's obvious they are trying to escalate this conflict beyond control, at this specific point in time. The abduction of Gilad Shalit and the rocket attacks, warrent response from Israel, but not the major conflageration they appear to be trying to bring about. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 10:52
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Well, this seems to be going very well. If Israel keeps up this pressure it should all be over in no time. The kidknapped soldier is bound to be released, and the Palestianians will see the error of their ways. Perhaps after that the Middle East can live happily ever after..
I dont think..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5153036.stm - 8 down, a few hundred thousand to go... ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 13:16
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^ It looks like we are in for a second Operation Defensive Shield. So much for "convergence" from the West Bank.
I thought the original incursion was appropriate, but I think the situation is spinning out of control.
Blacksword, I thought you might find this editorial interesting, from Haaretz:
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 15:40
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^ Interesting read, Nets. Lets hope Aluf Benn is correct in his appraisal of the situation. Lets hope that the assumed rational nature of Bashar Assad prevents Syria from rising to the bait that Israel is putting out.
In reality, Syria will not cease supporting Hamas. Assad will no doubt be aware of Israels intentions to 'irritate' him. Lets hope that his irritation does not turn into rage. Israel are playing a dangerous game here. If they have so far failed to subdue Syrias support for Hamas, there's little reason why Israels scare tactics should succeed now. Israel may be gesturing more than anything else, in their fly pasts over Assads palace, but what are the actual consequences of this tactic back firing. Syria could indeed attack srael, inviiting death on themselves, but either way Israel hold all the aces. It may mean sacrificing a few thousand Israelis in Tel Aviv, but the end result would be the demise of a major enemy, and supplier of Hamas. A worthwhile sacrifice? It's a sickening thought, but are we making too many assumptions about both sides? Is Aluf Benn merely trying to alay Israeli civilian fears of an attack from Syria, in his editorial? A downplaying of the situation. Maybe he's right, but I for one dont really trust Assad, and I have difficulty with Olmerts agenda too, I'm afraid. Lets hope sense and peace prevail. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: July 06 2006 at 16:48
I suppose everyone on this forum should consider you now to be a better source of definitions than Wikipedia. I am humbled. ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 05:18
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Two Israeli troops captured by Hezbollah, on the Lebanese border..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5171616.stm - Breaking News (BBC) ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: avestin
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 07:59
This is looking very bad. Some of my friends have been called to their reserve units to replace the regular army units so they can be available for whatever is to come.
I am waiting to be called as well, probably.
This is the time of the warmongerers ------------- http://hangingsounds.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - Hanging Sounds http://www.progarchives.com/ProgRockShopping.asp" rel="nofollow - PA Index of prog music vendors |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 08:24
Are you in Israel, avestin?? ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: edible_buddha
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 08:49
Agree with forgotten son.
I feel that Spacecraft should do some research into just how many ppl are killed and injured in both sides of the conflict (not just currently, but also since the inception of israel, and especially since the '2nd intafada'). Also to find out just how much money is being funded to both sides. Then there is the effect on livelihoods of the civilians there (yes there are palastinian civilians too).
The 'oh my god israel is being driven into the sea' arguement is not holding water, we are talking about a 'state' that has already been driven there.
Also, I hear more about the deaths of isralies by palastinians that vise versa (in spite of actual casualty statistics), so, many eyes are blinked indeed.
I just love how countries like USA and Israel, who have been wanting the world to be democratic, react to a country whose ppl uses democracy to vote in a party they dont like..... Theres got to be a reason palestinians voted the way they did... has anybody asked them?
------------- I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long. |
Posted By: avestin
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 10:04
Yes. And my wife and I are going to leave it on August 6th to the USA for PhD studies. Now I am afraid I will not have the chance to do it, since I will be called to my unit. I feel terrible. This is very depressing. I thought I was used to getting my life being manipulated and disturved by all these outside intrusions in the appearance of the Arab-Israeli conflict, but this is really frightening. I honestly don't know what to do. ------------- http://hangingsounds.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - Hanging Sounds http://www.progarchives.com/ProgRockShopping.asp" rel="nofollow - PA Index of prog music vendors |
Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 10:21
That's terrible, Assaf.  Is there any chance at all that you wouldn't be called to your unit? ------------- 
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Posted By: avestin
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 10:25
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^^^ Chances are little as I see it. For the time being, only officers have been called so that they will be told what to expect. Then after receving their orders, the rest of the commanding force (which I am part of in my unit) and the rest of the soldiers will be called as well. Honestly, I fear the worst. I hope I am wrong. ------------- http://hangingsounds.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - Hanging Sounds http://www.progarchives.com/ProgRockShopping.asp" rel="nofollow - PA Index of prog music vendors |
Posted By: Jimbo
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 10:48
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^^ Wow...That's seriously depressing .... I can't imagine what you're going through right now. I guess the only thing we can do at this point is hope that the situation will end quickly and peacefully. -------------
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Posted By: Bob Greece
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 11:10
I hope you're wrong too. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/BobGreece/?chartstyle=basicrt10"> 
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Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 11:15
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Avestin, I wish you the best of luck; If I were religous I'd be praying for you and your unit.
I am very surprised that Olmert attacked Lebanon and not the Syrians. To be fair, Lebanon itself is terrified of Hizbullah, which controls southern Lebanon, not the Lebanese Army. Hizbullah acts in effect as a Syrian/Iranian force in Lebanon, doing there dirty work. Damascus is the onewho is declaring war, not Beirut. The last thing Israel needs is another Vietnam, which Lebanon was for 18 years.
On a personal note, I don't want to hear any criticism about Israel's response from the French or Scandinavian governments. Olmert is correct, this is an act of war, from Lebanon/Syria, and no other country would take it.
From Jpost.com
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Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 11:30
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Interestingly, it seems the kidnapped soldiers aren't even Zionists (Jews), they are Druze border patrols. Nice job, Hizbullah.
On a seperate note, the Druze are actually the coolest people ever. -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 11:32
I hope you're wrong too. I'm very sorry you're having to go through this. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 12:05
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God I hate Kofi Annan. Like usuall, he's made himself the first to "condemn Israel's actions without reservation."
Gimme a break. -------------
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 12:29
Well, their actions are pretty OTT, Nets, but I would agree that Annan's condemnation is far from balanced. So far, he has just said the 'soldiers should be released' I'm sure Hamas will listen to him and do as they're told..  I dont think...
In answer to your original question in this thread; Yes, it looks like the ME is going to war. Big time. Bad times. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: avestin
Date Posted: July 12 2006 at 12:29
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Right now I am at the mercy of those generals and leaders that sit behind their desks and shout Forward. And you know what happens to the Front Rank now... Thanks for your words of sympathy, fellas. ------------- http://hangingsounds.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow - Hanging Sounds http://www.progarchives.com/ProgRockShopping.asp" rel="nofollow - PA Index of prog music vendors |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: July 13 2006 at 00:13
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Update from jpost.com:
IAF bombs Beirut International Airport
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Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: July 13 2006 at 00:18
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I found this interesting: Mideast envoys have war of words in U.N. hallwayIsraeli: 'You're paying the price'; Palestinian: 'Leave us alone'
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: July 13 2006 at 00:33
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Has the US government even said aything at all on this damn war!? ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: July 13 2006 at 03:46
Yes. Condie Rice has been very vocal about it. Last thing I heard she said was 'What war?' 
The US has quiety urged restraint on both sides, but thats about it really. Condie is tied up with bringing Iran back to the UNSC, and the rest of the Bush admin is in despair over North Korea; apperently the NK/China talks have broken down, and the SK/NK talks are about to break down. What a great week it's been. You would expect the US to be trying its hardest to broker peace in the ME. I can only conclude there is a strategic reason they're not doing so. I may be wrong, but I believe that the current Israeli action would have been in the planning for along time, and is nothing to do with kidnapped soldiers and home made rockets. I believe this may be the back door route to dealing with Iran and/or Syria, both of whom back Hezbollah. It would not take much to pull either nation into the conflict. Israel may be trying to create a scenario where an attack on Iran maybe justified. The US maybe taking a back seat, if this is the case, as another US led conflict in the ME would not go down well with US media or voters. ..and now Israel have imposed an air and sea blockade of Lebanon. All this for a few captured soildiers? I dont think so. This was not the approach taken in the past, when they negotiated the release of one hostage and the remains of three soldiers from Hezbollah, in return for the release of Arab prisoners. Why would Israel risk taking the entire region to the brink over three hostages, and some fairly inconseqeuntial attacks from home made rockets? http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5175160.stm - A bridge too far?...and an airport... ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: NetsNJFan
Date Posted: July 13 2006 at 10:22
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I'm sorry Blacksword, Lebanon is responsible for this, just like witht he Palestinians, Hizbullah is a political party represented in their parliament. They can't say, "it's Hizbullah, not us"
Fairly inconsequential rocket attacks, Blacksword?:
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150885981850&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull - At least 90 wounded in rocket attacks; second woman dies
Israel doesn't have that martyr mentality so even two deaths are mourned.
I am really worried about this situation. I didn't see Lebanon in this picture at all.
Well to answer my own question, looks like a real war, not just border flare-ups. The ball is now in Syria's court, they may have to get involved for political reasons.
Blacksword, I don't think this was premeditated on Israel's part. The Israeli Governments official policy was disengagement from the West Bank (90% withdrawal), that is what the PM campaigned on, withdrawal. That plan is dead now because of the situation, and hes not happy about it. -------------
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Posted By: Zadok
Date Posted: July 13 2006 at 12:34
| Things are looking very serious indeed. I'm not sure that it was premeditated, but it does seem rather overdramatic on Israel's part... |
Posted By: dralan
Date Posted: July 13 2006 at 12:47
| Yea since this thread was originally posted it has now officially escalated into a war. I cant wait to see what the U.S. does, now that we have our hands full alll over the world and our troops are spread too thin as it is. Anyway if we are going to back Israel as we have commited ourselves years ago, why are we now content to sit back and say "Israel has a right to defend itself" while we are over in Iraq starting a civil war? |