I just got felony arrested, not kidding.

Edited by Negoba - April 29 2010 at 16:43

In NZ there has been a big call for Police to arm themselves in the wake of several officers and civilians being killed by gun related crime. Our Police now have tasers and stab-proof vests, but they are not always worn while on duty. Last year an officer was killed and three others wounded when a man shot them whilst on a routine drug house search. That shoutout occured less than a mile from my house, and scared the crap out of everyone here. I'm not saying that gun control is really a huge issue in NZ, we have farmers with guns, hunters (like me) with guns and that is usually about it. Recently though some gangs have begun to use them as well, and this has caused a reciprocal call for the Police to be armed. Personally, I have no issue with this because I'm a law abiding citizen who won't antagonise the Police nor threaten others with guns.

Everyone in this country has the right to defend themselves, not as explicitly outlined as in the American Constitution; but we seemingly have a flawed system of liberty and justice here. People should have the right to own guns, but only through proper liscensing and education systems, this must be countered by the fact that the Police can arm themselves too. It is absurd that a man can kill an unarmed Policeman with a gun, while the Police must respond with the AOS (Armed Offenders Squad) or in serious cases, the SAS.

(BTW: It is illegal in NZ to own a full auto rifle or handgun without a collector's (C) license, and NZ Police now are issued with an AR-15 in the boot of each squad car in the wake of that shooting I outlined earlier)


Edited by Any Colour You Like - April 29 2010 at 18:09

 

harmonium.ro, you might want to take a look at this too: http://www.iwmc.org/IWMC-Forum/JamesSwan/060129.htm

"No one, except criminals, wants crime and mayhem. But however well-intentioned anti-gun folks may be, research shows that gun bans are likely to get the opposite results of what they are intended to achieve, because legal gun owners by and large are not criminally inclined. And without self-defense, people become easy prey for human predators."

This study obviously applies more to the States and owning a gun is completely foreign to me and the countries I've lived in. However, bottom line is that banning guns doesn't solve the problems and there are a number of studies that prove it.

Epignosis wrote: harmonium.ro wrote: Epignosis wrote: But places in the US have banned guns, only to find that crime increases I can see that as a short term effect, yes. The outlaws feel more at ease and take advantage of the situation; some citizens feel deprived of their right and hide the guns, tension grows from all sides... But I can see no other solution to the problem. Investing money and trust in people's lives and it will profit... with lives saved. Build more prisons (as you said), finance raids, extreme control, surveillance, etc and don't expect results very soon. Epignosis wrote: If you are saying that Europe has lower crime without guns, then clearly the guns are not the variable. Why? Let me ask this (it's my roundabout way of answering "why"): What percentage of the homicides in the US are gang-related and/or involving hard drugs? According to this, 22.4% of federally incarcerated people and 32.6% of state incarcerated people reported to being under the influence of drugs during the time of their offense. According to this chart, 1.2% of all deaths in the US involve firearms (and this includes gang warfare, self-defensive shootings, and police shooting dangerous criminals). This article states that in one city, 86% of homicides were gang-related. In Europe, do countries have a problem with gangs like our large cities do?  What's the situation there?

Those are good and useful points. I don't know much about the situation in Europe (and I think there aren't over-all statistics). As an overview, what I can say is that:
- there are huge issues with ghetto/gang criminality in France, especially at the North of Paris and in the South of the country, where most of the African and Arab African immigration is located. The 2005 riots I mentioned are very similar to the famous 1992 Los Angeles riots, the ugliest American riots I have heard about, from the period with the worst crime rate ever in the history of the US. The damage done was worth four times greater in the US than in France, but the number of deaths was 22.5 times greater in the US than in France. I think that speaks volumes.
- I don't recall any of the British riots Wikipedia mentions, but it seems like there were some.
- there is a quite violent Muslim community in the Netherlands, whose most atrocious act was cutting the throat of Theo van Gogh on the street. He was the last descendant of Vincent van Gogh and had recently made a documentary showing how are women treated in the Dutch Muslim community.
- there are bloody problems in Germany between the immigrant Turkish and Kurd communities (a dispute with a historical tradition) and between the Neo Nazi gangs and those two communities but also against other immigrants as well (a few years ago this was accelerated by the leader of the Conservatives who run for PM office with the slogan "Foreigners, out!" This reminds me that the 80s and 90s were a good time for Neo-Nazis in England... How is that as of late?
- in Italy there is the older problem of the Mafia, and in recent years there is also the major problem of gypsy immigrants (mostly coming from Romania ). Their acts of violence and crime started a chain of response violence, including burning of immigrant villages and blood shedding.
- even in the peaceful Romania there are violent gangs in two of the major cities, armed with ninja swords... They came close to fighting a few times but they typically chickened out when facing each other Last year there was another case with a huge public audience, when a leading public figure sent his bodyguards to solve a gang issue... which they did by shooting a guy in the leg with a compressed air gun. The real problems in Romania are in villages with both gypsy and non-gypsy villagers... There were a few conflicts, the bloodiest was when a house was burnt with its owners inside.

That's basically what I know. So the phenomenon is here too, but doesn't have a homogenous coverage (never heard of anything like that in the Scandinavian countries indeed).

The problem is, this sort of crap happens here in the U.S., and it comes to seem reasonable to own a gun. 

Edited by jammun - April 29 2010 at 17:39

jammun wrote: The problem is, this sort of crap happens here in the U.S., and it comes to seem reasonable to own a gun.    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2011735142_homeinvasion30m.html   This seems to happen about once a week in my neck of the woods.

Yep, getting more common every day. 

I agree with one of the commenters at the end...."hope they catch these animals and hang them."  Of course that won't happen.  We'll give them training and therapy instead. 

himtroy wrote: I can't believe that someone is actually proclaiming banning guns as a good idea. Thats absolutely retarded as we don't live in a fascist country.

I agree.

Sorry for the lack of cultural sensitivity, but I'd rather not feel neutered.

harmonium.ro wrote: himtroy wrote: I can't believe that someone is actually proclaiming banning guns as a good idea. Thats absolutely retarded as we don't live in a fascist country.   Yours is the only out of place post, actually.

Edited by himtroy - April 29 2010 at 18:26

^^ I am talking to presumably reasonable people, willing to take some time off their daily routine and discuss various issue just for the sake/fun of it.  That's probably not the case for you. This is a discussion where people have exchanged only arguments before you joined. And speaking of "retarded", the only thing said here that would bring that in mind would be
- calling various civilized countries fascist because they ban guns
- calling the polite expression of opinion on a public discussion forum "invading one's life". If you can't stand the expression of opinions different to yours, please stay away of public forums.
Cheers.


Edited by harmonium.ro - April 29 2010 at 18:34