I just got felony arrested, not kidding.
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Topic: I just got felony arrested, not kidding.
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Subject: I just got felony arrested, not kidding.
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 12:31
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I just had to share this. A couple of weeks ago I thought my truck had been stolen and reported it. Turned out it had been towed off. I recovered it reported back to the police department that it was a mistake but got voice mail. So I'm running an errand on my lunch break today and all of a sudden I got pulled over and there were about six police cars and a motorcycle had descended on me. One car cut me off. An officer got out and pointed a gun at me yelling at me to put my hands up and turn off the truck. I was handcuffed and told get face down on the pavement in the middle of the road. When they checked my license and found that I was the registered owner, they let me go. File that under too much excitement for one day. In the end, I'm glad they were looking out for me and didn't hurt me. Yikes!!! ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Replies:
Posted By: Vompatti
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 12:35
I thought the American police are trained to shoot before checking the licence. 
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Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 12:35
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Wow, that must have been a bit crazy. At least it shows that when they're looking for stolen vehicles they can find them, but if I were you I wouldn't trust their voice mail anymore.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 12:36
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Always talk to a person!!!!!!
Sorry to hear about that glad nothing else happened. Good fro them they were doing their jobs.
------------- 
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 12:48
Well I put my hands up when I was told to. After being cuffed, I got face down on the pavement like I was told to. In the end no hard feelings. I had my first Nissan pickup stolen from my apartment back in 1989. I think those a_holes got away with it. I got it back. When it was recovered most of the front end parts had been removed. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Vompatti wrote:Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 13:07
No, that's just the rubbish some people continue to perpetuate. The reality is, most of the officers I've met, at least in this state, have always been polite and professional. Generally, if you follow the instructions you are given, and don't shoot your mouth off and argue with the police, you will have a good outcome. Most of the people who end up hurt by police precipitate the problems with their behavior. But you wouldn't know this by watching the media, who love to endlessly show the horrible video of the rare abuse cases to make that "the norm". Yes, there are a few bad apples and abuse occur on occasion. It is the perpetuation of the myth that this is the norm that just drives me insane. Because it is pure lying on the part of those who do it. Brian, this post is not directed at you in any way. I'm glad your situation turned out OK and you got your vehicle back. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 13:10
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The goood thing is that if your car had been stolen they would have recovered it, Chalk it down to experience and remember to thank them. |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 13:39
Glad you got your car back, Slarti Isn't pulling a gun on someone suspected of nicking a car just a LITTLE bit over the top? Or is it just this soft, Liberal Brit? ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 13:44
Not really, Steve. Coppers are shot and killed in the States, and anyone who would steel a car requires them to protect themselves rather than just risk it. Remember, these men and women have families too they'd like to see when they get home. They are not the monsters they are made out to be. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 13:55
It still baffles me when people lip off to police officers. I don't carry a gun, never will, and I'm not going to piss off someone who is armed, let alone one with the force of law on their side. When you're with an officer, you do what you're told. The time for arguing your point is later with your lawyer present.
An officer, who was sitting monitoring a busy commercial area about 2 blocks from my house was randomly shot point blank, probably a gang initiation. Couldn't pay me enough to do that job. There is alot of corruption to varying degrees in American police departments, but it's a thankless job. I have nothing but respect for someone willing to do that public service legitimately, and there are many. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 14:04
| I don't doubt it's a thankless job, but that doesn't excuse them abusing their powers. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 14:13
Right on, Jay. When we were robbed, the officers were so reassuring to us when we were clearly shaken, they went above and beyond the call. Other times when I've been pulled over I've been treated very courteously, I suppose because I return the same behaviour to the officer. My biggest problem is just the ridiculous misrepresentation of reality. The reality is that the bad apple cops are just a tiny minority of the overall cop population, but some people choose to flip this and portray all officers as bad people. Everyday, so many people interact with officers who do their jobs by the books, helping people, risking their lives to save people in some cases. Yet, we have these people in our society who choose to intentionally misrepresent the statistics to portray cops as monsters. Up is down, black is white, cops are evil, and criminals are to be coddled. These people would have the ultimate wake-up call if they ever get to see what society looks like without the rule of law. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 14:38
Thanks Jim - just caught this before signing off. Your explanation is thoroughly understood and very much appreciated. It puts a difficult situation, certainly from the officers perspective, in calm and measured terms, in a human fashion. Certainly, far better than some of the hang 'em & shoot 'em brigade who I think the media probably pay far too much attention to. ------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time! |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 14:38
Whether they were abusing their powers in this case is a hard call. Where "abuse" flows into "a little heavy handed" flows into "appropriate caution" is beyond my knowledge of the real data. Certainly, the rate of cops being shot in a particular geographical area has some bearing on where that line lies.
The fact that they backed off the moment they knew Slarti was the legitimate owner seems to point to "a little heavy handed" for me. But again, I don't know enough facts to make that call.
My job has enough tough calls without any guns being involved. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 14:40
No prob! Have a great night  ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 14:46
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Maybe he was arrested by Gene Hunt. 
By the way Brian. The first time is the hardest. You get used to it after awhile.
 ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 14:50
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That must have been quite a scare! I'm glad it turned out good in the end.
------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 15:00
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I've worked in several psych wards where security has to physically restrain people who are either a danger to themselves or others and may have limited control of what they're doing. Appropriate force is a very difficult thing to know and decide especially in the heat of the moment. Fortunately the most effective thing usually is a "show of force." In the psych ward, it means 3 guys about 300# or so walking in with a guy in a white coat (me). When it's clear who's going to win if there's a tussle, even most psych patients are smart enough not to start anything. As a result, most of these situations are resolved with no physical contact at all.
Though I again don't know, I suspect in Slarti's case it's the same kind of thing. Even if he had been a perpetrator, and was packing, it's unlikely he's going to do anything with that kind of show of force. A single cop politely asking to see his license? An armed criminal might take a chance. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 15:05
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Exactly Jay. They simply have to be prepared and ready. It's nothing personal. Sometimes even those who are not armed can be dangerous is abusing certain drugs or alcohol.
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 16:13
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I usually distrust of police officer's discretionary abilities... ------------- 
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 16:27
So if you encounter one on the street, make sure he / she feels safe and in control. Best chance for a safe encounter with both good cops doing their jobs and bad cops on a power trip. There's not much enjoyment in taking down someone who has already submitted. Basic Dog Whisperer type stuff. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Conor Fynes
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 16:41
Well, I'm not going to say this for the entire vancouver area, but the police in my district are corrupt. I request a copy of their papers for an incident, file a complaint for improper conduct and before you know it, the files on the police database have been modified and changed from the copy i have in order to make me look like a liar.
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Posted By: Mr ProgFreak
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 16:55
Nice ... grand theft auto, the reality version.
------------- https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike" rel="nofollow - https://tagyourmusic.org/users/Mike |
Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 17:06
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This is not really the same thing but it is funny (to me anyway). Stacy, my fiance, is one of those people who never gets pulled over or in trouble of any kind. So it was a surprise one day when we were coming home from Escondido that she got pulled over. The officer informed her that her vehicle registration had not been paid in a year and half. She was so flustered about this she handed the COP her credit card instead of her license. While the cop did not pull a gun her he did ask Have you been drinking Ma'am? I was sitting in the passenger seat trying not laugh too hard.
Turns out she hadn't changed her address with the Department of Motor Vehicles. (We had moved 3 times in 24 months) I still tease her about it.
-------------
"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: The Wrinkler
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 19:26
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Man that must have been a scary situation haha! Probably wondering "what the hell did i do?"
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 19:34
I'd recommend following their instructions and not giving them attitude. After all they have a job where people try to kill you for doing your job. The response was rather intense, but I wasn't hurt or abused. I think they might be out to bust a car theft ring and since I have been a victim of vehicle theft, they most certainly have my total support. The only gripe I have is that the county where it was towed to isn't close and they are the only ones who can clear me out of the system. I have finally quit shaking. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: himtroy
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 19:49
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I don't know what this garbage is about bad cops being the minority. I'm by no means one of those ignorant people who are going to say "we don't need cops" and absurd things like that, but in my area theres definitely a majority of a-hole cops. Not really protecting anybody, just out to get people in trouble because theres nothing to do. I also have friends who have been pretty mishandled by dirty cops, to the extent that the cops planted a pretty sizable quantity of drugs on one of them and claimed they were using it as well(proven false by drug test). They ended up getting caught having planted the drugs and got in absolutely no trouble. I could give a hundred stories just like that too.
And I don't live in a bad area, the cops are just scum bags. If I go downtown, thats where the real bad cops are
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 19:54
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I have never experienced a bad cop. Whenever I see one of those "are the police abusing their power" stories, I tend to give the police every benefit of the doubt, because they have an insanely dangerous and difficult job. Of course, corruption does happen and when there's evidence to back this up, I am the first to acknowledge it. Example: A video recently surfaced of some cops on horses attacking a guy for no reason. It's very clear from the tape that he was totally minding his own business. I still think cases like these are pretty rare, and we shouldn't be too quick to attack law enforcement, since they protect us while we sleep. ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 19:55
Very clever Starti, always try to be clear but not provoke them.
I was stopped some years ago in the mountains (excesive speed) when we had terrorism, the cops were extremely young and nervous (Even when I look like anything except a terrorist from Shining Path), but I was with two huge bodyguards as ugly and frightening as crooks..
The problem is that because my work on Volvo collecting debt warranties, I had to be armed, so I carried a Beretta 9 MM Parabellum (I had a special license).
So when they asked me to leave the car, I gave them my license and my gun license (Before they checked the car and found the gun) and told them to verify the central compartment (Behind the gear stick) for the weapon.
Probably if I hadn't warned them, I would had been arrested for 45 days without lawyer (Special terrorism law).
So never give a cop a reason to shoot or to arrest you as Starti said, they are humans and probably as frightened like you are, in my case they weretwo, in an empty highway and we were three guys wit weapons, two of which may have passed as crooks.......So in any risk, they would shoot first and ask later, and it's natural..
BTW: This works with criminals also, I was in a drugstore and three felons entered with guns, the clerks entered to a panic room and left us alone, one felon pointed his gun towards my mother, my girlfriend and me, the guy was a kid and clearly accelerated (probably drugs), So loud but calmed as ice (the terror is inside but you must not show it) told him, "Hey man, this is not our store, we don't care what you take, get whatever you want and we will sit on the floor, but please don't point your gun to me, nobody cares what you steal from this mother fu**ers who left us alone"."
It worked, the guy took his finger off the trigger with a smile. you have to show the calm they don't have.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 19:55
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Also in the not making it up area, I had Genesis Duke in the CD player. Anyone want to guess what song came on as I made my way back to the office? I don't know, sometimes maybe I'm having way too many weird musical coincidences. Primarily prog.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 20:05
You've had a tough time the past year or two, man. I'm glad you're all right. I'd really miss you if anything awful happened. You're so cool.  I hope everything from here on out is good news for you (okay, except in the area of politics  ).------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 20:28
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i believe it's important to have a good attitude. I suppose more crappy events could happen soon in my life but you have to keep hoping for the best or be sure you don't become a "suicide chump (Zappa)". I'm still trying to cope with these bad experiences life has tossed my way. In the end for me it all boils down to sh*t happens and may the sh*t that happens to you not be too unbearable. i didn't know I'd spark this much with thread with this. But the experience is true. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 20:38
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Good attitude Brian. I imagine that while this arrest was unpleasant, it was probably nothing compared to the suckage factor of the flood. I hope the year gets better for you, you deserve a respite from "sh*t happens" ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 20:45
Yes sir. Here's hoping for more  and less  for Brian. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 20:45
Well, it's hard to beat the flood for worst incident over the past 12 months, but damn, I've never had a policeman pointing a gun at me. He had a bullet resistant vest and was prepared to shoot me. Presumably in the head as that's where it was pointed. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 21:09
 Glad you're alright, Slarto!
 I have no problem with cops in this area.
I have never had anything but help from cops, or (deserved) traffic tickets.
One of my good dirt-riding buddies is a forensic cop, and my next door neighbour is a (recently) retired cop. Nice enough guys... if a little cynical / insensitive about some issues.
I respect the job, and cops are individuals (although a certain, shall we say 'brasher' personality type will generally be attracted to policing.)
There's a police instructor (retired cop) at the college whom I'd consider a friend, and one of my nicest, most solid-ever students did policing. He came back to see me recently in his new uniform -- great guy, who'll make a great cop. I joked with him that i get one automatic "get out of jail free" card from him if he ever nails me for speeding. My neighbour down the street (also my wife's boss) has a young cop son -- he's a real nice guy, too, and a credit to the local (municipal) police.
Just yesterday I was riding my dual sport on our (quiet) suburban city street, and I was standing up on the pegs as i rounded a turn (not speeding) -- whoops! Cop car coming!
 I thought "uh oh -- stunt riding" and sat down, but the cop just waved in a friendly manner as he passed.
(Maybe it was my neighbour's son... he had shades on.) In the 70s I'd have been pulled over for sure -- cops back then didn't even know dual sports bikes were street-legal. I often got pulled over for no reason but riding a motorcycle.That never happens these days (of course, today the average biker is 50 or more
), though a year or two ago the cop lights came on behind my bike, and I pulled over, wondering why it was happening (I was not speeding -- & generally don't, on paved roads, anyway). The youngish cop was a bike fan, and just wanted to know more about the bike, and whether I was selling it. Ha! We had a nice chat -- pretty small town (pop. 45,000) stuff. (BTW, my cop friend & neighbour assure me that standing up riding is not, by itself, illegal, as long as i am in control of the bike. Still, it attracts attention -- especially if the cop is not very bike-savvy.)
So cops and I are A-OK. I think most of them (Canadian, anyway) want to help people, and are on the side of good. They have a very tough, very essential job to do. Respect goes a long way in dealing with them.
I also worked 15 yrs in big & bigger city hospitals (St.John's & Toronto), & had lots of workplace conversations & dealing with cops. Some of them were pretty funny! It's different when you see things from their end of it, and you're on the same "team."
Finally, one of my best buds on this forum was / is "Danbo" (Dan) a great, generous, funny guy (and with great taste in music -- he introduced me & others here to LOADS of cool music) whom I definitely consider a true friend, and whom i'd really like to meet one day. He's in California.
Hi Dan, if you read this.
Miss you around here! Take care out there.  Sorry for the long post
 -- so don't read it, if you can't be bothered.... (At least I post pretty infrequently these days. This thread title interested me, though. Good one, Slart! I thought you finally might have been stiched up by republicans for stealing liberal cartoons.... ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: The Wrinkler
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 21:32
These are really interesting stories, but believe me, I would be too scared to want to do anything stupid!  |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 21:37
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I am glad the misunderstanding turned out ok. My brother is a cop. One hazard of the job is that they don't know in any particular situation who/what they are dealing with, so tend to err on the side of caution if they want to go home to their families in the evening. Some may consider their actions excessive, but imagine if you had a job where you had daily contact with the general public, and you never knew if they were friend or foe. It does cause a bit of paranoia. ------------- Can you tell me where we're headin'? Lincoln County Road or Armageddon. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 28 2010 at 22:30
Believe me, you never know how you will react. I know a guy who was driving with a broken light, so he was stopped and asked to leave the car, seems that the cop searched him for weapons, and the guy reacted fast while shouting the stupid cliche "You don't know who I am", he rapidly placed his hand inside his coat to take a card from the government party, the cop thought he was searching for a gun and shot him in the elbow (The cop was middle aged and experienced, a young one would probably had killed him), he was lucky...stupid but lucky. The same happens with crooks,my mother whop always tells everybody to allow the crook take anything because life is first, was assaulted in Biscayne Blvd Miami while my sister was buying gas, the guy grabbed her purse and she fought fiercely with him, when the man took the purse (well, she thought she had $ 5,000.00 and her passports) my sister and her followed the car with a good Samaritan, until they noticed that they gained nothing and stopped following them, because if they reached the car, probably would be killed.. Luckily my sister had changed purse with my Mom and the money plus documents were not in the stolen, purse except five million soles (In those days it was like 50 dollars due to the inflation ). But the point is that three normal persons , my friend, my mother and my sister reacted stupidly and placed their lives in risk. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 00:28
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Look, there are good cops and bad cops. Just like there are good people and bad people. I'm sure for every bad cop we hear about or encounter, there's one soldiering away in anonymity. However, the problem is that the police force should be more exclusive, thus making them have a better ratio than a random crowd sampling. However, we don't pay them enough for that to happen. Additionally, the job has certain parameters that attract a certain personality set (for simplicity sake lets call them the bully set.), so I think psych evals should also be mandatory on enlistment to ensure that the cop isn't just a thug who wants the law on his side. And while I get compliance is the main thing in dealing with a cop, despite their personal risk, it doesn't give them license to blow away anyone who does something slightly irregular. I probably am too hard on the cops usually, as is the media, but it doesn't mean they don't need fixing. ------------- 
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Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 00:31
Paranoia is still an irrational emotion, despite its reasons. If they are really worried that much, they should just quit. At the end of the day, I couldn't look at myself in the mirror if my code of conduct jeopardized numerous innocents just to potentially save my hide. -------------
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Posted By: TheGazzardian
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 00:57
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Slart - I am glad to hear that you are okay and that you recovered your truck fine. Having a gun pointed at you must have been frightening! However, had that happened to me, I would find myself laughing about it in no time. Six cop cars had to pull me over just to find out that I was driving my own truck! I would laugh as I told the story to my friends. I'm just one guy! What did they think I would do? At the very least, you gained an entertaining story from this.
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Posted By: AtomicCrimsonRush
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 01:26
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Interesting thread. i never have this sort of trouble. i was pulled up for speeding a few years back. No guns involved though........ Must be an american thing. ------------- 
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Posted By: Garion81
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 01:26
Safety is number one issue no matter what job you do. If you think you can do it better go do it. I really am in awe of these guys restraint for the most part in dealing with things you and I never have to deal with or see. They truly see and deal with the worst of humanity and they do it because the large majority of them believe what they do is important and serves the greater good. I know there are not so nice people doing the job but you know what name me one job that doesn't have that element? People also make mistakes are they any different? In the end criminals kill way more innocent people than cops do in fact it is a no brainer to think ratio difference would be wide. We are talking about very few incidences. There is no way to eliminate all of them just like there is no way you can eliminate crime. I would rather take my chances with a cop than a criminal. If you have nothing to hide then let them do their job and you will be okay just like Slarty did.
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"What are you going to do when that damn thing rusts?" |
Posted By: Marty McFly
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 01:35
And we in Czech Republic are ridiculing our cops that they are too afraid to do anything. Yikes indeed, this is quite terrible if such things can happen. I heard that USA police can be tough ' n ' rough, but this is too much. Maybe effective, but brutal. By truck you mean something like that:
or that ?
------------- There's a point where "avant-garde" and "experimental" becomes "terrible" and "pointless," -Andyman1125 on Lulu  Even my |
Posted By: The Wrinkler
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 02:03
| ^ Haha! First truck would be a sweet ride! VROOOOOOOM!!! |
Posted By: seventhsojourn
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 04:00
If two cops say you did something (even though you didn't ), this is prima facie evidence for a case.
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Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 04:28
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the great think about the USA is indeed the fact that the cops don't take any sh1t. Sorry that Slarti got a bit of a scare but apart from those awful racially motivated incidents, which are isolated cases, these guys put their ' you know whats' on the block daily to manage millions of nutters out there ( and that applies to worldwide too) ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 07:02
Yes I agree with you, I also have a strong issue with excessive authority, but let's not forget we're talking about a country where any regular guy can carry a weapon |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 07:19
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^ Exactly Alex, if we defang the cops, we can enjoy the excessive authority of the street gangs, like in Mexican border towns where the armed drug gangs rule the citizens and police. Thousands have been murdered. The cops are often outmatched in firepower. I'll take our cops and their occasional incidents. There is no utopia. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 07:22
| ^ Actually I think banning weapons completely would be the obvious solution. It works, you know. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 07:51
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It doesn't work, unfortunately. At least here. Whenever you have weapons bans, only the law abiding citizens are kept from weapons. The criminals still find their weapons on the black market. What you would end up with in the USA is an armed criminal population, and defenseless regular population. Perhaps in Europe where the culture is different and the weapons are not widespread already, it works nicely. It wouldn't work here unless and until they could stop the black market and get these existing weapons off the street. Even if you were to shut down manufacturers worldwide, I suspect the criminals in the US would find a way to manufacture their own . ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 08:01
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When the government tells you you can't own a gun, that's the time to be damn sure you have one.
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 08:04
| I agree it would take longer because the weapons are already there, and I don't think that addressing the market would be the solution, but addressing the "customers". I think that people would, in the end, get used to the idea by knowing that one would have to serve a few years in jail if caught with a gun. Anyway, it's the only solution to get out of this vicious circle. And it only seems that it doesn't work because no one wants to relate to the experience of other countries. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 08:10
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It doesn't work because it isn't practical. A few years in jail for being caught with a gun? Lordie, we'd have to build a few hundred more prisons then. Let me put it this way: If a man with a gun and an evil intent enters my home, I don't want to have to protect my family with a kitchen knife, okay? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 08:14
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^ That attitude is the exact reason which doesn't allow you to exist this situation. It's called a vicious circle. People have guns and may sometime threaten me... I'll get a gun too, that will solve the problem.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 08:23
And I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. I think more people should have guns. Imagine how far these murderers would get in a school shooting if at least the faculty were packing heat and trained in the use of firearms. Instead of just blocking the door so his students could escape the massacre of Seung-Hui Cho, http://www.vtnews.vt.edu/story.php?relyear=2010&itemno=322 - Professor and hero Liviu Librescu might have saved himself as well as his class. In fact, I would wager that there wouldn't have been a massacre in the first place. How often do people go in and shoot up a police station like they do schools? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 08:34
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^ It's obvious that police men are the most affected by the general use of guns in the States, that was the (agreed) starting point of my discussion with Jim. Anyway, it's clear that you've made up your mind and you're not really interested in different views... The more guns, the merrier  ... I'll rest my case and let the discussion get back to its initial course. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 08:35
We will continue this discussion now or I will bust a cap in yo ass.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 08:54
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 08:56
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Tell us about the European experience with guns Alex. I mean, I don't know the details. Are there ZERO guns allowed in society, except for police? Is hunting allowed? Can criminals buy guns from other countries and do they use them in crimes and robberies there, in France? Do you have gangs? Are they weaponless? ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 09:18
And "slash your granny's face up given half a chance"? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 09:21
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------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: rushfan4
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 09:23
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First off, that was both a scary and funny occurrence Brian. I'm not sure how I would handle that situation, but I suspect that at the very least a change of undershorts would be in order afterwards. In regards to the no tolerance for weapons, I agree with it in theory, but it is a case of Pandora's Box. The guns/weapons are already out of the box, and it would be damn near impossible to put them back in. It isn't perfect but at least things have improved with background checks and waiting periods so that you can't just run up to the store and buy a gun while you are pissed off, go out, and use it. Unfortunately, as was mentioned previously is that only outlaws would have guns if they were banned. Personally, I am not a hunter and I have an aversion to guns so it wouldn't bother me from that standpoint if they were banned. I'm not as paranoid as many Americans thinking that if guns were banned the government through the police and military would then show up at my door and take my possessions, but certainly that was the case in the days of Robin Hood, and it wouldn't surprise me if it doesn't still happen in the tribal regions of Pakistan and such. On the other hand, Jesse James and Billy The Kid could ride again...
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 10:18
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It was very intense, but I needed to share and vent. Interesting how it turns into a discussion of weapons. I should mention that my wife has a crossbow I gave her. She's built up the upper arm strength to cock it. Again, not kidding. I don't know if she would use it to defend my music and instrument collection though.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Failcore
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 10:35
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Guns for me are more of a political thing than anything else. It would worry me if the only ones who had guns were the gov't. How the heck could you resist then, if they just wanted to do whatever the poo they wanted? And violent crime has been steadily decreasing in the US since the early 80s. Read any statistic anywhere. It's true. The media coverage just makes violent crime seem rampant. But then again, I've never gone for the 'father knows best' form of gov't, regardless of what party is in charge. And this is coming from a guy whose uni just got shot up by a crazy prof.
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Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 11:06
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I don't have much to add to what Finnforest and Epignosis have already said, but I would like to point out that when they banned guns in Washington DC the violent crime rate went through the roof. Last year they repealed the ban, and it's too soon to see any new statistics, but I fully expect the crime rate to go down. An armed society is a polite society. That having been said, I think guns are scary and I have no desire to own one, unless of course the feds show signs of trying to ban them. Then I'll definitely get one. -------------
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 11:30
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Alex- If that bunch of questions below sounded like I was jumping on you, or if they sounded snarky, I just want to say they were sincerely NOT intended to. I was genuinely curious about the conditions on the streets where you are. But posed as they were they may have come across as hostile interrogation, certainly wasn't my intent. Sorry if it felt that way! Brian- Also apologies if we've hijacked your thread. Perhaps we should start another thread about the gun and crime issues. It's just that your personal story has multitudes of issues that can spring forth from it.....are these issues considered "on topic" or not? I'm not sure. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 11:49
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The original purpose for the right to bear arms was indeed so the populace could defend itself or even overthrow the government if the government began using violence to subdue the population.
There are bans on the kind of weapons that would allow any meaningful resistance to the powers that be. The intentions of the founding fathers have already been blocked. (It would never have occurred to them to limit hunting which was actually part of regular subsistence for many in those days).
Ideas on guns reflect the "Every Man for Himself" attitude in American culture. Culture is a system organism that has its own life, it's not like you can change it even if the majority of people voted to do so. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: elder08
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 14:00
 ------------- "There are people who say we [Pink Floyd] should make room for younger bands. That's not the way it works. They can make their own room."- David Gilmour |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 14:24
Our villains, bandits and criminals are not any less violent than their US counterparts, however they are just less likely to be armed, and even less likely to want to use them if they are - they carry guns to intimidate, not to defend themselves - I'm sure someone will pull-up loads of statistics to show that violent crime in the UK is on the increase, but the percentage of gun (and knife) related killings and injuries are still considerably lower than in the USA.
You can buy guns over here, perfectly legally - all you need is a legitimate need, a licence and somewhere safe to store it. It has to be a hunting or sports weapon and it cannot be a handgun, automatic or semi-automatic rifle ... no one will believe you want an AK-47 to keep the rodent population down or to bag a brace of pheasants for your lunch. It is an offence to carry it within 50 feet of a public thoroughfare (including public footpaths and bridleways), and it is an offence to carry it loaded - this includes air-rifles and BB-guns ... and "loaded" also means having a loaded magazine even if it is detached from the firearm.
I grew up with guns but haven't owned one for 30+ years because I lost the desire to kill things and just shooting at a target seemed pointless.
As Scott says - in the US Pandora's Box has been opened and you can't put the lid back on, it's different over here.
------------- What? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 14:35
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I should say the hijacking of this thread is totally OK as long as you don't try to drive it to Cuba. Because you will likely drown. Unless you're in Cuba when you do... And then drowning is still a possibility. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 14:37
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Interesting Dean. But it begs the question....if you can legally purchase "hunting guns" then obviously *some* people have the option of purchasing these to protect their kids if some predator does come through the door at night. That's not really total "gun control" then. I think most Americans are willing to go that far, eliminating some guns like assault rifles so long as they have the ability to protect their family as our cops get further transformed into social workers rather than crime fighters. Some Americans will accept no gun control, and the NRA is there to back them, but really I think *most* would consider it. It's just one of those issues few politicians have any gut for. The real problem is getting handguns out of the hands of teenagers. That's it. Forget assault rifles and hunting altogether. The problem in the US is handguns in the hands of youth. I don't know how you eliminate that when any serious, increased police actions towards gangbangers result in cries of racism from the left. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 15:15
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When I was a boy, my dad and my friends' dads would take us shooting, teach us gun safety, and give us pointers. I remember the first time my dad let me fire a shotgun. I had a giant bruise on my shoulder for over a week. None of us has ever been involved in violence- not even a fight, as far as I know (and I'd say there were about 12 of us boys who stuck together). I realize that's small data, but there it is. Now if you really want to reduce death and crime among our young people, take away their cars. Which raises the basic question with respect to guns: Where is the line between liberty and public safety? Lowering the speed limit to 10 miles per hour would save thousands of lives, after all.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 15:16
Really? Is that why the US is by far http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States#Homicide - the best place to get killed in the civilized world ? I think this is an interesting discussion Jim, don't worry. I agree with Jay when saying it's very much a cultural thing. Otherwise I can't explain such a resistance to reason. I really can't think one can reasonably deny a direct relation between the generalized use of guns in the US and the horrendous homicide rate (see link above). To answer your first question Jim, a normal European experience is a gun-less experience by definition. Most people here never get to hold a gun or see one from close range in their life. Otherwise it's a normal world, where violence exists just like anywhere else. You can encounter it, but you normally don't need to fear for your life. I have no direct experience, so I can only say that hunting is allowed everywhere around, and there probably are other means to get guns (but I couldn't really tell). Gun-related crimes do happens once in a while, but most of the killings that have made an impact on me (via the mass-media) are usually stabbings (like in various fights or thefts I have heard about, football hooligans riots in Istanbul, Rome, Sicily or London). Myself I have felt safe or very safe everywhere I have been in Europe. I have been to Barcelona, famous for being the city with the most pick-pockets in the world, and I saw a theft from a supermarket in less than an hour since our arrival, but in less than 60 seconds a police car was chasing the thieves. Also, I know the English resent all the surveillance but it made me feel safe in London (where otherwise I would not have liked to walk at late hours). Knowing that your walk on a regular sidewalk is probably recorded on a camera is comforting. Especially if you know that if someone attacks you, a police team will be there in a few minutes without having to call them. And I did see the police in action once. I've been to Greece, where radical anarchist/communist groups thrive. Once in a while such a group is found to have (military) arms hidden. Still, the famous http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Greek_riots - 2008 Greek street riots , the worst riots since the anti-dictatorship riots from 1974, counted no killings except for the one which triggered the events. The much more powerful http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_civil_unrest_in_France - French riots from 2005 only led to two victims (one died because of the smoke when trying to contain a fire, the other was killed). Myself I plan never to go see those Parisian suburbs (more ghettos if you ask me)... |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 15:25
Well, you would have to sneak out of bed, unlock the gun-cabinet and load the weapon first, and hope you got there before the bandit did - in doing so you will be prosecuted for assault with a deadly weapon. There are one or two notable cases over the past 20 or so years where people have "defended" themselves in this way and predictable tabloid media outcry when they were carted off to jail with stiffer sentences than their assailants. No system is perfect, and as I said, it's different here - instances like this are too small to even be a statistic - so when they do happen they are a national news event. ------------- What? |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 15:30
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^ That same thing happened a couple of years ago in Romania, amplified by the fact that the house owner was a celebrity. The perpetrator didn't die. The tabloids lived out of the complications of this story for more than a year!
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 15:37
^ Wow, that is a huge cultural difference then. Here, if a predator comes through your window at night, there's a good chance he's gonna get shot. And I have no sympathy for him. And I'd hate to the see the parent in the home prosecuted. Often, not always, the person in the home will be let off charges by the authorities for "self defense." Overwhelmingly, the community will back the land owner, not the criminal. Thank God it's still like that here. See we have a growing problem of what are called "home invasions." Lovely youth break into your home, tie up your family, perhaps rape or kill some of them, trash the home, and take what they want. They will always be armed and ready to shoot you if you resist. We can't turn back the clock on that stuff. The gangs have the guns, so long as they do, US citizens will want the option of returning fire when their home is entered. I'm not a violent person, but if someone came through my window at night, and didn't stop after being yelled a warning, I'd drop em like a sack of potatoes. We've just had too many instances of good people being murdered by these thug youth for no reason, too many woman and children killed. That is why you see this anger in Robert and I about crime. I suppose if we had grown up with your cultural experience and less gun violence, we may see it your way. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 15:40
I don't dispute the data, but I question what it means, because I agree with you and Jay about it being a cultural thing. How significant is the gun in "urban culture?" It is a status symbol for many inner-city youth- I know this a former teacher for young men kicked out of school. Looking at the data from the source you provided, we see what thellama73 has brought up: a whopping 35.8 homicides per 100,000 people in DC- almost seven times the national average. This data was taken from 2004, when the DC gun ban was in effect. Fast-forward to District of Colombia vs Heller (decided mid-2008): The year after this Supreme Court case was decided, http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/mar/02/learning-from-the-dc-handgun-ban/ - DC's murder rate dropped 25% . As this source goes onto say, other gun bans in the US only lead to a rise in violent crimes. I take this as evidence that guns aren't the issue here. Urban culture (or lack of culture) is. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 15:47
| I don't think there's a cultural difference between the US and Europe. We've got our immigration, poverty, ghettos, social unrest etc. Probably if we had the guns too our crime figures would also be much higher. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 15:52
But places in the US have banned guns, only to find that crime increases. If you are saying that Europe has lower crime without guns, then clearly the guns are not the variable. We used to have a federal ban on alcohol...I'll let Wikipedia tell you how that went down. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 15:52
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^^Well, it's an interesting discussion to be sure. As is Robert's query about Liberty versus safety. That question is probably another thread though as it could go in many directions. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 15:59
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^ well that's the whole point about "it's different here" - you banned something that was the norm - we only banned something we never had. Of course crime stats will increase if you ban guns - it's like giving the criminals a free lunch - if we suddenly allowed people to defend themselves with guns our gun-crime stats would go through the roof because the crims would have to arm themselves. Guns are the pivotal factor. ------------- What? |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 16:02
I can see that as a short term effect, yes. The outlaws feel more at ease and take advantage of the situation; some citizens feel deprived of their right and hide the guns, tension grows from all sides... But I can see no other solution to the problem. Investing money and trust in people's lives and it will profit... with lives saved. Build more prisons (as you said), finance raids, extreme control, surveillance, etc and don't expect results very soon.
Why? |
Posted By: Tarquin Underspoon
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 16:06
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I would like to interrupt this debate to inform everyone that police in general give me serious heebie-jeebies.
You may now resume contructive discussion. ------------- "WAAAAAAOOOOOUGH! WAAAAAAAUUUUGGHHHH!! WAAAAAOOOO!!!" -The Great Gig in the Sky |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 16:10
Really? You prefer a gangbanger in your face? I love coppers. Park one in front of my house 24/7 and I'd be happy as a clam. I'd bake cookies for the man (or woman). ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 16:11
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Gangsters are much better. Their language is much more colourful!
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 16:13
Yes, but they might eat all your doughnuts. By all means have fun with this thread. I'm just glad the copper who pointed a gun at my face didn't have an itchy trigger finger. Otherwise I'd either be dead now or in the hospital with severe brain damage.
Say hello to my little friend? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Dalezilla
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 16:16
| Guns don't kill. People do. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 16:17
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True Brian, but, criminals put far more good people like you in caskets than police officers do.
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Dalezilla
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 16:17
Banning guns doesn't work for the same reason banning alcohol didn't work and banning drugs isn't working. |
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 16:19
And they don't need guns to do it, just a truck full of fertilizer does the trick. |
Posted By: UndercoverBoy
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 16:22
People with guns, that is.
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 16:26
The only thing common to those three is the fact that they were banned. By your logic, - anyone who has ever bought an overpriced, illegal bottle of whiskey to satisfy a minor vice would also buy a killing device just because one comes after another (?) - dumping the ban on heroin would lower the consume etc |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 16:29
I am taking bets whether this thread overdoes the social security thread (the chances are at 2.5 right now) or the atheist thread (at 20 right now) 
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Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 16:35
Who doesn't love a good heated discussion |
Posted By: Dalezilla
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 16:36
You missed my point. The people who want guns, alcohol, drugs, will get them anyway, whether there is a ban or not. Historically bans have increased the consumption of the banned good. Edit: oh and to your last remark. Probably yes. Check this out: http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1893946,00.html |
Posted By: Gamemako
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 16:37
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Knowing APD, I'm surprised they didn't just arrest you for sh*ts and giggles. You got off lucky, chief.
------------- Hail Eris! 
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 16:39
I didn't miss your point, I put it to test in various situations. It doesn't stand... |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 29 2010 at 16:40
Let me ask this (it's my roundabout way of answering "why"): What percentage of the homicides in the US are gang-related and/or involving hard drugs? http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/publications/factsht/crime/index.html - According to this , 22.4% of federally incarcerated people and 32.6% of state incarcerated people reported to being under the influence of drugs during the time of their offense. According to http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/death_stats.html - this chart , 1.2% of all deaths in the US involve firearms (and this includes gang warfare, self-defensive shootings, and police shooting dangerous criminals). This http://www.bakersfield.com/news/local/x1216783395/86-percent-of-city-killings-gang-related-police-plead-for-help - article states that in one city, 86% of homicides were gang-related. In Europe, do countries have a problem with gangs like our large cities do? What's the situation there?  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |