Thoughts on my taste?

dfle3 wrote: Discussion without the attitude would be appreciated...if I think that your taste in music sucks, I won't try and pretend it's because you're not smart...coz, you know, Trespass works incredibly well as a soporofic.

Dean wrote: JJLehto wrote: dfle3 wrote: Snow Dog wrote: Can this t**t f**k off now? Right...you're not trolling at all, are you? You're quite the decent, respectful one, aren't you? Actually he's not. That is Snow Dog in 100% honest form. Trust me That's Ian being an Ian - British sarcastic humour doesn't travel well outside our borders, though Australian sarcastic humour is very similar.

I am quite well versed in British humor, not that I have a mastery of it...but I'm not sure anyone can!

dfle3 wrote: Ah, so prog is "deeper"...not really amiably pleasant easy listening music then? If you say so. Classical music not immediately memorable first listen? Really? Ludwig Van's 5th and 9th not immediately memorable? Ok. I'll take your word for it.  But I would have thought they were regarded as "classics". And other Beethoven works aren't considered classics because...they're just not that memorable?

Have you ever listened to more than the famous parts of Beethovens 5th or 9th? The latter lasts for about 70 minutes and its a classic because its a complete masterpiece. Not because the finale is perfect for actionmovie trailers. And even if the third movement isn't immediately memorable, I consider it a more rewarding listen than the immediately memorable Ob-La-Di Ob-La-Da. I've no problem being a snob in that sense. Do you actually question the fact that some music is not made to simply be easy on the ears? I think Eric Dolphy is a greater artist than Kenny G, too. Both are supposed to be jazz, but only the latter has any chance on getting airplay outside of a specialized jazzradio-station. So Dolphy tried and failed, while Kenny G. succeeded?

dfle3 wrote: Saperlipopette! writes: "Maybe you'll grow tired of Genesis naive orchestral pop-debut" ...that would be your opinion, yeah? When King Crimson sings "I talk to the wind"...that is some kind of super advanced perspective, right? Sort of like he occupies the same intellectual space as Prince Charles, yeah? Charles talks to the trees, yeah? Sequel for King Crimson? Talking to trees? And you have done absolutely no analysis on why you think my comments are funny for some albums in my list...in one of them I ask a philosophical question...whilst you...make snobbish comments about Genesis' debut...as if you are some sort of being from a higher plane...would we all be able to attain your lofty heights!

I was trying to behave here, but you're being a complete ass back. You don't come across as someone with potential to understand any other approach to music than your own. I understand your point of view very well, and think its extremely limiting. You let other people with a 100% commercial interest decide for you how great or memorable music is. Its very difficult not to ridicule.

Ok, Genesis debut was made when they were still in their teens. They hadn't developed an identity of their own yet, and yes the lyrics are less sophisticated than on Supper's Ready (the long track on Foxtrot. Its on your list, but I'm not sure if you actually heard it). I haven't mentioned King Crimson or I Talk to the Wind, so why compare to another band instead of themselves some years later? Although no favorite, I do think I Talk To The Wind has has stronger lyrics than any song on FGTR, so feel free to laugh your head off.

Here's a few reasons your comments are funny: With your logic Frank Sinatra, Edit Piaf... just about anyone... should qualify as prog because they also have orchestral arrangements. And Genesis wouldn't have been labelled as prog if they had only made easy listening albums (like your favorite). Bands change approach over the years. Genesis is not prog because of their debut or We Can't Dance, but because of some of their albums made inbetween. I can't really believe you haven't already understood that. Besides, nobody questions the influence of neither VU or the Beatles has had on prog.

Btw: When did you last hear Beethoven's 9th on Australian FM?

BBtw: Is Dan Brown a better author than Marcel Proust? More people read his books.


Edited by Saperlipopette! - April 12 2011 at 05:56

dfle3 wrote: Okay...back again... Firstly, this thread was asking about comments on my list...my list was initially intended as my ratings of prog albums but I pretty much decided to add art rock type albums to my list right away. If you want to comment on my list great...just don't prattle on about it not being 'real' prog...I've already said that my list is broader than that...just comment on the stuff that you think IS prog...I dunno, if you can't agree with my scores for albums, just maybe comment on whether you think my order of albums within or between groups is good or bad or whatever. Try not to get hung up over one album...I know you'll feel the temptation to. Also curious, if I've expressed doubt in my own list as to how prog an album is, give your opinion...would you count the album in my list as prog or whatnot or not? As for the 'spirit' of this forum...I'll engage with it on your own terms here... TheGazzardian...is your list of You Tubes kind of like "Ten prog songs to change your life"? How much value should I place on it? I mean, since this forum has a lot of grand poo-bars, I'd be wanting such a list to come from the Grande Poo-Bar, yeah?  BUT...Polo says...quothe... " Those are all awful songs, Gazzardian". So, by the conduct/philosophy of this forum, you must be trolling, yeah? Or maybe it's Polo? Honestly, I don't know WHO to believe!! Can you maybe get your people to get the Grande Poo-Bar to give their top 10 prog tracks?

dfle3 wrote:   VanVanVan says: "I feel like the point that most people here are trying to make is that prog is not necessarily meant to be memorable after the first listen. It's not meant to have immediately memorizable hooks, if it did it would be pop." ...righto...but "The court of the Crimson King" IS memorable first listen with immediately memorisable hooks...and it's poppy. So...not prog then? Refugee's line holds? I mean, it's a good album, despite the title track? And Dark Side Of The Moon...not real prog? More from VanVanVan: "That's the same reason prog doesn't get radio play; it's not about the immediate gratification, it's about deeper enjoyment. One wouldn't expect a classical composition to be immediately memorable after the first listen; prog is the same way." Ah, so prog is "deeper"...not really amiably pleasant easy listening music then? If you say so. Classical music not immediately memorable first listen? Really? Ludwig Van's 5th and 9th not immediately memorable? Ok. I'll take your word for it.  But I would have thought they were regarded as "classics". And other Beethoven works aren't considered classics because...they're just not that memorable?

dfle3 wrote: When I've got more time I'll respond to the small number of intelligent posts here (really, I have no time for people who think anyone who disagrees with them is a troll...such an idiotic viewpoint)...but I'll just respond to one of the less intelligent comments here...

Edited by The Dark Elf - April 12 2011 at 16:09

These are the things that greatly bug me...I'll note two kinds of poster on this forum...with examples:

Type 1:

Henry Plainview

Their working assumption:

To disagree with them is to be a troll.

Maybe on this forum that counts as sophisticated analysis. To me it is just plain stupid. I've already commented on my take of people who use the term "troll"...but the view expressed by Henry is meant to signal that this person's opinion is like, you know, THE most important opinion in the world. To me, it has the opposite effect...you think disagreeing with you makes someone a troll? Okay...bye.

Type 2:

Saperlipopette!

An annoying quote of theirs:

" Maybe you'll grow tired of Genesis naive orchestral pop-debut, and discover that Supper's Ready has more to offer in the long run? ".

They describe Genesis' debut as "naive". What's the opposite of "naive"? I'd say "sophisticated". Ok, so they're positioning themselves as "sophisticated". I wonder if it's a tragedy that Genesis never got the benefit of their 'sophisticated' views...e.g. think how GREAT their debut could have been if the Type 2 could have uttered pearls of wisdom like "Pete...less naive, yeah?", "Tony...can you tone down the naivety?", "Mike...go for sophisticated, yeah?".

Do any serious critics say that Genesis' debut was "naive"? It's such an odd expression...like  the type 2 is some sort of 10th dan Thetan waxing lyrical on humans. Maybe the type 2 believes that Bee Gees are 'naive', therefore anyone playing like them must be too?

Here's the clincher...another quote:

"Who knows, if you gave one of your progalbums a third and even a fourth spin, maybe your favorite track would change from Flaming to Interstallar Overdrive? "...

Their working assumption:

You are naive. I am sophisticated. Once you become a 10th dan Thetan like me, you too will see how naive your tastes in music are and you will come to agree with me.

Can you see how might find such views funny?

Another assumption of this forum:

"Hit" is a genre of music.

E.g. "Oh my God! The album has a hit on it! Hits suck, man!".

Yes, I know EXACTLY what you are talking about...sheesh...I just know EXACTLY what you mean by "hit"...something to be avoided at all costs! Obviously there's no difference in style between a hit Eminem song and a hit Metallica song...I mean, they're the SAME genre!

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Dean

When I highlight text to quote on your site I've found that a whole slab of OTHER text gets included and I have to edit what is on the reply box. Other sites aren't such a pain...you don't have to deal with that kind of stuff...you highlight the text you want, it appears, no dramas. Or you can just add the mark up or whatever it is called and do it yourself...I'd rather see that option that a whole slab of emoticons I have no intention of using.

And if by deleting "Kind of blue" from your list of top 100 prog albums is liable to kill the internet, then maybe the site admins are doing something wrong?

re you're comment that:

"I've never thought of using Trespass as a chill out album - I guess The Knife would spoil that soporific moment for me somewhat."

One song - the final song - makes you think that the album rocks? What can I say? I've listened to the album and falled asleep during it...maybe on this forum that counts as a bad reason to call it "soporific"?

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TheGazzardian

I wasn't fighting you...just pointing out the contradiction...if I'm trolling for suggesting that Genesis' debut is their best album, then the fact that someone thinks your ten songs are rubbish should count for something on this forum. I made no comment on your list. Didn't ask for a list, and would have been more impressed if it was compiled with attention to my taste in music, as expressed in my RYM list.  Which is another bug of mine...this thread isn't about me being "schooled" into the "right" prog to like...though many have taken it upon themselves to make it about that...like Type 2. Yeah, I just luuuurve people implying that my taste in music is naive and that their opinion is the last word in the 'right' prog to like.

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re support for Snow Dog...

Yes, I'm afraid I'm sooo naive as to totally miss their English drollery. Perhaps once I attain 10th dan Thetan-hood I can better appreciate their comments?

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The Dark Elf

It wasn't me who brought up the topic of prog albums being critical and commercial successes. I never vouched for Rolling Stone's opinion being superior to Henry Plainview's opinion...I hold them equal regard. Rolling Stone is regarded by some as a "bible" for contemporary music. So, I just used to illustrate that by one 'bible' of music, prog rock is noticeable for it's manifest absence. I then commented on prog albums not being big sellers. That's two planks of Henry's OWN view contested.

Of course, if Henry totally disregards Rolling Stone's view, then am I suppose to infer that when they say that prog albums are critically praised, he means by such publications as "Prog" magazine? "Prog!" magazine"? "Prog! Prog! Prog!" magazine? Is that meant to carry more weight than Rolling Stone's opinion?

As for my RYM list...you didn't bother to read my note at the top of the list...the bit about art rock and experimental music being included. Do you want me to congratulate you on noticing that not all the albums on it are prog? Good luck with that.

Again, like so many people on this forum you make soooo many assumptions when you say:

"Again, I consider Rolling Stone magazine to be a critical travesty and a literal  joke, but since you obviously read it and consider it worthy of mention, I thought I would share the punch line."

As for my Dead Zone comment...well, I personally don't rate albums like "Let it bleed" at all, and don't find Zeppelin albums other that IV to be particularly great...they're alright. But hey, you're view is the right view yeah? You're a 10th dan Thetan because you like prog, yeah? I really don't think that liking prog makes you smart. And listening to prog will not make you smart. I get the feeling that people on this board think the opposite.

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I have noticed some replies sort of like Snow Dog's comment that:

"Until Abba came along nothing of merit was done in the seventies. Abba is his guide. Let it be ours!"


Please see my comment about Type 1 and Type 2 people on this forum.

And it also smacks of snobbery..."Ooh ABBA! Gosh...they are sooo awful! EVERYBODY knows that!".

I'm guessing that some artists who even people on this forum admire are on record as admiring ABBA. And I seriously doubt that people who bring them up disparigingly have even heard their albums...kind of like the faux pas you'd get stuck into me about, yeah?

If it wasn't for prog, there wouldn't be punk, or grunge.

I have two things to say:
1. ABBA is awesome.
2. How can you not think that Trout Mask Replica has loads of instantly memorable classics that should be on FM radio all the time? I just don't understand people sometimes.

dfle3 wrote: These are the things that greatly bug me...I'll note two kinds of poster on this forum...with examples: Type 2: Saperlipopette! An annoying quote of theirs: " Maybe you'll grow tired of Genesis naive orchestral pop-debut, and discover that Supper's Ready has more to offer in the long run? ". They describe Genesis' debut as "naive". What's the opposite of "naive"? I'd say "sophisticated". Ok, so they're positioning themselves as "sophisticated". I wonder if it's a tragedy that Genesis never got the benefit of their 'sophisticated' views...e.g. think how GREAT their debut could have been if the Type 2 could have uttered pearls of wisdom like "Pete...less naive, yeah?", "Tony...can you tone down the naivety?", "Mike...go for sophisticated, yeah?". Do any serious critics say that Genesis' debut was "naive"? It's such an odd expression...like  the type 2 is some sort of 10th dan Thetan waxing lyrical on humans. Maybe the type 2 believes that Bee Gees are 'naive', therefore anyone playing like them must be too? Here's the clincher...another quote: "Who knows, if you gave one of your progalbums a third and even a fourth spin, maybe your favorite track would change from Flaming to Interstallar Overdrive? "... Their working assumption: You are naive. I am sophisticated. Once you become a 10th dan Thetan like me, you too will see how naive your tastes in music are and you will come to agree with me. Can you see how might find such views funny?

It ain't so bad to be a little naive with potential. Its much worse to be plain stupid and full of sh*t.

dfle3 wrote: Another assumption of this forum: "Hit" is a genre of music.

Like most of your views: only in your head.

Btw: No one thought you were a troll because they were disagreeing with your opinions (Well, lack of knowledge doesn't really qualify as opinion, but you know what I mean). They/we just couldn't believe you were being serious.

Let's try and bring this back to the original topic. My thoughts on your taste in music? I don't agree with a lot of it, but ... it's yours. You will like what you like, and that's all that really matters. Music is about enjoying it, not worrying what others think, listening to the "right" music (which is a fruitless effort anyways as what is right to some will be wrong to others) or any other such noise. Just listen to what you like.

Cheers.


Edited by TheGazzardian - April 15 2011 at 12:59