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What genre is prog's foe ?

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Poll Question: What music genre is the antipole of our beloved prog ?
Poll Choice Votes Poll Statistics
30 [37.97%]
2 [2.53%]
1 [1.27%]
27 [34.18%]
0 [0.00%]
7 [8.86%]
1 [1.27%]
2 [2.53%]
1 [1.27%]
0 [0.00%]
3 [3.80%]
5 [6.33%]
You can not vote in this poll

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Soul Dreamer View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Soul Dreamer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 21 2009 at 21:59
Originally posted by progrules progrules wrote:

Originally posted by Soul Dreamer Soul Dreamer wrote:

Punk isn't the antithesis of prog. Punk may have started as a counter-movement, but more against the disco sound than against prog. Bands like the Stranglers quickly evolved into something very comparable to prog, while the punk movement soon gave way to  "new wave" which is very prog-related....
Nowadays IMO the antithesis of prog is rap/hip-hop... (I don't think it was in the '80)... Rap/hip-hop has become the lowest demenour of commercial "music" (I wouldn't even call it music, especially if it hits the charts...)
 
This would just about have been my answer, completely agree. Is this coincidence ?
What country were you from, Jan ? Wink


hahahaBig smile

maybe we just have a lot in common in taste of music....Wink
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toaster Mantis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2009 at 02:57
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Punk and metal probably have much more of it since I don't remember progressive rock having anywhere as much in the way of "scene politics".


As I don't frequent Metal or Punk sites, you may be correct but ain't this principally because Prog does not have an easily identifiable uniform, look or attitude to conform to ?


Yeah, progressive rock just has "scenes", metal and punk have well-defined subcultural identities associated with those scenes, but in both cases the scenes still come before the fashion and attitude of which they're an outgrowth. I've also noticed that progressive rock fans welcome mainstream acceptance whereas in metal, punk and probably also goth rock circles there's a tendency to see mainstream crossover success as pearls before swine.


Edited by Toaster Mantis - November 22 2009 at 02:58
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2009 at 07:31
Originally posted by Soul Dreamer Soul Dreamer wrote:

Originally posted by JD JD wrote:

Originally posted by Soul Dreamer Soul Dreamer wrote:

Bands like the Stranglers quickly evolved into something very comparable to prog, while the punk movement soon gave way to  "new wave" which is very prog-related....



How do you consider the Stranglers Punk?? Clearly they were at the forefront of what was to become the Electro-Pop movement. Just because they were on the music scene during the Punk movement doesn't mean they are a Punk band. Or is this one of those cases where Punk and Prog actually intersect in so much as each has a zillion sub-genres? I always put bands like the Sex Pistols, The Clash, Iggy and the Stooges and the Ramones as Punk. Bands like The Strangles, OMD, New Order, Our Daugther's Wedding or Depeche Mode are at the far edge of Punk IMHO.


Rattus Norvegicus and No More Heroes were "real" punk albums by The Stranglers, after that they moved on....



Admittedly I'm not familiar with all the Stranglers recordings. I base my opinion on "Gospel According to MIB", Feline and Norfolk Coast, which I have. I was aggressively a prog snob in the eighties. In my early 20's and only wanting to fill my head with "challenging" music. I was more likely to listen to Frank Zappa or Harry Partch than any "80's" bands. Only in the last 15 years have I been going back and filling in the blanks trying to give most of what i previously ignored at least one listen.
I'll happily concede the point.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ExittheLemming Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2009 at 07:56
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Punk and metal probably have much more of it since I don't remember progressive rock having anywhere as much in the way of "scene politics".


As I don't frequent Metal or Punk sites, you may be correct but ain't this principally because Prog does not have an easily identifiable uniform, look or attitude to conform to ?


Yeah, progressive rock just has "scenes", metal and punk have well-defined subcultural identities associated with those scenes, but in both cases the scenes still come before the fashion and attitude of which they're an outgrowth. I've also noticed that progressive rock fans welcome mainstream acceptance whereas in metal, punk and probably also goth rock circles there's a tendency to see mainstream crossover success as pearls before swine.


Interesting summary certainly. I don't think you really believe that mainstream success for either a punk or prog band would be viewed by either 'scene' as pearls before swine. Even a casual glance through the Collins Genesis, Asia or Buggles Yes threads over the years would be sufficient to convince anyone that what flows unopposed into the mainstream is viewed with contempt by the hard-liners as a very diluted or polluted version of the genre ? (I'm not defending the anti-populist brigade here BTW)
Do you really mean those bands that don't pander to being radio-friendly but are still mainstream successful ? (erm...I can't think of any proggers that fit the bill, apart from say Floyd ?)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote synthguy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2009 at 10:23
Originally posted by manofmystery manofmystery wrote:

prog has been it's own worst enemy since the end of the 70s

Wearing feelings on our faces when our faces took a rest...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Toaster Mantis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2009 at 11:11
Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I don't think you really believe that mainstream success for either a punk or prog band would be viewed by either 'scene' as pearls before swine. Even a casual glance through the Collins Genesis, Asia or Buggles Yes threads over the years would be sufficient to convince anyone that what flows unopposed into the mainstream is viewed with contempt by the hard-liners as a very diluted or polluted version of the genre ? (I'm not defending the anti-populist brigade here BTW)

Do you really mean those bands that don't pander to being radio-friendly but are still mainstream successful ?


Not for progressive rock at least, however in metal there's quite a bit of distrust towards not only bands that deliberately go for mainstream crossover success but towards when more "authentic" bands get popular outside the metal subculture. The antipathy isn't towards the artists but fans in question who don't have enough loyalty/familiarity with the subculture and are hence perceived at not appreciating metal for the right reasons. This thread on a metal forum would be a very good example of what I'm talking about.

I am very certain there's similar concerns in the punk subculture even though I don't have first-hand experience of it like I have with metal. As for my opinion, on one hand I can definitely understand where such concerns are coming from but on the other hand I also get the impression that even within subcultures it's usually very few of their actual members who actually live up to whatever high-falutin' ideals the movements in question have. It's pretty much an universal constant, has always been so and applies to all of 'em from Goths to neo-beatniks. Alternately depressing or hilarious that it's still so 41 years after Frank Zappa commenced castigating the hippies for his... Stern Smile

(hell, it goes beyond subcultures to much looser-defined "fan communities", see a certain Prog Blog of mine)


Edited by Toaster Mantis - November 23 2009 at 15:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dean Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2009 at 12:23
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

Originally posted by ExittheLemming ExittheLemming wrote:

I don't think you really believe that mainstream success for either a punk or prog band would be viewed by either 'scene' as pearls before swine. Even a casual glance through the Collins Genesis, Asia or Buggles Yes threads over the years would be sufficient to convince anyone that what flows unopposed into the mainstream is viewed with contempt by the hard-liners as a very diluted or polluted version of the genre ? (I'm not defending the anti-populist brigade here BTW)[

Do you really mean those bands that don't pander to being radio-friendly but are still mainstream successful


Not for progressive rock at least, however in metal there's quite a bit of distrust towards not only bands that deliberately go for mainstream crossover success but towards when more "authentic" bands get popular outside the metal subculture. The antipathy isn't towards the artists but fans in question who don't have enough loyalty/familiarity with the subculture and are hence perceived at not appreciating metal for the right reasons. This thread on a metal forum would be a very good example of what I'm talking about.

I am very certain there's similar concerns in the punk subculture even though I don't have first-hand experience of it like I have with metal. As for my opinion, on one hand I can definitely understand where such concerns are coming from but on the other hand I also get the impression that even within subcultures it's usually very few of their actual members who actually live up to whatever high-falutin' ideals the movements in question have. It's pretty much an universal constant, has always been so and applies to all of 'em from Goths to neo-beatniks. Alternately depressing or hilarious that it's still so 41 years after Frank Zappa commenced castigating the hippies for his... Stern Smile

(hell, it goes beyond subcultures to much looser-defined "fan communities", see a certain Prog Blog of mine)
I think your "pearls before swine" comment has led to some misunderstanding of what you meant - usually the derision of the tru-fan is towards the artist for "dumbing-down" (selling-out) rather than for them putting their "high-quality" product before an audience that does not appreciate it. Your comment about the metal fans being derisive of casual fans of one band rather than of the genre as a whole is true for most genres - as the "Monsters" poll has demonstrated.
 
From the goth subculture there is a degree of pride involved when one of their faithful gains some popular appeal - Goth itself came out of a popular genres of music (New Romantic & Post Punk) and at it's peak had a measure mainstream success - most modern Goth bands pine for those halcyon days. Any subculture suspicion is reserved for outsiders who attempt popularity by hijacking the genre, eg Marylin Manson or by people attracted to the image but not the music - but even they are eventually accepted by the subculture.
What?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Easy Money Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: November 22 2009 at 13:02
This is an interesting conversation, I was thinking of various subcultures I was familiar with over the years and bands that recieved scorn from those subcultures:

late 80s California hardcore - Green Day

mid-70s funk - KC and the Sunshine Band

late 80s hip-hop - Vanilla Ice, MC Hammer

mid 70s prog - Kansas, ELO. Rush, Alan Parsons, even Pink Floyd for some

mid 90s electronic - Moby

early 80s west coast punk - X (first west coast punk band to sign to a major label, a major sin)

60s folk - Dylan

late 60s jazz - Miles

late 60s blues/rock - Led Zep, Grand Funk Railroad

Edited by Easy Money - November 22 2009 at 14:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Logan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 09:14
This was, I think, an interesting topic which I saw being looked at in the Active Users list (I like that list for seeing old topics I had forgotten about or never seen). I still think that Prog is commonly the hybridization of genres and so due to its incorporative qualities other enemies are not the enemy to Prog, but instead like with the Borg, to be assimilated (which if drawing out that analogy would make a Prog an enemy to the genres, but I don’t think the genres care). I also think that Prog as a genre can be the enemy of progressive rock, as once we accept Prog as a genre we can start imposing limits on it which limits how far rock can progress from canonical expectations and thereby Prog may not be a truly progressive genre in the sense of always changing, moving forward, adapting and being an open world. Gorp, which is my term for backwards Prog (regressive rock) could also be seen as the enemy if it were an accepted genre. Retro Rock is a common label, but actually I think you can be both retro and progressive. I think one can look to and borrow from the past while also moving towards the future, and in fact I think that is important. Prog to my mind tends to be more innovative than originative.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 09:43
Never thought music was a competition. There is no foe in any musical genre.

Never knew tear-jerkers was a musical genre.

Edited by Grumpyprogfan - March 17 2022 at 09:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 09:46
I chose Punk even before I saw the options. Punk Rock lasted all of two years but Prog Rock lives on forever. Smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Grumpyprogfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 09:51
Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I chose Punk even before I saw the options. Punk Rock lasted all of two years but Prog Rock lives on forever. Smile
Punk lasted more than two years and still lives on. Ever heard of Green Day?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Psychedelic Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 10:51
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Originally posted by Psychedelic Paul Psychedelic Paul wrote:

I chose Punk even before I saw the options. Punk Rock lasted all of two years but Prog Rock lives on forever. Smile
Punk lasted more than two years and still lives on. Ever heard of Green Day?

Punk Rock only lasted about two years in England before it fizzled out like a damp squib. Never mind the *******, Johnny Rotten of the Sex Pistols is now reduced to selling Country Life butter to scrape a living. Tongue

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sean Trane Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 11:46
let's just stay above the moral melee
prefer the sink to the gutter
keep our sand-castle virtues
content to be a doer
as well as a thinker,
prefer lifting our pen
rather than un-sheath our sword
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote someone_else Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 15:07
Originally posted by Grumpyprogfan Grumpyprogfan wrote:

Never thought music was a competition. There is no foe in any musical genre.

Never knew tear-jerkers was a musical genre.

It is, at least in the Netherlands, where the OP comes from. We knew it as smartlap, named after a sheet with the lyrics that was displayed to give the audience a chance to sing a long. Nowadays the term levenslied (song of life) is more often used, referencing to simple songs that appeal to primitive feelings, held in esteem mostly by people with a lower intellectual level. It is not hard to understand why this genre was added to the list.


Edited by someone_else - March 17 2022 at 15:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 15:51

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JD Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 16:53
^Perfect. Clap
I was listening to Goody Two Shoes today.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hrychu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 17:30
EDM?
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— Ernest Vong
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote siLLy puPPy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 17:30
^ ha! i listened to that after this one. Adam Ant or & The Ants had a very unique sound. Love that horn section!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Heart of the Matter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: March 17 2022 at 18:56
Rap. It's more personal dislike than anything what makes me vote this way, I confess. And proggers can be also prone to tears every once in a while.
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