Socialism.. does anyone have a clue.

I think we are brainwashed into believing that the only viable system is Capitalism because that is the status quo.
Be careful of confusing modern Socialism with Communism or Marxism.

I'm a member of the British Labour Party (Socialist) but anyone accusing me of being a Communist best have a very big stick with which to protect themselves with...

Many European countries operate just fine and dandy with a progressive form of Socialist Govt in place. I think social reform and welfare are fine things that any self-respecting civilised country would want to aspire to, It's just the paying for it that is the problem. I favour progressive taxation with an obligation to pay. Large companies or self-employed should all pay their share without being taxed into oblivion.

As an Atheist I find it INCREDIBLE that any Christian could possibly not favour a socialist based ideology (with any of its perceived weaknesses) over Capitalism/Right Wing/Republican ideologies. Your Christ would not approve of you voting against social welfare.

LinusW wrote: In Sweden you're given a government "allowance" each month for studying at university. A third of it is simply given to you, paid by the tax payers, while two thirds are loaned money, which you have to pay back (with quite low interest) once you've graduated and started working. Naturally, you have to finish the courses, naturally you have pass the courses. You're only allowed to get this money for 7 years of studying, which covers a master programme + 2 years extra. The point is of course to give everyone who wants to study, the chance to study, no matter how wealthy your family is. Just to shift the discussion from CEOs. What do you think about this?

Don, I don't know if the system in Sweden is the same as in Finland, but if it is, you forgot to say that you have to pass a test in order to be admitted to study at university (something that rarely happens in Italy). If you fail, you're sure not to be given anything.

NaturalScience wrote: micky wrote: Slartibartfast wrote: Epignosis wrote: If our education system is any indication of the government's managerial skills, then they should stay out of business. The quality of our educational system is entirely dependent on the wealth of your neighborhood. hahahhah   and if the government even tried to intrude on that uniquely local govenment responsibility....  oh how the people on the right would cry socialism huh?  They already do!  The Department of Education has something like a $70 billion budget!

oh hardly....  if that was anything more than a drop in the bucket as to what the real costs of education and who manages education... the local level.. county city state...we wouldn't have the inequality of education ...at the public level we do.  You know that Pat...  your quality of education depends on where you live... hat is the result of local taxes.. which in turn pay for education.

Tony R wrote: As an Atheist I find it INCREDIBLE that any Christian could possibly not favour a socialist based ideology (with any of its perceived weaknesses) over Capitalism/Right Wing/Republican ideologies. Your Christ would not approve of you voting against social welfare.

Tony R wrote: Be careful of confusing modern Socialism with Communism or Marxism.

NaturalScience wrote: micky wrote: Slartibartfast wrote: Epignosis wrote: If our education system is any indication of the government's managerial skills, then they should stay out of business. The quality of our educational system is entirely dependent on the wealth of your neighborhood. hahahhah   and if the government even tried to intrude on that uniquely local govenment responsibility....  oh how the people on the right would cry socialism huh?  They already do!  The Department of Education has something like a $70 billion budget! No Child Left Behind?  That's a massive federal "intrusion" on school systems.

Teaching here is for sh*t anyway (I know).

As an English teacher I have to have:

-A 4 year degree
-A teaching certificate (which requires 3 passing grades on tests WE have to pay for)
-300 training hours of ESOL (teaching students who don't speak English as a primary language- that's another can of worms I won't go into right now)
-6 completed courses in teaching reading
-ON TOP OF various unpaid assigned trainings throughout the year

All this, including actually teaching, creating lesson plans, grading papers / assignments, attending staff meetings, parental meetings, proctoring tests, and completing paperwork as it arises.

All this for $36,000.

And make no mistake- 90% of the training is worthless.  Seriously.  Only about ten percent of the trainings I've ever attended have been helpful (and many other teachers wholeheartedly agree with me on this).  Many of the trainings are conducted by people who haven't stood in the front of a classroom in 30 years.

LinusW wrote: In Sweden you're given a government paid "salary"  each month for studying at university. A third of it is simply given to you, paid by the tax payers, while two thirds are loaned money, which you have to pay back (with quite low interest) once you've graduated and started working. Naturally, you have to finish the courses, naturally you have pass the courses. You're only allowed to get this money for 7 years of studying, which covers a master programme + 2 years extra. The point is of course to give everyone who wants to study, the chance to study, no matter how wealthy your family is. Just to shift the discussion from CEOs. What do you think about this?

Wish we had that system. We did once. Then Blair (IIRC) broke it.

One rather neat point I've heard on that one is that those studying and getting degrees are going to be earning more and thus providing more taxable income anyway... the lack of proper government subsidy in that area isn't doing them any favours.

LinusW wrote: Epignosis wrote: LinusW wrote: In Sweden you're given a government "allowance" each month for studying at university. A third of it is simply given to you, paid by the tax payers, while two thirds are loaned money, which you have to pay back (with quite low interest) once you've graduated and started working. Naturally, you have to finish the courses, naturally you have pass the courses. You're only allowed to get this money for 7 years of studying, which covers a master programme + 2 years extra. The point is of course to give everyone who wants to study, the chance to study, no matter how wealthy your family is. Just to shift the discussion from CEOs. What do you think about this? The US has a similar system (but is tailored more for those who have less).  It's called FAFSA, The Pell Grant, and Sallie Mae (for loans). Is it effective?

I would say that for the most part, it's a good system (maybe too much unnecessary paperwork), and helps the less fortunate obtain a college education (the loans are low interest also, and don't have to be repaid until after graduation).

Slartibartfast wrote: OK, now I'm completely confused.

Despots can take over any social system if the conditions are right.