Socialism.. does anyone have a clue.
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Topic: Socialism.. does anyone have a clue.
Posted By: micky
Subject: Socialism.. does anyone have a clue.
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 10:43
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just what the hell Socialism really is hahhaha just was reading on ESPN how Congress is going after the BCS for anti-trust violations... and we think PA's is great.. check their message boards... some real winners of the educational system there (probably SEC school grads hahha) people crying about how this country is going down the Socialist path hahhah. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Replies:
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 10:49
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What's funny is that what I see with the Obama administration re: banks is that they're doing everything except the "socialist" solution: nationalization/receivership, which actually might have the best chance of success. In any event, instead of going down that path they pursue half-ass solutions such as this public/private toxic asset scheme, which is only in the end a massive ripoff to the taxpayer. |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 10:56
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Socialism is a grand idea that has failed to work in some of its most extreme attempts, but is part of virtually every government that has ever been. The options are complete despotism or complete libertarianism. It's pretty difficult to have a civilized society without an educated populace. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 10:59
| For the record, I don't believe socialism (read: central planning and state ownership of industry) works and am against it, but we are nowhere even close to it in this country. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:01
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Socialism. It's what's in my avatar. lol. ------------- 
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:05
Shroom-eating, turtle-killing, plumbers?  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
HughesJB4 wrote:Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:06
Invest in a set of contact lenses sir:P -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:08
 nowhere close to it... what we are doing.. hopefully... is turning away from an unfettered free-market system. Like I said in the health care thread... everything should not be a commodity to be bought and sold... there should.. and can exist institutions. ...industries whose soul purpose is not making a profit... but making a difference. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:08
I get the joke, Harry.  Plus I checked the name of the image just to be sure.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Alberto Muñoz
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:23
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Socialism. mmm .... mmm.....
mmm....
 Well Socialism is not what many goverments in the past have been, at least they derive as a totalitarian states.
One thing is that you say that socialism is what you might think it is and other is what really is.
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Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:29
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Heh, before the US could even get remotely close to socialist, you can
rely on ultra right wing underground madman to fix things up. But yeah, not entirely sure about this US situation, I have not been reading up enough on politics/economics at all lately (too much time spent reading about music related things  ).Well, in Australia anyway, you get a fair number of people fed up with privately owned infrastructure like the rail network in Melbourne, which has trained that get frequently canceled and delayed, and lots of people want it handed back to the government instead, since apparently they could run it better. A lot of people think handing back the telecommunication system in Aus back to the government should happen to, but I just think trying to make that transition back to a Government run thing would just result in a major f**k up somewhere along the line, but that's me. Mixed economies have been around for ages and despite people wanting this or that change, if someone just throws it out there that tomorrow suddenly things are gonna be more socialist, poo hits the fan because people are chicken sh*t of change. The economy could collapse several times over in the US and I bet people would still flinch at the idea of a socialist state. It's change, which isn't good for people that get comfortable and complacent. -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:30
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^^ and of course we have the current 3rd option.. the boogyman used to scare the ignorant who get told what to think by some in the media. What it is... or even what it might be isn't even thought of... it is a political by-word thrown around to oppose any plan to fix what is broken that doesn't involve letting the whole goddamn thing fall apart and pick up the pieces afterward. a mess by the way.. that their profit at all cost, free-market policies created... that makes the pill that much bitter for them to swallow... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:44
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Wealth redistribution is a beautiful thing. Bring it on, Obama. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:47
Fancy term for "stealing" if you ask me. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:49
| Ah yes. Opinions. I have many. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:49
Yeah, bring it on  ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:50
damn right... call it stealing... from the thieves.... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:51
When workers don't get paid fairly who's doing the stealing there? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:52
What's fair? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:53
You're right. Businesses should pay $200 an hour no matter what the worker does or how much education / experience they have.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:54
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yes... trickle down economics.... that sort of got proven to be the crime of the century.....and I sure as hell don't have a degree in economics but know that if a man gets paid millions upon millions... he KEEPS those millions.. Buys a bigger boat... bigger home... the american worker is ...always has been the loser in that theory.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:55
What's fair? Here's what's not fair: CEO-to-worker pay imbalance grows
See http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_archive_snapshotsarchive -
Snapshots Archive . http://www.stateofworkingamerica.org/"> This week's Snapshot previews data to be presented as part of the forthcoming http://www.stateofworkingamerica.org/ - The State of Working America 2006/07 . Snapshot for June 21, 2006. CEO-to-worker pay imbalance grows by http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/economist#mishel - Lawrence Mishel In 2005, the average CEO in the United States earned 262 times the pay of the average worker, the second-highest level of this ratio in the 40 years for which there are data. In 2005, a CEO earned more in one workday (there are 260 in a year) than an average worker earned in 52 weeks. The 1980s, 1990s, and 2000s have been prosperous times for top U.S. executives, especially relative to other wage earners. This can be seen by examining the increased divergence between CEO pay and an average worker’s pay over time, as shown in Figure A. In 1965, U.S. CEOs in major companies earned 24 times more than an average worker; this ratio grew to 35 in 1978 and to 71 in 1989. The ratio http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/webfeatures_snapshots_archive_03311999 - surged in the 1990s and hit 300 at the end of the recovery in 2000. The fall in the stock market reduced CEO stock-related pay (e.g., options) causing CEO pay to moderate to 143 times that of an average worker in 2002. Since then, however, CEO pay has exploded and by 2005 the average CEO was paid $10,982,000 a year, or 262 times that of an average worker ($41,861).
*Data note: http://www.epi.org - http://www.epi.org |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:56
Can I assume by this you want to lower top earners salaries, not raise low earners wages? Doesn't really answer my question. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:56
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Hi,
Weird that you are calling that another "ism" ... it's hardly socialism (in its classic definition) ... and neither is it anything else in your book ... obviously!
BTW ... if that's your artistry to get attention, let me assure you that your stage minutes won't even add up to 10 minutes ... maybe 5 ... and someone will just turn around and leave ... and not even throw a tomato at you as a sign that they saw you!
If stuff like this bothers you ... have a cigar ... oooppppssss sorry ... have a lesson ... go sit through Pasolini's film 1900 .... then I think that you will come here adn delete your post ...
I'm betting a nickel now!
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:57
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Some people believe in hoarding all the marbles. Others believe in sharing the marbles. That'll never be settled.
I'm certainly not for giving checks to people for sitting on the couch watching TV.
What I am for is taking care of old/sick people who have played by all the rules their whole life. Getting sick should not mean going bankrupt....ever.
And yes, the top 5% can pick up a hefty share and still have enough left for another Rolex.
All I have to say. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:59
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You know, you could get an MBA, work your way up and become a CEO and make millions. Nobody's stopping you. Why complain about CEOs? What about NBA players? They make more than average workers. Bottom line is this- businesses exist to make a profit. Take away that incentive, and business will stop coming into existence. Meaning "the poor workers" will have no wage to complain about at all. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 11:59
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:02
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Also, there's this: I would bet my last beer that if we redistributed all wealth, you will have poverty again in a very short time. Some people don't know how to manage wealth. Give everyone a small fortune, and some will have a bigger fortune, some will stagnate, and some will be begging for dimes drinking King Cobra. Back to square one. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:04
| To head off discussion going off in extremis, I'll assume that those in favor of "wealth distribution" mean, as Jim said, that everyone get some basic entitlements (healthcare, pension, etc.) and a progressive tax structure akin to what we have now, perhaps just tweaking the numbers. I don't think anyone is advocating something foolish like "everyone gets paid the same". But please correct me if I'm wrong. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:04
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I don't view CEOs being fairly compensated and workers being fairly compensated as opposing ideas. No one's talking about taking away the profit motive. And it should be remembered that without the workers to do the work and buy the stuff that is produced the CEO's would all be out of a job.
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:06
Yep. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:06
What's fair? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:08
The Maximum Wage: A Common-Sense Prescription for Revitalizing America - By Taxing the Very Rich (Paperback)by http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_1?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Sam%20Pizzigati - Sam Pizzigati (Author), http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/ref=ntt_athr_dp_sr_2?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Howard%20Saunders - Howard Saunders (Illustrator)
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:08
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Also something to be mindful of: Some business owners will gladly take their business to another country with a lower tax rate (a common objection to the flat tax system).
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Chris S
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:10
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^ Redistribution of wealth happened in Africa ( is happening) largely due to the fallout of greed from colonisation. Europe deserted for the most part once the profits of doom (sic) were loud and clear.
Now it is happening in reverse. Take farms and land away and give to the uneducated to overgraze the land and create deserts......
tis a fine line......as for USA, those CEO's need a social " Thief' running riot up their rear end! The taxpayer deserves to get that payback justice at the very least. ------------- ...As I venture through the slipstream, between the viaducts in your dreams...[/COLOR] |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:11
exactly... re-distribution of wealth... is exactly what it means.... paying the CEO's what they are worth (less).. and the American worker what they are worth (more). If anyone here thinks that the current balance is fair... 262 times the average worker.... you are truly beyond help and discussion here in this thread. Without the worker..the the main producer.. and also the main consumer.. the whole thing falls apart. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:12
That is correct, for me. I'm talking about a system akin to Scandinavia, where people believe taking care of each other is moral and last time I checked, they still have plenty of rich people in Denmark, France, Sweden, et al...
I'd like to see a system where people who are willing to work and save money will be taken care of in their older years, *without worry* I'm so tired of seeing old people choose between medicine and food, of seeing people get cancer and have to worry about losing their job because of chemo side effects. Having to organize bake sales to help cover their 50000$ in medical bills that their "insurance" doesn't want to pay for.
That is so immoral for our good God-fearing country. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:16
But that's the question: Who says what they are worth? As it is now, companies and workers both have a role in deciding what they get paid. Workers compete with each other to obtain jobs (by pursuing education, experience, etc), and companies compete to earn a profit. If a company wants to pay me minimum wage and I believe that based on my skills and experience, I should be paid more, I'll look elsewhere. And if a company wants to pay their CEO millions a year, that's for the company to decide. It's their money that they (presumably) legally made. If I want to make millions, I can either work my way up, or take the risk (yes- business owners took a huge risk) of starting my own business. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:21
I lived in Finland for close to six years, and what I can tell you is that yes, there are rich people, but they are nowhere as ostentatious of their wealth as they are here in the US, or even in my native country of Italy. As a matter of fact, showing off wealth is considered to be very bad form in the Scandinavian countries. I had several friends who were quite well-off, but lived very sensibly - comfortably, but without excess. And hopefully no one will bring up the suicide rate in those countries, which has nothing to do with the socio-political system at all. As to your second point, I cannot deny being worried for my future. Even with insurance, an unexpected illness could wipe out half or more of my savings... Hopefully, things will change in one way or the other. I can understand not wanting to pay benefits for lazy people (who, in my humble opinion, will always exist), but not adding insult to injury in the presence of a serious illness. |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:21
Mick, I believe the correct number is something like 400+ times the average worker. If that's moral, so be it as long as we can tax em Swedish style.  ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:22
the answer is easy.... the govenment does... the free market has failed in that respect... it has allowed those CEO saleries to skyrocket.. and worker wages to barely account for inflation... free market as you lay out is a failure... a de-regulated free market... and has led this country to the brink of finanical disaster... the government thorugh regulation... can help make things.. not equal.. that is rediculous... but more equitable. That is the role of government... to govern... to manage ....to protect this country... and this.. make NO misake... is a direct threat to the well being of this country. Without workers producing... and spending.. the machine breaks down... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:23
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Posted By: Jim Garten
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:24
"From each according to their means, to each according to their needs" 
I need a beer and a cigarette... any offers? 
------------- 
Jon Lord 1941 - 2012 |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:25
Sure, Mr. Garten, just stand in this line for a couple of hours... Ooo, I'm sorry, looks like we're out of beer. Maybe come back tomorrow? |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:27
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:27
I do like that 90% tax Congress was going to throw at AIG execs... who here wants to talk about stealing... if I could get millions IN BONUS'S for running a company into the ground and taking an economy with it... yeah Robert.. sign me up for that sh*t ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:28
He can't come back tomorrow. He's having another cookie sale to try and pay for his next medical treatment.....so that the Prez from Phizer can pocket another million. ------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:30
If our education system is any indication of the government's managerial skills, then they should stay out of business. And suppose (in theory), the government decides CEOs should be paid more? Think about it- workers can't fuel politician's campaigns. I would bet that a CEO salary cap would never happen mainly because the heads of major businesses have deep enough pockets to keep that from happening. Also there this: The more we raise the minimum wage, the greater the expense businesses incur, and they inevitably pass those expenses onto consumers. Thus cost of living increases for nearly everyone. How do we combat that? By raising worker wages. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:30
exactly...... every red word of it. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:33
The quality of our educational system is entirely dependent on the wealth of your neighborhood. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:33
At some point you have to recognize the power of "Stop bitching and work harder to get what you want." It's a fairly proven method. My father owns a business, and he works his ass off maintaining it. If his business becomes highly successful, and he employs many people (who agree to work for him at an hourly wage), and he can sit on his ass the rest of his life making millions, I say good for him. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:35
Entirely? Really? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:35
hahahhah and if the government even tried to intrude on that uniquely local govenment responsibility.... oh how the people on the right would cry socialism ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:35
I have some reading you need to do but probably won't:
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:36
Oh, I'm sorry, mostly. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:36
huh? They already do! The Department of Education has something like a $70 billion budget! No Child Left Behind? That's a massive federal "intrusion" on school systems. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:38
And the only way to do a better job of educating is to cut out all the money spent on it. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:38
I'd love to read them, but I can't afford them.  I'm living the first book's description anyway. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
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Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:38
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In Sweden you're given a government paid "salary" each month for studying at university. A third of it is simply given to you, paid by the tax payers, while two thirds are loaned money, which you have to pay back (with quite low interest) once you've graduated and started working. Naturally, you have to finish the courses, naturally you have pass the courses. You're only allowed to get this money for 7 years of studying, which covers a master programme + 2 years extra. The point is of course to give everyone who wants to study, the chance to study, no matter how wealthy your family is. Just to shift the discussion from CEOs. What do you think about this? |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:39
Are you serious or being sarcastic? |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:40
The US has a similar system (but is tailored more for those who have less). It's called FAFSA, The Pell Grant, and Sallie Mae (for loans). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Tony R
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:40
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I think we are brainwashed into believing that the only viable system is Capitalism because that is the status quo. Be careful of confusing modern Socialism with Communism or Marxism. I'm a member of the British Labour Party (Socialist) but anyone accusing me of being a Communist best have a very big stick with which to protect themselves with... Many European countries operate just fine and dandy with a progressive form of Socialist Govt in place. I think social reform and welfare are fine things that any self-respecting civilised country would want to aspire to, It's just the paying for it that is the problem. I favour progressive taxation with an obligation to pay. Large companies or self-employed should all pay their share without being taxed into oblivion. As an Atheist I find it INCREDIBLE that any Christian could possibly not favour a socialist based ideology (with any of its perceived weaknesses) over Capitalism/Right Wing/Republican ideologies. Your Christ would not approve of you voting against social welfare. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:41
You might be able to read them by borrowing a copy from one from one of those socialist public libraries. |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:41
Don, I don't know if the system in Sweden is the same as in Finland, but if it is, you forgot to say that you have to pass a test in order to be admitted to study at university (something that rarely happens in Italy). If you fail, you're sure not to be given anything. |
Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:41
Is it effective? |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:42
oh hardly.... if that was anything more than a drop in the bucket as to what the real costs of education and who manages education... the local level.. county city state...we wouldn't have the inequality of education ...at the public level we do. You know that Pat... your quality of education depends on where you live... hat is the result of local taxes.. which in turn pay for education. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:43
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By the way Micky, you should have phrased that topic in the form of a question. ? |
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:43
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:43
some clappies to you Tony.... goddamn right.... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Leningrad
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:45
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Posted By: LinusW
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:45
You don't have to pass a test. Acceptance is based on grades. You can take a test, but it's mostly meritorious, and can give you an edge against even high grades students who haven't taken the test if you do well. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:45
Teaching here is for sh*t anyway (I know). As an English teacher I have to have: -A 4 year degree -A teaching certificate (which requires 3 passing grades on tests WE have to pay for) -300 training hours of ESOL (teaching students who don't speak English as a primary language- that's another can of worms I won't go into right now) -6 completed courses in teaching reading -ON TOP OF various unpaid assigned trainings throughout the year All this, including actually teaching, creating lesson plans, grading papers / assignments, attending staff meetings, parental meetings, proctoring tests, and completing paperwork as it arises. All this for $36,000. And make no mistake- 90% of the training is worthless. Seriously. Only about ten percent of the trainings I've ever attended have been helpful (and many other teachers wholeheartedly agree with me on this). Many of the trainings are conducted by people who haven't stood in the front of a classroom in 30 years. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:46
Edited my original post too late: I'm just arguing that the federal government already does have a hand and a say in education - No Child Left Behind had had a massive effect on virtually every school system in the country. Of course it's still mostly a local control. Obviously there's high correlation between poor neighborhoods and bad schools, particularly in the inner cities, but simply throwing money at those schools won't fix the problem either - the problems are more systemic than lack of funds in a lot of cases. |
Posted By: TGM: Orb
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:46
Wish we had that system. We did once. Then Blair (IIRC) broke it. One rather neat point I've heard on that one is that those studying and getting degrees are going to be earning more and thus providing more taxable income anyway... the lack of proper government subsidy in that area isn't doing them any favours. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:48
OK, now I'm completely confused.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:48
I would say that for the most part, it's a good system (maybe too much unnecessary paperwork), and helps the less fortunate obtain a college education (the loans are low interest also, and don't have to be repaid until after graduation). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:49
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Most thinking Christians do support a socialist based ideology.
------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Leningrad
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:50
Just emphasizing. Some people seem to think that Socialism = Stalinism.
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Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:51
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:52
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Despots can take over any social system if the conditions are right. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:53
For church, maybe (which is run on voluntary donations, not taxes). I think your statement is a terrible over-generalization, by the way. (Most Christians I know- and I know many- are staunch fiscal conservatives). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:54
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Posted By: Leningrad
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:56
It wasn't obvious. But I'll leave it at one quote.
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 12:58
What exactly are you trying to do here, get this thread back on topic or something? |
Posted By: Leningrad
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:01
I don't know, seems like you and I just killed it anyway.
Anyhow, socialism is not Bolshevism, derp derp derp, I'll be back as soon as somebody uses the word 'totalitarian'.
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:04
Tell that to everyone in the world. In capitalism, not everyone can be a CEO. There have to be people to be pissed on. That's why pure capitalism is cover-my-eyes scary ass f**k. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:05
Your statement points out the fact that socialism is a logical consequence of the Christian faith. You're right and most Christians know it. It was actually taught straight from the pulpit in the small town church I grew up in.
The voluntary part is important, but it depends on people actually then taking the social burdens upon themselves. Religious organizations do this more than any other in the country. Whether or not they trust the government to effectively do this varies, but the ideal is the still very socialist. The sublimation of the individual wants and even needs for the good of the other and the all.
BTW, I don't self-identify as Christian anymore, but I haven't rejected it either. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:08
Someone made a response book to Nickel and Dimed. Point is, she just wasn't trying hard enough. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:09
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And most people don't know dick about Communism either, at least not what Marx wrote about it. PROTIP: you don't have to live in communes. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:09
We need more quote pyramids to revitalize this thread. But seriously the people who go "socialism, socialism, socialism, socialism, braak, braaak, braaaak", for the most part are ill informed. |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:10
I find Evangelicals tend to be much more fiscally conservative than the congregations in churches I have belonged to (I grew up in the Anglican Church but my wife was Pentecostal). She'd even attended a seminar on why Jesus was a Conservative, whereas I saw Jesus as much more of a socialist. I'm not religious, by the way. |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:10
The only way to "Work your way up" is to bend over many many times and then to return the favor many times over to those less fortunate. It is inherently predatory. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:15
I've heard both sides, but to be honest, seeing Jesus either way amounts to little more than anachronistic ethnocentrism. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:18
That's been my experience, unethical sycophants tend to be rewarded and then exploit those beneath them (often taking credit for other's work). Sociopaths have an advantage. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:18
Exactly stone- not everyone can be a CEO. I probably couldn't. I'm not whining about it though. And face it- some people get "pissed on" because they have no sense or restraint (Would you trust compulsive gamblers or alcoholics with a "fresh start" financially?) ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: crimson87
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:20
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Both the market and the government are necesary for a country to have a fair wealth distribution. Let the market do the big business and the government MUST provide basic services which the market won't find any worth in producing them. Also the government must control them and put a limit in wages. A progressive tax system is also a must.
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Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:24
So, that predatory, aspiring CEOs screw over anyone who gets in their way, it's...the fault of he who is screwed over? I hope to Zeus I'm interpreting that wrong. Point is, capitalism is founded on greed, selfishness, and screwing over others. If it is not tempered (hopefully highly) with socialism, it is inhumane, evil, and will corrupt the society entirely and to its core. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:24
That made too much sense, you must be some kind of socialisticommunist... ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:27
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Anachronistic ethnocentrism - that's a lot of letters. And to some degree correct. But seeing as "Socialist" is a very broad term, you can infer from, yes even the Bible, some socialist tendencies. But yes to compare that to anything resembling our market is just following your own thought streams.
------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: March 26 2009 at 13:28
Good thing that hasn't happened already, we might really be in trouble... ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |