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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2008 at 12:04
Originally posted by UMUR UMUR wrote:

I think Mosh-pits are an important part of extreme metal concerts and most people who attend those concerts enjoy them. Either as voyers or participants.

Of course. But it's not always the kind of good, clean, harmless fun that you make it out to be, my friend's platinum bracelet got stolen in a moshpit once Tongue, of course he was stupid to wear a bracelet to a metal concert, but just saying that undesirable elements do creep in and spoil the fun for the rest of the crowd.
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Points: 424 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2008 at 12:13
Originally posted by The Pessimist The Pessimist wrote:


It is a shame, but I've always took pride in the fact that not many people listen to it. I don't know why, but I think that's also why many people enjoy listening to prog. It's contraversial.

Not going to debate taste, but personally I try not to settle my opinions based on their popularity.

You have to admit though: it does help...

Perhaps.  But, then again, I don't see how music of any kind can settle the problems of living.

Which is why it's always better to annoy the neighbours with some Death Metal instead. No-one gets hurt and it's perfectly within moral boundries.

I disagree here.  Is it not morally questionable intentionally to annoy one's neighbors?  Of course, no one is physically hurt, but clearly moral infractions extend beyond the physical.


Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


...one can make a music album about  a serial killer executing his victims with the utmost artistry without condemning or lauding his act.

Not sure if complete objectivity is possible in any human activity; at best, it's an ideal, and for that matter, I'm not sure if it really is ideal.  The business of life requires subjective judgments.

It remains to be seen whether such a concept would find takers, but it's as acceptable a concept as any other to my mind. 

Of course, it's "as acceptable a concept as any."  Again, I wouldn't advocate censorship of any artwork.  The message, however, is subject to moral judgment.  For example, Prussian Blue has, I believe, the right to perform their music; however, this doesn't preclude that message being one I find morally repugnant. 

As a not irrelevant aside, we need to get pass the idea that any jangling of cans or splattering of paint is art.

I don't know whether you are referring to overexposure in terms of extreme metal or disco, the former has happened to me though.

The former.  Somewhat less vulgar than the latter, in any case.



Edited by WinterLight - December 31 2008 at 12:26
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2008 at 13:35
Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:

 

Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


...one can make a music album about  a serial killer executing his victims with the utmost artistry without condemning or lauding his act.


Not sure if complete objectivity is possible in any human activity; at best, it's an ideal, and for that matter, I'm not sure if it really is ideal.  The business of life requires subjective judgments.


The business of life, yes.  Art  - how much does art relate to real life? It is a fantasy, an escapist trip, all said and done.  It may be a way of life for the artist, but it is at best an obsessive, desultory pursuit for the audience, can never be any greater part of their life except where the audience may be artists themselves.  I spend serious amounts of time on music and fiction, which could perhaps be better spent on accounting theory, being my domain of specialization but I never take the artist's message to heart. I may heartily applaud the way he has conveyed his thoughts, however repugnant, but whether they are repugnant or not in a practical context is of no bearing to me. Of course, this is a contentious point, which is why censorship enters through the back door under the pretext of making art "socially responsible".

Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:

 Of course, it's "as acceptable a concept as any."  Again, I wouldn't advocate censorship of any artwork.  The message, however, is subject to moral judgment.  For example, Prussian Blue has, I believe, the right to perform their music; however, this doesn't preclude that message being one I find morally repugnant.

While I would surely note the presence of a repugnant message in a work of art, I wouldn't hold it against the artist. I am only interested in what is his mastery over his art. 
  

Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:

As a not irrelevant aside, we need to get pass the idea that any jangling of cans or splattering of paint is art.

Yes, to the extent, they don't conform to even the loosest definitions of art.  But if they do, then what does it matter if it is distasteful because taste is again a matter of perception.  
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Points: 4625 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2008 at 15:29
Originally posted by rushfan4 rushfan4 wrote:

Death metal is definitely not my cup of tea, but to each their own.  Personally, I come from the liberal school of thought that just about everything is fair game when it comes to art, as long as "no animals were harmed in the making of this film".  The great thing about music is that it comes with an off button, a mute button, and generally it requires you to make an effort to have it cross your ears; although there is generally little you can do when sitting in traffic and the car next to you is blasting music loud enough to shake your fillings.  Translated: if you don't like it, you don't have to listen to it.

That being said, I could be wrong but I think that Dave means well with his point of view, even if it isn't being taken well.  Many and maybe even most people can listen to death metal music entirely for entertainment value and they are never going to go out and commit the atrocities that are sung about within the songs. Same theory as with slasher movies; many or most people who enjoy these watch them for the entertainment value and are never going to go on to become slashers.  But there is always going to be that percentage of the population that are impressionable and who could come under the influence of this type of music and go on to commit the atrocities that are sung about within these type of songs or within those type of movies.  I think that that becomes a question of nature versus nurture.  Does the music or the movies cause people to commit the atrocities or would the people have committed the atrocities anyways, and they gravitate towards that type of music because it is within their nature?  I think that this is one of those things that psychiatrists/psychologists/sociologists have debated and will debate for years. 


That's a really astute analysis of "vulgar" arts in general. People aren't just a blank slate that are ready to be programmed by the first horror movie/death metal song/rap song they here. But can the right thing push the right person over the edge at the right time. That's a tootsie pop question imo. But this is more of a moral quandary aimed at the purveyors of such arts rather than the listeners. As far as I am concerned you can listen to Chuck gib ppl all day long as long as you aren't doing it too.


Edited by Deathrabbit - December 31 2008 at 15:32
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Points: 492 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2008 at 16:00
Hello Guys!!! Personally I enjoy uplifting music!! Or depressing concept music!!! Dependant on mood. Symphony X doesn't need to depress me with I love Satan lyrics or Death is a beautiful thing lyrics!! Why don't they - because they are very good musicians -that's why!!! Oh and Metal - I love Black Sabbath, Dio, Judas Priest, Dream Theater, Pain of Salvation!!!! I do not like some wokko guy telling me all about death and his Satanic or Christian feelings about death!!! War Pigs by Sabbath I love - it is an anti war epic!! I don't want some bloke telling me that the Dark master is the way to go to enjoy death!!!!!!!
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Points: 424 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2008 at 16:58
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


It is a fantasy, an escapist trip, all said and done. 

Perhaps for you that's all it is, and in my opinion, that's sad.  Others feel, as do I, that art, rather than an escape, is an enrichment to our lives.

...but I never take the artist's message to heart.

Art is communication, and the function of communication is to convey messages.  That you don't take the message seriously implies that you neither take the art itself seriously.  It becomes merely an amusement, a diversion.

While I would surely note the presence of a repugnant message in a work of art, I wouldn't hold it against the artist. I am only interested in what is his mastery over his art.

In other words, you're interested in form over content, art for art's sake, as one would say.  Well, that's your choice, but I'm thankful that it isn't mine.

Yes, to the extent, they don't conform to even the loosest definitions of art.  But if they do, then what does it matter if it is distasteful because taste is again a matter of perception.  

Not everything is a matter of perception; in particular, artistic merit presupposes artistic standards, if it were otherwise anyone who could make a racket would be a musician.  The existence of standards in other professions is a commonplace, and for obvious reasons (surely the owners of the accounts which you handle expect your adherence to certain standards).  Why, beside a perpetual infancy or dearth of talent, some artists insist that no such standards apply to their work eludes me.


Edited by WinterLight - December 31 2008 at 16:59
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Points: 933 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2008 at 19:23
aw man, I miss out on all the good threads! 
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Points: 1698 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2008 at 19:38
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

Hello Guys!!! Personally I enjoy uplifting music!! Or depressing concept music!!! Dependant on mood. Symphony X doesn't need to depress me with I love Satan lyrics or Death is a beautiful thing lyrics!! Why don't they - because they are very good musicians -that's why!!! Oh and Metal - I love Black Sabbath, Dio, Judas Priest, Dream Theater, Pain of Salvation!!!! I do not like some wokko guy telling me all about death and his Satanic or Christian feelings about death!!! War Pigs by Sabbath I love - it is an anti war epic!! I don't want some bloke telling me that the Dark master is the way to go to enjoy death!!!!!!!
 
Originally posted by In the Presence of Enemies by Dream Theater In the Presence of Enemies by Dream Theater wrote:

Dark Master within, I will fight for you
Dark Master of sin, now my soul is yours
Dark Master, my guide, I will die for you
Dark Master inside…
 
Sorry, couldn't resist. Being a bit contradictory aren't you?LOL

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rogerthat View Drop Down
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: December 31 2008 at 21:14
Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:

 Art is communication, and the function of communication is to convey messages.  That you don't take the message seriously implies that you neither take the art itself seriously.  It becomes merely an amusement, a diversion.

Yes, I concede that that is all it is to me. I could get cynical and say it's a rather cumbersome means of amusement, but the only one I know of - I could be "normal" and just join friends and acquaintances in a discotheque after work but that kind of life doesn't interest me, so instead it's got be non-mainstream music -  in general - and early 20th century authors in the solitary comfort of home! Wink

Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:

 In other words, you're interested in form over content, art for art's sake, as one would say.  Well, that's your choice, but I'm thankful that it isn't mine. 

Well, is content in music only lyrical? This is a question to ponder over. What of the effect musical movements have on one's moods and feelings because I find that far more appealing.  Again it may be only my opinion, but what is the relative importance of lyrics and well the actual music in music? Your thoughts..

Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:

Not everything is a matter of perception; in particular, artistic merit presupposes artistic standards, if it were otherwise anyone who could make a racket would be a musician.  The existence of standards in other professions is a commonplace, and for obvious reasons (surely the owners of the accounts which you handle expect your adherence to certain standards).  Why, beside a perpetual infancy or dearth of talent, some artists insist that no such standards apply to their work eludes me.

In principle, I agree but in practice, this can lead us back to another form of censorship.  There is a formal body of music theory, knowledge and rules and every work of music must at least broadly adhere to it. But what happens if we start imposing aesthetic standards?  The problem is aesthetic appeal is too subjective to be universally understood and followed as a standard.  My city has many 19th century and early 20th century buildings which look beautiful to my eyes but not to the little kids who will be architects years hence; they would rather have the gaudy, hideous glass monsters for which these relics are more and more making way.  In the same way, if we imposed aesthetic standards on music, I have no doubt that eventually everybody would subscribe to people like Davetheslave or PROGMONSTER that extreme metal is just noise and growls cannot have any emotion. LOL 
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Points: 492 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2009 at 10:24

Hi Rogerthat - I love Horror movies and have a large collection of them! Amongst those movies are some pretty extreme ones and I find little merit in those movies other than to severely shock the watcher. I have them in my collection today because they are there but I would rather not have ever seen them - if they had been denied to me because of an artistic standard in the movies then I would be no poorer!

Hi topofsm - those lyrics nearly put me off of Dream Theater until I listened (on advice) to the track as a whole and it isn't a praise of Satan - it forms part of a story where Satan is not the victor. It aint a prayer or praise of Satan!!!
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Points: 5195 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2009 at 10:45
Death Metal does not necessarily carry a religious message - but of course sometimes it does. It's not always satanistic though ... there are even Christian Death Metal bands. Personally, being an atheist myself, I have a very neutral position on the subject ... which means that I can go from Neal Morse - One to Celtic Frost - Monotheist without any problems.
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Points: 424 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2009 at 12:33
Originally posted by rogerthat rogerthat wrote:


...so instead it's got be non-mainstream music -  in general - and early 20th century authors in the solitary comfort of home!

Incidentally, many of the early 20th century intellectuals (Adorno, Huxley, etc.) would be rather disdainful of your taste in music.

Well, is content in music only lyrical? This is a question to ponder over. What of the effect musical movements have on one's moods and feelings because I find that far more appealing.  Again it may be only my opinion, but what is the relative importance of lyrics and well the actual music in music? Your thoughts.

Actually, there's very little to ponder.  Of course, the music itself is expressive, even in absence of vocals.  I previously stated as much.

In principle, I agree but in practice, this can lead us back to another form of censorship.  There is a formal body of music theory, knowledge and rules and every work of music must at least broadly adhere to it. But what happens if we start imposing aesthetic standards?  The problem is aesthetic appeal is too subjective to be universally understood and followed as a standard.  My city has many 19th century and early 20th century buildings which look beautiful to my eyes but not to the little kids who will be architects years hence; they would rather have the gaudy, hideous glass monsters for which these relics are more and more making way.  In the same way, if we imposed aesthetic standards on music, I have no doubt that eventually everybody would subscribe to people like Davetheslave or PROGMONSTER that extreme metal is just noise and growls cannot have any emotion.

It's not the quandary that you suggest it is.  Such "aesthetic standards" need not (and, I believe, should not) be artificial and "universally" imposed.  The standards naturally develop within a particular culture, and their may be significant differences between such cultural standards (and some standards--it is conceivable I think--might be superior to others, despite what the relativist would have us believe).
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Points: 1818 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2009 at 14:16
Originally posted by topofsm topofsm wrote:

Originally posted by In the Presence of Enemies by Dream Theater In the Presence of Enemies by Dream Theater wrote:

Dark Master within, I will fight for you
Dark Master of sin, now my soul is yours
Dark Master, my guide, I will die for you
Dark Master inside…
 
Sorry, couldn't resist. Being a bit contradictory aren't you?LOL
 
 
LOLLOLLOL That's hilarious because I picture a harmless guy as LaBrie singing those lyrics!
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Points: 3658 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2009 at 17:52

I am sorry to inject some sanity into this debate, but let me clear up where Death Metal originated from:

In the beginning, Death Metal was called Black Metal. There was even a couple of compilation albums called Black Metal. Those only included Death and Thrash Metal bands.

Death Metal originates from:

1. A song on a Possessed album.

2. The band Death 

3. Or both.

Black Metal was pushed back down into some basements. It then emigrated to Norway. It then rose again with a murder and some arsons. Well, numerous arsons in fact. Even I got an meat axe deposited through my bedroom window.......... after I had vacated that flat three months before. This is according to the mythology.  

The Death Metal scene swapped place with the Black Metal scene in the dingy basement and the Death Metal scene disapeared from the face of the earth for a while. Today, both scenes are alive and well.
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Points: 933 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2009 at 18:18
1)  there was never a compilation called "Black Metal" in the 80s, perhaps you're thinking of the Death Metal comp on Noise Rec that has Hellhammer, Helloween, Running Wild, and Dark Avenger ?

2) in addition to Possessed, in 1985 Onslaught and Vulcano respectively had songs named Death Metal,

3) Death, Black, Thrash, indeed all came from the same primordial stuff, although in the early to mid 80s those terms were bandied about quite liberally, in addition to Power, Speed and Doom,

4) not sure how one can say BM emigrated to Norway?  Blasphemy, Beherit, Samael, Profanatica, Mortuary Drape, Master's Hammer, Root, Sabbat (jap), Necromantia, Tormentor, etc all from several different countries and all were playing BM long before the BM trend in Norway


Edited by mithrandir - January 02 2009 at 18:20
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Points: 1698 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2009 at 19:24
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

Hi Rogerthat - I love Horror movies and have a large collection of them! Amongst those movies are some pretty extreme ones and I find little merit in those movies other than to severely shock the watcher. I have them in my collection today because they are there but I would rather not have ever seen them - if they had been denied to me because of an artistic standard in the movies then I would be no poorer!

Hi topofsm - those lyrics nearly put me off of Dream Theater until I listened (on advice) to the track as a whole and it isn't a praise of Satan - it forms part of a story where Satan is not the victor. It aint a prayer or praise of Satan!!!

 
1. You can use the quote box if you find it necessary. Makes it easier for conversing with specific people.Thumbs Up
 
2. I think you're condemning all death metal for it all being a prayer to satan, at least that's what you're implying by saying the DT song isn't a prayer to satan. In fact, there's plenty of death metal nowadays that doesn't focus entirely  on death or satan. For example, there is a death metal/metalcore band called Becoming the Archetype that are Christian, you may want to try them out.
 
As for me, I find some lyrics about death intriguing, and they offer a new side of perceiving life that can be refreshing. For example, Tool's lyrics in "10,000 Days (Wings Pt. 2)" about his dead mother passing on to the other side I find very cool, and that happens to be one of my favorite songs.
 
And if you're a fan of Dream Theater, then you should realize that they couldn't possibly have made Metropolis pt. 2 without singing about death.
 
And just realize that you don't always have to pay attention to the lyrics. There's far too much good metal out there to pay attention to the embarrasing lyrics that go along with them.
 
 

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Points: 3658 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2009 at 19:27

Hi.

I stand corrected on point 1, 2 and 3. 

On point 4, you should had added your country's very own Shub Niggurath. That was a good band. Black Metal was underground before we Norwegians added petrol and lighters together. The scene then became commercial and pretty much mainstream. Today, the youth has to declare themselves Christians to shock their parents and the society. LOL  
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2009 at 21:41
Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:

 

Incidentally, many of the early 20th century intellectuals (Adorno, Huxley, etc.) would be rather disdainful of your taste in music.

Aw, as if they could have imagined something like extreme metal becoming a form of music! Tongue


Originally posted by WinterLight WinterLight wrote:

 
Actually, there's very little to ponder.  Of course, the music itself is expressive, even in absence of vocals.  I previously stated as much.[/QUOTE]


Which means music can surely be pertinent and of high quality without expressing a social/philosophical message in the lyrics. You can write instrumental music to all sorts of themes and socio/philo may be among them, but it is not a necessary condition.  I am convinced that art is just an expression of an artist's thoughts and if it resonates on a moral level with the audience positively or negatively, it is usually incidental.  


[QUOTE=WinterLight] 
It's not the quandary that you suggest it is.  Such "aesthetic standards" need not (and, I believe, should not) be artificial and "universally" imposed.  The standards naturally develop within a particular culture, and their may be significant differences between such cultural standards (and some standards--it is conceivable I think--might be superior to others, despite what the relativist would have us believe).

You did not quite grasp the concern I was addressing. Once you have aesthetic standards, the next step is for a self-anointed cultural police to emerge and turn up their noses (or ears) at anything that doesn't SOUND pleasant to them.  The point is, it is not necessary for music to sound pleasant according to SOME conventions laid down by SOME people.  That music needs to sound pleasant is itself a very limiting restriction and only believed in by those who cannot visualise the scope for depicting different emotions through a more abrasive or inaccessible approach to music.  I am not really being paranoid in talking about a cultural police; in my country, unless you move in dandy circles, you cannot escape cultural policing right through your childhood and teenhood and if you are in really bad luck, even in adulthood, be it teachers or elders, every effort is made to wean the child away from any activities that said elders did not indulge in thier childhood. 


Edited by rogerthat - January 02 2009 at 21:43
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Points: 9869 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2009 at 21:51
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

Hi Rogerthat - I love Horror movies and have a large collection of them! Amongst those movies are some pretty extreme ones and I find little merit in those movies other than to severely shock the watcher. I have them in my collection today because they are there but I would rather not have ever seen them - if they had been denied to me because of an artistic standard in the movies then I would be no poorer!



My dear sir, you surely realize that mankind would be no poorer in a prosaic sense if the arts did not exist!  Have you never met anybody who does not read or listen to music and does not paint or appreciate paintings but is extremely successful in his chosen walk of life, because I have.  Art is an indulgence and in no way required to forward "progress" as we know it but the appreciation of art can enrich your experience of life immeasurably. And therefore projecting your perceptions of art on a subset of art - in this case, extreme metal - and wondering why it need exist - when like any art form, it perfectly need not exist at all - is coutner-productive.  
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Points: 3834 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 02 2009 at 22:10
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

Symphony X doesn't need to depress me with I love Satan lyrics or Death is a beautiful thing lyrics!! Why don't they - because they are very good musicians -that's why!!!
So you are trying to say that bands like Death aren't good musicians? I'll have you know that Chuck Schuldiner (RIP) was one of the greatest guitarists and riff writers of the 20th century. Just listen to the main riff in The Philosopher and tell me you didn't enjoy every note of it.
Originally posted by DavetheSlave DavetheSlave wrote:

Oh and Metal - I love Black Sabbath, Dio, Judas Priest, Dream Theater, Pain of Salvation!!!! I do not like some wokko guy telling me all about death and his Satanic or Christian feelings about death!!! War Pigs by Sabbath I love - it is an anti war epic!!
They're not metal THIS is metal

And by the way, are your "1" and "SHIFT"  keys broken?
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