Is Steve Hackett's guitar work... Weird? - Progressive Rock Music Forum

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Ivan_Melgar_M View Drop Down

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Posted: April 21 2007 at 19:02

erik neuteboom wrote:

I hope a record company will release the BBC 1977 live recordings of the W&W tour because it does justice to Hackett his awesome contribution to Genesis rather than the poor Seconds Out on which, as you mentioned, it's like as if somebody has lowered the volume button of Hackett his amplifier ...

That's a good wish, seems for what I seen and read that the relations were not good with Steve since the W&W sessions, if you got the Genesis Live Film (With Bruford), seems to me like a band formed by three friends (Tony, Phil and Mike) plus two guests Steve playing very far froom them in the left and Bill Bruford on who the camera hardly focus.

Some statements done made this issue seem suspicious:

2. Why was Steve Hackett mixed out of 'Seconds Out' ?

Like a lot of things surrounding Steve Hackett's departure, this myth has been helped along thanks to a humorous quip which has been twisted over the years.

On the 'Genesis – A History' video which was released in 1990, Tony Banks jokes that once Steve announced that he was to leave the band: "We just mixed him out of the rest of the album and carried on!".

Sadly the humour which accompanies this quote has always been overlooked and it tends to be taken at face value. In fact, if you listen to Seconds Out, of course you can hear Steve Hackett's guitar along with the other instruments.

However, the whole sound of the album is very clean and polished, and as such loses some of the rawness and energy of the band as it actually sounded on stage – this seems to have given rise to the myth of Steve's being 'mixed out'.

http://www.genesis.invisionzone.com/index.php?showtopic=18

I don't know if it's a joke, I want to think so, but the instrument that suffers more in that supposedly polished mix is Steve's guitar.

Iván

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 02:27

Ivan,

Why do you think you can bully people around on this site just because their oppinions difffers to yours? It's the agressive tone of your posts that will drive people away from the forums, not my oppinions of which I am entitled to! Learn to accept that not everyone thinks Genesis are the bees knees. It seems it's OK to have threads bashing ELP [a much better band than Genesis IMO] but as soon as anything is said negative about Genesis a pack mentality develops and there are calls for people to be banned. What makes this forum great is freedom of speech and to express oppinions, whether you like Genesis or not.

I will re-phrase one point that annoyed you. ''The lead instrument in Genesis music was 95% keyboard'', and that is not a team band by any stretch of the imagination IMO. I stand by my statement that Genesis were the most keyboard driven band outside of ELP. It's well documented that Hackett was often frustrated in the studio due to his ideas being ignored. Suerly you don't need me to supply a reference?

I have never said anything derogatory about Hackett. In fact I said he is a very good guitar player but not exceptional. His technique is often flawed & could not improvise beyond what was rehearsed. I have witnessed it myself when he tried to play an unreheared blues jam with some unfamiliar musicians. When Stuerner joined, Genesis would often jam out on stage for twenty minutes or more! I have seen Hackett live on numerous occasions but he has always 'played it safe' by sticking to what was rehearsed & the songs have absolutely no variation from the studio recordings.

Also, despite my extensive research to back up Hackett's claims, Van Halen has never said that he was influenced by him. Here's a quote I found,'' Jimmy Page's landmark guitar solo on the song ''Heartbreaker'' was my inspiration for the trademark 2-hand clapping technique'' [Eddie Van Halen, 92]

You may also be interested to know that this technique is sometimes known by guitar connosoirs as ''w**kery'' and is quite easy to learn. ......just something I read whilst researching the technique!

Peace!

Edited by Progger - April 22 2007 at 07:35

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 03:59

Remarkable Ivan what you told about Tony Banks and his 'Steve Hackett' joke. Tony Banks is infamous for his passive agression so I won't be surprised if it was more than a joke

....

By the way, did you realise that the instrumental part of The Cinema Show was a first sign of the And Then There Were Three line-up? I noticed that during the latest The Musical Box gig (SEBTP tour) when only Rutherford, Collins and Banks remained on stage to do their captivating instrumental interplay as .... a trio

Edited by erik neuteboom - April 22 2007 at 08:17

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 07:40

I prefer his solo career over his Genesis output but it's all good.

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 10:49

Progger wrote:

You may also be interested to know that this technique is sometimes known by guitar connosoirs as ''w**kery'' and is quite easy to learn. ......just something I read whilst researching the technique!

Peace!

Other techniques too - particularly alternate picking, or "Shredding" have unfortunately come to be known under the term you used, simply because of the number of guitarists who use the techique by way of technical bluff, rather than in a tasteful and artistic manner.

However, some sources (including the highly accurate Wikipedia...) note that Eddie got inspiration from Jimmy Page performing pull-offs on an open string - Page did not use the "tapping" technique, so this link is almost entirely erroneous.

It is entirely possible that Van Halen had never heard Hackett, but it seems doubtful that Hackett would make the claim that Eddie got the idea from him without evidence or personal acknowledgement. Don't forget that when Rock stars do reviews, they're usually thinking off (the tops of) their heads...

Did you remember which Cream songs contain two-handed tapping, because I've just been listening to "Disraeli Gears" and can't hear any.

The important thing is not to stop questioning.

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 15:07

Well Heartbreaker could be tapped with two hands but its unnecissary... my bands guitarist showed me and it could also be done with one hand aswel...

As for the argument about Steve Hackett inventing tapping I agree with the guy who said it dosen't matter. I also agree with the guy who said that the other guy is just trying to provoke the other other guy because he is silly :P It would be best if things would not get personal, IMO.

Well... during this thread my opinions have changed about Hackett... not because of anything specific people said in this thread... I just came to acceptance with the fact that he sometimes dosen't sit perfectly tight on the rythm and dosen't always hit the exact notes when he pulls, ect... Its just OK. It's a part of his style and although it is not a very good attribute in itself, together with the way Hackett plays the guitar, it's simply OK... And ofcourse he has all the good attributes which have been widely spoken of in this thread so there is no need to repeat them...

To the guy who said tapping isn't that difficult.... Bullsh*t... Well, single handed tapping is indeed considered easy, but that has exceptions aswel... As for two handed tapping... Well most beginner guitarists CAN play two handed tapping... It's not one of those techniques that the very basics of require great techincal ability. But playing complex and non-static tapping patterns is HARD. And if your talking about the usage of tapping in an artistic and emotional way, no one, and I mean NO ONE (that I have heard of) does it better than Hackett...

I have a non related question for Ivan... What reason do you have to believe that Tony Banks wasn't a fan of soloing?

Edited by TheLamb - April 22 2007 at 15:11

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 15:12

Umm.... I like his playing. It is kinda weird though. But compared to other prog bands? It's not weird at all. I never really liked his tone however.

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 16:51

Steve's a pretty good guitarist, but he's not a pyrotechnics wiz; in that I mean he is not as technically proficient as Steve Vai or whomever, but he had a pretty good ear for melody, so... its a matter of preference at that point.

My only gripes about his playing style is that his solos are low energy and not nearly as good as his soli parts with the keyboard. I would put him in a similar category with Brian may from Queen, who also was not the most energetic soloist, but has a beautiful melodic style. However, Steve is inferior to Brian in the soloing department. Especially in "The Musical Box" (GASP) his solo starts out great, but falls off on the end, dropping the baton that had juggled around frenetically in the band up until that point. For someone who could write great melodies and wrote out most of his solos ahead of time, why are his solos not as good as Brian's? i dont know.

i will concede that the energy in "The Musical Box" solo is pretty good until the middle part where Steve just twiddles around, almost leaving the key for no apparent reason, its like just got lazy and didn't feel like making the solo awesome by writing out the rest of it well.

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 17:00

Time to make some replies, some pleasent, and other not so in the first one will only make a couple of precisions:

Progger wrote:

Ivan,

I have not bullied you Progger, only gave you facts and EIGHT (8) historic quotes, and asked you to prove one is false or at least give one your's.....Have you??? The answer is......................................NO.

Erik, Certified, Chus, HT and myself have give you different opinions, I given you quotes, you gave let me see...................Nothing except an inaccurate example about Cream that Certified has proven wrong.

Give one quote to support your claims...ONLY ONE

I would never ask to ban you, honestly I have more important things to worry about.

Well Progger in the 2001 interview from the GUITARIST Magazine, Steve said about Nursery Cryme and Selling England by the Pound:

There was a lot of twinning going on with keyboards at the time, SO IT’S HARD TO FIGURE WHAT’S KAYBOARDS AND WHAT’S GUITAR.

It sounds like guitar emulating keyboards, IT’S DOING STRETCHES THAT GUITARS CAN’T NORMALLY DO, THAT’S WHY I CAME WITH THE IDEA FROM.

http://www.stevehackett.com/top.html

So.......If I have to choose between believing you and one of the most respected musicians who has always been honest with his audience like Steve Hackett......I choose Steve

But, I want to believe it's not your fault, if a trained musicians with more than three decades of experience, says that in early Genesis it's hard to discriminate between the guitar and keyboarsa...What can we expect from you?

Read your older posts, you have ebven called him a medocre guitar player not capable of playing in a band like Yes.

But tell me Jamming = virtuoso and making faithful renditions to a studio album = being limited?

Have you seen Hackett (You said you have) playng the Horizons or old Genesis Medley on acustic guitar?? Don't misundesrtand me, but I believe he's jamming.

Have you seen his Jazz DVD's with his broither? Also pure jamming.

Jamming is not a game ton prove how fast you create,, we're talking about a band that plays solid and structured music, not about a free jazz trio, when Peter and Steve left, they had to use Daryll Stuermer A JAZZ GUITAR PLAYER and required long jamming because Phil Collins loved to sit on the drums and play long passages.

Genesis music DOESN'T REQUIRED JAMMING IN THE EARLY YEARS, so Steve didn't used it, msot of his albums don't require Jamming, so he doesn't use it, but when required, he jams as any musician.

Well your long research seems to be WRONG.

The MUSIC STREET JOURNAL WROTE:

Music Street Journal: Eddie Van Halen said that he learned the tapping technique from you.

http://www.musicstreetjournal.com/hackettinterview.htm

I don't know where you live, but in every country there's something called PRESS LAW,

The Press Law doesn't allow a magazine to quote a person without having evidence that he said what the magazine claims.

The Music Street Journal clearly states that Eddie Van Halen credited Steve Hackett for his tapping technique THIS HAS TO BE 100% TRUTH, OTHERWISE VAN HALEN WOULD OWN THE MUSIC STREET JOURNAL BECAUSE HE WOULD HAD SUED THEM FOR LYING.

It's not Ivan Melgar M, who says that Eddie Van Halen credited Steve Heckett for his tapping technique, IT'S THE MUSIC STREET JOURNAL IN AN OFFFICIAL PUBLICATION STILL ON LINE, SO IT HAS TO BE 100% ACCURATE.

I guess you won't pretend to know more about laws than me?

You may also be interested to know that this technique is sometimes known by guitar connosoirs as ''w**kery'' and is quite easy to learn. ......just something I read whilst researching the technique!

So now that facts prove you're wrong...the once imaginative technique turns into w@nkery and it's easy to learn???????????..........Please be coherent

Now to a more pleasent issue:

erik neuteboom wrote:

Remarkable Ivan what you told about Tony Banks and his 'Steve Hackett' joke. Tony Banks is infamous for his passive agression so I won't be surprised if it was more than a joke

....

No, I didn't told it Erik

it's a quote from the FAQ in the Genesis Official site.

I guess it's a job, but I suspect that the relations bewteen Tony and Steve were tense since "Voyage of the Acolyte" was eleased, Tony stated that it wasn't right for Genesis mnembers in that moment to make a solo career, despite this Steve not only released an acclaimed album but worked with every Genesis ,member except Tony.

Now, when an official site has to wriite a disclaimer as the one I quoted from the Genesis Official site, probably there's something of truth hidding inside a big joke, most surely Tony, Mike and Phil did not mutilated SO on purpose, but without Steve to check his parts and work with the production, most surely nobody cared too much in re-working and editing them.

Yes I agree partially. maybe not the first trio but yes the change of an era, the peak of the Genesis traditional sound (Dark, atmospheric and somehow mysterious) started with Trespass (Phillips approach has similarities to Steve's) but went stronger in Nursery Cryme, Foxtrot and the scary - aggressive versions of Live 73.

SEBTP has a friendlier sound and general atmosphere, even the cover by a lady who's name I can't remembe is very cute, even lovely, while Trespass (With the Knife tearing the cover), Nursery Cryme (With Little Henry's head in the front) and Foxtrot with the fox hunting and the seven shrouded me with a cross all painted by Paul Whitehead.

SEBT except Dancing with the Moonluit Knight and Firth of Fith is more direct, easier to accept by the general audience, the atmosphere is less dense, it's almost as a brother of A Trick of the Tale, then The Lamb was something out of Genesis normal evolution but W&W where Steve collaborated more, is a darker album more in the vein of Fxtrot than in SEBTP.

Thanks God somebody else noticed this, I was starting to think I was the only one.

Now Cert:

Certif1ed wrote:

Checking the interview of The Music Street Journal seems that Van Halen really mentioned Steve, the issue is mentioned by the magazine not by Steve, so I guess it must be true.

One more

TheLamb wrote:

I have a non related question for Ivan... What reason do you have to believe that Tony Banks wasn't a fan of soloing?

Maybe the chosen word is not correct (Maybe he's a fan but doesn't solo too much), but it's a deduction based in the fact that Tony was the main musical songwritter of Genesis, this band has less one instruent solos than any other band, normally even the instrumental sections are created by an interplay of two, three and mostly of four instruments and not by the keys as in the case of ELP or Yes for example.

You rarely will listen a solo like the one in Close to the Edge or Rondo in a Genesis composition, as a fact, no Genesis members did solos frequently.

You can take Wakeman solo from Close to the Edge and the song will not be a masterpiece but surely still a strong track, but you can't take Banks from the Genesis equation because his sound is too blended with the rest of the instruments.

This is the main criticism of people who believe a band is as good as how many solos they make, if had a buck for each time I heard "Genesis is crap and Banks is not a virtuoso because they don't makes solos" (You can change the names Hackett, Rutherford and Collins in the same phrase), I would be rich.

This of course is absurd, a solo must be made only when required to enhance the effect desired by the band, not every 2 or 3 minutes, unless the band's music is based in soloing.

I always seen Genesis as a team work rather than in as a collection of solo efforts and that's their main strenght.

Iván.

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 22 2007 at 17:20

Chus

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 17:02

TheLamb wrote:

Well Heartbreaker could be tapped with two hands but its unnecissary... my bands guitarist showed me and it could also be done with one hand aswel...

I have a non related question for Ivan... What reason do you have to believe that Tony Banks wasn't a fan of soloing?

I agreed with some of what you and Progger said. Tony was a fan of soloing, in fact many times you might notice that he wanted to be the main soloist of the band (although Hackett had his share of solos: Fountain Of Salmacis, Musical Box, Can-utility and The Coastliners, part of Supper's Ready, Firth Of Fifth); it was more evident by the time of Selling England By The Pound and later in Wind & Wuthering Tony was the main soloist in Genesis all the way, while Hackett was put on the isolated corner more than often.

Edited by Chus - April 22 2007 at 17:10

Jesus Gabriel

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 17:12

Did you know that when Hackett left, Allan Holdsworth was asked to join Genesis on tour but he refused so Daryll Stuermer was second choice.

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 17:20

erik neuteboom wrote:

Did you know that when Hackett left, Allan Holdsworth was asked to join Genesis on tour but he refused so Daryll Stuermer was second choice.

I would dare say that Holdsworth's guitar sound was very similar to that of Hackett (in comparison to Daryl Stuemmer, that is -saving also the obvious differences in technique and approach) in that the "tapping" was very present (while Holdsworth's "tapping" manifested itself in playing legato, without breaking the notes with alternate picking.. it wouldn't be called tapping perse but it's a sort of hammering on the fret without picking); I believe Holdsworth would had been a great choice for Genesis' gigs

Jesus Gabriel

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 17:29

Chus wrote:

Maybe a better choice, but as Bruford before, I don't believe Holdsworth would had acceptefd to be the eternal Genesis session musician only for live gigs.

Iván

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 17:34

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

Chus wrote:

Maybe a better choice, but as Bruford before, I don't believe Holdsworth would had acceptefd to be the eternal Genesis session musician only for live gigs.

Iván

Perhaps if not given all the freedom he would had wanted. One of the reasons he didn't accept, I reckon, is because he likes to do his work without any sort of "leash".

Jesus Gabriel

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 17:43

It's so weird because I love Hackett and I don't like Holdsworth his guitar sound so I was stunned that Holdsworth was asked to replace Hackett, like Chick Corea was asked to replace Rick Wakeman in 1974 ...

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 18:51

erik neuteboom wrote:

Hey Erik, that would be an interesting thread!!!

Who were invited, almost made it or auditioned with a famous band?

Peter Gabriel into Happy the Man
Vangelis into Yes
Bruford into Genesis
Elton John into King Crimson and Gentle Giant (This doesn't make him Prog Related guys!!!)
Phil Collins into Yes

And hundreed of other cases.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 22 2007 at 18:56

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 20:10

Changing up Hackett for a shiny new Holdsworth might have been a good move for Genesis. Holdsworth is a technically much better guitarist (its like comparing Eric Clapton to Stevie Ray Vaughn or John McLaughlin - Clapton just doesn't stand a chance) and is also a much better improviser. Holdsworth, McLaughlin, and Al DiMeola may very well be the three best fusion guitarists of all time (I'm talking about technical skill coupled with improvisational chops). I have heard and seen Hackett and Holdsworth many times and Hackett is in Holdsworth's dust as far as improvisation and dynamic playing is concerned.

Of course Holdsworth's style may not have meshed well with Genesis, but it would be very interesting to hear (Phil Collins did play with Brand x after all)

And Ivan, when you just quoted Progger and told him you weren't bullying him with your cute blue fonts, you were bullying him, which doesn't make for a very good "intellectual discussion" atmosphere, but rather enforces a playground mentality of who shouts the loudest and complains the most. Oh yeah, a final word: don't believe everything you see in the news or published in a magazine; have you ever heard of tabloids? They publish false information purposely to make money and controversy. I'm not saying that your Van Halen quote is invalid, but there is reasonable doubt as to whether it is true or not. People rarely sue magazines for publishing incorrect information, unless it is blatantly offensive. Besides, I wouldn't trust old Eddie to have a perfect memory about those kinds of things. And even if Eddie claims Steve as an influence, it doesn't make Steve the creator or even innovator of the technique in rock (and it doesn't mean he necessarily was any good at it).

All that aside, Steve's a good player but not one of my top 15

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 21:32

my two cents is that hackett is a tremendous composer, innovator, creater of sounds, etc., but as a technical musician, he is not a machine like your vais, satrianis, petruccis, morses, etc.... thus his live work will have technical imperfections

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 21:36

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:

erik neuteboom wrote:

Hey Erik, that would be an interesting thread!!!

Who were invited, almost made it or auditioned with a famous band?

Peter Gabriel into Happy the Man
Vangelis into Yes
Bruford into Genesis
Elton John into King Crimson and Gentle Giant (This doesn't make him Prog Related guys!!!)
Phil Collins into Yes

And hundreed of other cases.

Iván

gabirel in happy the man would have been incredible!!! I'm imagining solo era gabriel with happy the man providing instrumental accompaniament. sweet lord why didn't that happen?

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Posted: April 22 2007 at 22:44

Atomic_Rooster wrote:

And Ivan, when you just quoted Progger and told him you weren't bullying him with your cute blue fonts, you were bullying him, which doesn't make for a very good "intellectual discussion" atmosphere, but rather enforces a playground mentality of who shouts the loudest and complains the most.

1.- The blue fonts are to difference what I write from what he or you write. As an honest person I quote what others say word by word, because I don't want to be accused of taking things out of context..

2.- I haven't shouted or insulted I always backup what I say with references, I honestly can't care less for Mr. Van Halen, his music or wether he credited Steve Hackett.

3.- We are not talking about a tabloid, but about a recognized musical magazine, if they are wrong and Mr Van Halen didn't credited Mr. Hackett it doesn't change the fact that Mr Van Halen used the technique only 7 years after Steve Hackett and that's beyond any doubt.

Oh yeah, a final word: don't believe everything you see in the news or published in a magazine; have you ever heard of tabloids? They publish false information purposely to make money and controversy. I'm not saying that your Van Halen quote is invalid, but there is reasonable doubt as to whether it is true or not. People rarely sue magazines for publishing incorrect information, unless it is blatantly offensive. Besides, I wouldn't trust old Eddie to have a perfect memory about those kinds of things.

I didn't gave one quote, I gave EIGHT, and I can get you 100 more without effort, what Mr Van Halen accepted or not doesn't cares at all, because he couldn't invent a technique in 1979 that is:

Recorded
Released
Published
Sold
Credited

Since 1971.

I will make my point about Mr PROGGER and you calling me a bully in the next post, because it creates confusion:

And even if Eddie claims Steve as an influence, it doesn't make Steve the creator or even innovator of the technique in rock (and it doesn't mean he necessarily was any good at it).

Well if Mr Hackett is good or not in his technique is an appreciation that must be made by the audience. already Yehudi Menuhin praised him and used his music for his last Video Biography.

But the fact that Steve Hackett was the first Rock musician to use the double handed tappíng technique is beyond any doubt, you only have to listen The Return of the Giant Hogweed or The Musical Box from the album Nursery Cryme released in 1971 and check if Eddie Van Halen had released anything in that year, if he didn't...well this discussion is pointless because it's impossible for him to have created it.

All that aside, Steve's a good player but not one of my top 15

Good for you, it's your opinion, your taste and I have nothing to say, as long as you don't call the members of this site corrupt liars, you will have no problem at all expressing your opinion.

Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - April 22 2007 at 23:04