Is Steve Hackett's guitar work... Weird?
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Topic: Is Steve Hackett's guitar work... Weird?
Posted By: TheLamb
Subject: Is Steve Hackett's guitar work... Weird?
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 09:29
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Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one who hears it, but it sometimes seems to me that Steve Hackett is a very odd guitarist... He is outstaning, don't get me wrong, I love his work... Genesis and Solo... He's a great composer and he ussualy has a really amazing sound and feel to his playing... His acoustic work is amazing, When he plays those gentle clean guitar parts my hearts always melts... but sometimes, his solos, especially agressively distorted ones just sound horrible.... It's like something is terribly wrong with this guy... Hes a genius on the guitar, but some of his solos just sound like... sh*t.
OK, so you could give countless examples of pieces he played in where the guitar work is completly perfect and heavinly... I do agree, he is a MASTER... but listen to "The Knife" solo, from 'Genesis Live'. Hackett changed the original solo by Anthony Philips, that's understandable... but why does he sound like a 14 year old that has started playing guitar last month? The phrasing is nice here and there... but also... its mostly very odd... and the sound is bad, plus every time he pulls, the guitar sounds like it's trying to kill itself.
Whats up with this guy?
opinions? ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: Heptade
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 09:48
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I see the point, but I don't quite agree...his style is certainly distinctive, and he seems to enjoy throwing in odd effects and techniques, which is the appeal of his playing. You either like it or you don't. When he plays more conventionally, it is obvious that he could play in any style. An exceptional talent. ------------- The world keeps spinning, people keep sinning And all the rest is just bullsh*t -Steve Kilbey |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 09:51
I couldn't have said it any better. 
------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Heptade wrote:Posted By: andu
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 09:52
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I have no technical expertise to bring to this debate, but from a listener's point of view (mine), they seem allright to me, nothing wrong or disturbing. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 10:02
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What I enjoy the most in any Steve Hackett performance is exactly how he manages to use the electric guitar as something else. You won't find another guitarist with such an inventive technique (leaving Zappa aside). I love his "monster" sound in "The return of the giant hoghweed" ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 10:15
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The knife is what turned on th hackett in the first place...so no problem there. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: TheLamb
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 10:39
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I agree... and let's not make this an argument in which I am considered the "Hackett hater". Quite the opposite! I love him.... most of his work, atleast....
In the studio his guitar never really sounds like it's trying to kill itself... but that side of him that is just, somewhat unprofessional is still apparent (I use harsh words, I know... I couldn't find a moe gentle way of putting this). That slight "inexactness" in rythm, those subtle "misplaces of staccati" (from my point of view, they are sometimes misplaces) sometimes makes his melodies sound a bit discontinuous, and inaccurate compared to most professional guitarists... Yes, maybe that "imperfection" is part of the magic in his playing, indeed, it is sometimes MAGICAL, to say the least.... but still, sometimes (espcially live) it just sounds WRONG.
He has obviously made progress throughout the years. For instance, In my opinion, his performance on Seconds Out (77) is better than his performance in Genesis Live (72). But ALL of his live performances from the Gabriel Era especially (There are plenty on YouTube), just don't sound good to me...
Maybe the fact that he sounds more "imperfect" in the Gabriel era means that he plays like this intentionally, and as Genesis began the long walk towards the mainstream he used this "technique" less often..., or maybe it means that Hackett didn't have the money for expensive guitar equipment back in the Gabriel era... I don't know... I don't think it matters... Well this post isn't going anywhere so I might as well finish by saying that I love Hackett and he's brilliant despite all the mean things I say...
 p.s, snow dog... what do you mean? -------------
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Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 10:40
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Well I think we answered your points already.....we disagree. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: stewe
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 10:42
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Hackett is surely one my favourite guitarists. He can create the most beautiful and innventive guitar parts. But I feel when it comes to improvisations (extended soloing) or playing stuff that he didn't write, he lacks something at these points imo. But it isn't important and doesn't decrease my affection to him at all. He has his own guitar world and maybe he can't adapt for some guitar conventions or techniques. It's a bit similar case like with Howe, I admire him, but when he plays live and adds some impromptu solos or play stuff (of Rabin, Banks..) sometimes I find it even unlistenable. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/trevorrabin/?chartstyle=basic10" rel="nofollow">  <a href="http://steveer.ic.cz" rel="nofollow" |
Posted By: King Zappa
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 10:43
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There is absolutly nothing wrong with Hacket on the Knife, and there is a special place in hades for those who say otherwise. A place where weird stuff happens.... Butt stuff....
appologies to all ------------- Good, Better, Best. Never let it rest, Till your Good be Better and your Better, Best |
Posted By: TheLamb
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 10:53
ok I understand and respect that you disagree... I don't disagree with you disagreeing... just... could you further explain this post?
its intriguing... I just didn't really understand... :S -------------
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Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 11:15
| Like most others, I can't hear anything wrong with "The Knife" solo at all. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 11:19
Its probaby because like a bit of "noise" in guitar playing. You like his acoustic playing, which I am less keen on. Its a matter of taste. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: clarke2001
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 11:21
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Hackett is far from being favourite guitarist of mine, but I respect him a lot. I had just purchased Voyage Of The Acolyte yesterday, giving this guy's solo career chance for the second time; I don't like Spectral Mornings much. But I like his style. And sound. And IMHO that childish, dissonant, distorted and not-perfectly-controled guitar parts are the BEST thing Hacket did in Genesis. It fits as a counterpoint to that mellow-tron parts just nicely, adding an extra dimension to the band. Honestly. Sometimes I can almost feel the presence of some weird...ehm...jazz-rock somewhere inside the epics of "Nursery Cryme". ------------- |
Posted By: iguana
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 11:29
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well, TheLamb, welcome to one of those wonders of progressive music,
where instrumentalists and especially guitarists at times take odd twists and turns and, yes, risks in order to keep things interesting for themselves and ideally their audience. let's leave the unimaginative and bland stuff to the so-called mainstream masters like mark knopfler (*yawn*), eric clapton (*snooze*) and (latterday) santana (*boooooooooooring!*) ------------- progressive rock and rural tranquility don't match. true or false? |
Posted By: lighthouse
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 12:24
Hackett deals in atmospheres that's his style .. sometimes gritty or kinda nasty is part of that artistic approach .. I love it , always have 
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Posted By: GraemeD
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 13:12
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...There's a great solo in Dancing With The Moonlit Knight if you doubt his technical ability... Hackett was also using the 2-handed tapping technique when Eddie Van Halen was still in Nappies! He was there at the inception of sweep-picking too! He may not have played as fast as Howe... but no1 does... not even now I dont think (I'm thinking of South Side of the Sky and Close to the Edge intro in particular), with the possible exception of all those shred guys.
His (Hackett's) solo work encompasses a huge number of musical styles! Pop, prog, world music, jazz, metal, acoustic, classical.
Not a fan of his latest contribution "Wild Orchids" tho... good record, but not great.
I do love "To a Close" and "Dark Night in Toytown"
I think his Darktown album beats it tho! Gonna go put that on now!
As for VOTA... masterpiece! ------------- Shot by Darwin's Magic Bullet |
Posted By: eddietrooper
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 19:39
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I must be the only one who fully understand your point. YES, I've always thought that Hackett's playing on Genesis albums and early solo albums is somehow weird. Here are some annoying features of his playing:
- No vibrato at the end of the notes (with some exceptions of course) making the sound lifeless sometimes.
- Few string bendings. He played electric guitar like a classical guitar, pusing the notes individually.
- His sound sometimes reminds me of a synth, very mechanical.
Despite of these thoughts I don't dislike Hackett, he was really talented and inspired, but I'm sure that most of his early solos would sound much better nowadays. Just listen to his latests albums: his playing is now much more fluid and dinamic and his sound is much better, and he still keeps unmistakable, with a very personal style.
As for "The Knife" I have not heard his version.
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Posted By: soundspectrum
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 20:31
| not so much weird as it is unique |
Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 21:06
I think that was the purpose in Genesis; vibrato-less notes. You might notice Anthony Phillips also had limited use of it, with some exceptions. Anthony Phillips solo on The Knife wins for me, Hackett's solo was a bit lacking, specially the hammer-ons and the obligato solo there sounded like written on a rush IMO.
TheLamb: If you refer to that "swung effect" of the staccati in Dancing With The Moonlit Knight I think it works perfectly, in that song at least (I thought the guitar timing was delayed a bit in comparison to the accompaniment) ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: cuncuna
Date Posted: April 17 2007 at 21:13
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Again, the fact that this thread (and many others) exist is enough proof of how unique his style (in electric guitar) is. Hackett is not an average performer, but a truly creative one. That instrumental number on "Please don't touch" shows how precise can a resource be. So slow and contained, and yet so strong and impressive. I'll take Hackett's playing over any other guitarist, along with Zappa solos. ------------- ¡Beware of the Bee! |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 18 2007 at 01:42
------------- 
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Posted By: iguana
Date Posted: April 18 2007 at 03:53
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[QUOTE=Ivan_Melgar_M]
SPOT on, ivan! you have singled out the essence of hackett's playing. i am also sick of useless sting bends and vibratos twds. the final notes of the most clichéd guitar solos. post rock, anyone? ------------- progressive rock and rural tranquility don't match. true or false? |
Posted By: dedokras
Date Posted: April 18 2007 at 06:52
| totally agree with Ivan, too. |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 18 2007 at 06:59
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I have to admit...Ivan made some good points. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Aspiring hope
Date Posted: April 18 2007 at 15:16
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Hehe, when you know, you know, and fortunately Ivan does, to our mutual content, but Lamb does present a valid point, also. Back-scratching leanings apart now, I think Hackett's creative singularity isn't questioned, as the pedestal we're all building always has that in mind, including Lamb's; maybe I'm misinterpretating as well, but what's in discussion are our feelings to that unique style of playing, mainly depicted as an imperfection here - which I'm not sure about how Lamb feels exactly, but I don't see it as a necessarily flaw. Perhaps it is misplaced, but it fits the music beautifully in construction of eerie ambiences and spearheading an entire emotional distortion with the guitar's, so this case proves imperfection - if one wishes to call it so - is a manifestation of beauty. In example, I remember someone in this site saying he didn't feel Gilmour's guitar playing was that emotional, for being too clean.
Nearer to the topic: yes, I do find Hackett's guitar sounds disturbing, weird, monstruous, at times, but I love every single note that reaps my mind into fright, riding the apex of the mood established by his fellow members (in early Genesis at the least). Sadly or not, this is all I can say, seeing as I share andu's burden. -------------  |
Posted By: Flip_Stone
Date Posted: April 18 2007 at 15:35
| No. Not weird at all. But maybe you are. |
Posted By: Prayermad
Date Posted: April 18 2007 at 17:34
| I think Hacketts guitar playing is very interesting and fits well into the music that Genesis made. I'm not too sure about his solo stuff cause I haven't really explored that area, but when it comes to Genesis, he was of great importance as well as being immensely talented and inventive. |
Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: April 19 2007 at 23:52
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Nothing "weird" about Hackett's guitar playing to these ears. The man's talent is out of this world. His first four solo albums are simply amazing.
------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: BaldJean
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 10:41
I don't agree with your opinion of the live-solo in "The Knife". one of the best guitar solos ever in my book -------------  A shot of me as High Priestess of Gaia during our fall festival. Ceterum censeo principiis obsta |
Posted By: Progger
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 12:32
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I totally agree that Hackett's distorted guitar sound is annoying. He seems to lose control of his instrument when let loose. I think it's understandable that the other members kept him on a short leash and kept his soloing to a minimum. When given his freedom, his guitar tone & soloing can destroy an album ie, the GTR album.
Ivan's point are also totally flawed. Genesis where NOT a team band. In fact they were the most keyboard driven band outside of ELP. 90% of Genesis's music was keybords, drums and Rutherford's bass, acoustic and twelve string. Go to a Musical Box concert and the Hackett clone looks bored to tears. It's well documented that Hackett's ideas and guitar parts were mostly rejected by the other members. His time keeping was also suspect as evident on many early Genesis boots. I believe that was the reason he was lowered in the mix on 'Seconds Out', though that is only my belief!
First people were claiming he invented the tapping technique but it was proved it has been around since the 50's. Now people are claiming he was the first rock guitarist to use it
 Poppy cock...I suggest you go listen to some Cream albums for starters.I have seen Hackett often enough to know he is a very good guitarist but nothing exceptional!
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 12:51
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Genesis the most keyboard driven band outside ELP? What a strange conclusion, did you miss the 12-string guitars, Hackett his varied guitar work (inventive use of volume-pedal, hammering down, glissando). His interplay with Banks on Wind And Wuthering is awesome and it's a pity that the record company released Seconds Out where Hackett his contribution is almost deleted |
, you should listen to 1977 BBC W&W concert (on 2-CD bootleg), what an impressive contribution Hackett delivers 
) Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 12:55
How can you speak so much nonsensese in so little space?
One week ago you ran out of the thread (After saying Clapton was the inventor of tapping,m that hackett did nothing, etc) whem I wrote this three posts with specific quotes::
ONE
TWO:
THREE:
:
People repeatedly has proved you that
Your own contadictions are amazing inside this post, tyou say: "Genesis where NOT a team band. In fact they were the most keyboard driven band outside of ELP. 90% of Genesis's music was keybords, drums and Rutherford's bass, acoustic and twelve string."
For God's sake you say they are not a team band and you in THW SAMW SWBNTENCE SAY that they are only bass, acoustic guitar, drums and 12 strng guitar!!!!!
And you base your "informed" critics in your appreciation of the face of a tribute guitar player?????????
Really I'm tired of your trolling, you speak nonsenses and when somebody replies you you escape from the threadand search for a new thread to start your insane attacke.
Progger...GET A LIFE...........OR AT LEAST LET US LIVE!!!!!
Iván
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Please quote me one credible source that says Hackett was THE FIRST ROCK MUSICIAN to use both hands tapping technique? Chet Atkins and the like were teaching on instructional vynil in the 50's. Clapton was doing with Cream in the 60's.
Posted By: TheLamb
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 13:20
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Well I don't know how much clearer I can make this... My problem with Hackett is not sound... its that imprecision in his playing that is always apparent to me... But it maybe just me being petty... because humans are not machines, no one plays 100% tight on the click, only machines do... and if people did, it probably wouldn't sound good... While writing this post I suddenly understood something very important... Hackett would not be the same without these imperfections, and If he didn't have them I would like him less... It's just... a part of the magic... of course he COULD play the same inventive music but play it more accurately... but It wouldn't be Hackett... its just, you can't have one without the other... His inventiveness ang genius is inseparable from his bad qualities... I still think The Knife solo from Genesis Live is not a very good one... Neither are any of his solos on "Genesis Live"... but thats just my opinion... I can't stand the smallest inaccuracy in rhythm, or any sort of inaccuracy... and there are way too many big inaccuracies..... It's just annoying, although I do realize that they are a part of him, and 'I wouldn't have him any other way'... but I can't say I love that side of him... -------------
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Posted By: Progger
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 13:50
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Ivan,
It sounds like I hit a sore nerve with you and that's what the truth often does. I stand by what I wrote and am entitled to my theories and oppinions. This board isn't run by Stalinist Russia.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 14:37
But support what you say, give quotes, facts, opibnions, not just speak nonsenses without any suppot and don't lie.
We are giving you HISTORIC FACTS, you deny them and don't say why, you don't even base your opinions in Genesis shiows, but in the face of a tribute guitar player.
YOU CALL PEOPLE LIAR AND YOU DON'T SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS. YOU JUST ACCUSE AND THAT'S ALL THAT WAS A STALINIST TACTIC, YOU ACCUSED SOMEBODY OF BEING ANTI-REVOLUTIONARY AND SENT THEM TO JAIL WITHOUT ANY PROVE.
You have the right to give your opinion, but you don't have the right to say people lie or are giving flawed arguments WHEN THEY GIVE YOU FACTS AND YOU GIVE........NOTHING, that's ABUSE.
You ignore any data provided and you insist calling people liars or flawed without giving a single fact.
On other posts you have called Collaborators, Adms and members CORRUPT GENESIS MANIPULATORS and repeatedly, but when people ask you facts, you escape and come back again after a while with the same abuse.
I gave you at least 6 or 8 quotes GIVE ARGUMENTS TO PROVE ALL ARE WRONG.
..........GIVE ANY FACT......AT LEAST ONE..
Iván
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 14:50
| Ivan, don't let you provoke by Progger, his only intention is to provoke, he is one of the increasing amount of persons who has discovered Prog Archives as a perfect place to surpress their negative feelings by nailing others so they can feel superior, very poor and I am concerned that they often succeed to get reactions, I have decided to stop reacting on him, he is not worth to join a serious discussion. |
Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 14:50
Are you talking about clips on YouTube? How can you have seen him live "many times" and not see what we are talking about? ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: dralan
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 14:53
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I really dont care who says they "invented" tapping. Just the fact that Van Halen was the one who exposed it to the world on a large scale makes him a pioneer in that regard, but if you want to give Hackett a gold star for inventing it , then whatever. Anyway Hackett was and remains one of my all-time favorite guitarists. I see nothing horrible or sloppy in his playing at all. He goes for feeling and musicality first and foremost and his electric style is so unique and distinct that whatever warts and flaws there may be I dont really notice. On acoustic and classical he sounds smooth as silk to me. I dont understand the complaints myself.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:04
I agree Erik, but my problem is that this kind of abusive behaviour is making us loose valuable people.
Collaborators are being harrassed for adding bands, I may disagree with the additions and I express my arguments, but some lurkers go further and insult them until they leave.
This kind of people who does nothing for PA harrasess, insults or calls members WHO WORK HERE FOR PURE LOVE LIARS, but when it comes the time to work, they vanish as thin air.
I honestly can't care for this guy less, you are absolutely accurate, but I received comments of members and Collaborators by PM showing some discomfort with this kind of situations.
Any member must be able to give an opinion without being called liar, some new members may be afraid of being insulted without any support.
You or me won't care, we'll probably reply in a harsh way (You know we will
 ), but a newbie will maybe leave, and that's unfair.But you're right Erik better ignore him now..
 We ain't gonna take you
Never did and never will We're not gonna take you We forsake you Gonna rape you Let's forget you better still. The Who - We're not Gonna Take it. Iván -------------
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:23
| Ivan, I play guitar and last year I have worked on the solo in Firth Of Fifth and the acoustic pieces Horizons and Blood On The Rooftops. I can tell you that I was stunned by the very tasteful way Hackett succeeds to blend different styles and techniques, he has a blues heart, he was also impressed by Robert Fripp ("he named it musical karate"), he was classically trained but also interested in using sensational effect pedals, all these elements can be traced in his varied and dynamic guitar style. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:29
After many years I bought a good and expensive guitar (Well a guy owed me money and had nothing, so he offered me one from his store -instead of loosing everything, well, I accepted-), and after almost 20 years, I'm working trying to learn the tapping technique.
It's much more harder than working with flashes, sometimes I give up after 2 or 3 hours with finger pain because it's exhausting.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:31
Well, once I hope to learn to play piano 
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Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:36
Electric guitar? ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:39
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I play Spanish/classical guitar and I have even had some flamenco guitar lessons, that's my second best favorite music, once I hope to found a Dutch Prog Andaluz band featuring guest musician Arjen Lucassen on slide guitar |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:41
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Electro Acustic.
The electric mics (Very flat, chips almnost like paper added in the fingerboard and inside the guitar) can be added without a plug that affect the integrity of the wood, the mics are very small but very powerfull.
I know it's not the best way to learn it, but according to the ,manuals it works......now it's only a matter of talent or lack of it.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:43
So you're like Maurice Leenaars ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:46
Those are tough to play, the strings are tense as hell and your fingers start to set fire after 15 minutes
.Your fingers at first are meant to hurt, so a "hard shell" develops at the tips. Then, it will be quite easy to do it. Remember, baby steps ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:48
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Don't tell me about the fingers, I already notoiced it, now are red and with little skin, the next step is what we call in spanish CALLO (hard shell I believe).
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 15:51
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So you're good to go put your fingers on the hot iron and you won't notice a thing ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: Atomic_Rooster
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 16:28
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If your fingers hurt that much, then you haven't been playing consistently enough or haven't fixed the tension or action. I practice around 30 mins to an hour a day and don't feel pain when I play for 2-3 hours straight. ------------- I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 16:33
Yes, probably, I'm tunniing it and graduating the tension with the mic adaptor (still don't trust that much in my ears) but it's normal when you started two weeks ago, but yes normally they hurt after the first hour and a half.
At my age (42) it's only for fun, not to be a pro LOL.
Iván
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 16:36
| For me it took many, many years before I could really play something to impress my friends and family, it's a long and tough road if you want to play guitar seriously! |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 16:45
I have only found documentary evidence that two-handed tapping has been in use since 1969.
Single-handed tapping has been around much longer - perhaps as far back as the violinist Locatelli - but what you can do with it is limited in comparison, so it's fair to consider two-handed tapping as a newer (and different) technique.
Which tracks?
Or are you still referring to single-handed tapping?
I've been trying to find out where Hackett might have got the idea for two-handed tapping from, and have pretty much turned a blank - I can't even link him to Emmett. ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: StyLaZyn
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 17:08
His weirdness is unique. ------------- 
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Posted By: Hacketeer
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 17:43
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Nothing controversial from me, Hackett is one of my favourite players, I find it difficult to fault any of his playing. ------------- "Just keep me nose clean, egg, chips & beans, I'm always full of steam" |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 17:46
When Hackett left Genesis in 1977, for many progheads Hackett sol was the 'real Genesis' and if you listen to especially Voyage Of An Acolyte and Spectral Mornings, it is the real symphonic prog Genesis 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 18:11
That's a good point Erik, Genesis sounds more keyboard oriented than they really are (Despite it's clear Tony was never a fan of soloing) beause the guitar sounded almost as a second keyboard.
As Cert explained the double handed tapping technique is hitting the strings almost as a piano key, so Hackett solos are usually mistaken for keyboards, take Firth of Fifth, I have a cousin who is an amazing metal guitar player, he's like 10 years younger than me so he always came to my house to borrow me the Maiden or Sabbath albums.
One day he came while I was listening Firth of Fifth,and he just couldn't believe Steve's solo was guitar, I had to take my DVD copy of one Gabriel Genesis era concert (Belgium TV) and when the camera focused on Steve's fingers then and only then he believed me it was really a guitar with no aditional device.
He talked me about the fabulous MIDI guitar module he just got (You attach this gear to your guitar or bass to make it sound like a second keyboard.....Martin Rosser uses it with Magenta) but he never knew that in the 70's somebody was making that kind of sound, with nothing except his fingers, it's not what he would ever play but his jaw was in the floor.
This atmosphere started to fade not when Steve left, but already in The Lamb, when their sound changed radically to return in lesser degree with ATOTT and more clearly in W&W.
So Geensis sound was not a product of Tony OR Steve, was a joint effort of Tony AND Steve combining their sounds, amazing team work.
When Hackett left Genesis, neither Mike on studio (more limited as guitar player even when a very solid bass player) or Daryll on stage (Great Jazz player though), but Steve continued using the same technique so he blended with almost every keyboardist he played with, I believe he does the exact work with Julian Colbeck in Tokyo Tapes, but Tony had nobody to work this with him.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 18:17
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Funny to read your story Ivan because so many progheads are confused when they listen to 76-77 Genesis: it's very hard to recognize the sound of a guitar and a keyboard! By the way, I hope a record company will release the BBC 1977 live recordings of the W&W tour because it does justice to Hackett his awesome contribution to Genesis rather than the poor Seconds Out on which, as you mentioned, it's like as if somebody has lowered the volume button of Hackett his amplifier |
Posted By: Snow Dog
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 18:57
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I have never had a problem hearing Hackett in Genesis. Its why I became such a big fan of his, before he went solo.
Thing is when I used to say to my friends how much I enjoyed his playing, they'd comment on how you could rarely hear him.
It was then that Irealised that people hear things in different ways. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Snow_Dog" rel="nofollow">
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 21 2007 at 19:02
That's a good wish, seems for what I seen and read that the relations were not good with Steve since the W&W sessions, if you got the Genesis Live Film (With Bruford), seems to me like a band formed by three friends (Tony, Phil and Mike) plus two guests Steve playing very far froom them in the left and Bill Bruford on who the camera hardly focus.
Some statements done made this issue seem suspicious:
I don't know if it's a joke, I want to think so, but the instrument that suffers more in that supposedly polished mix is Steve's guitar.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Progger
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 02:27
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Ivan,
Why do you think you can bully people around on this site just because their oppinions difffers to yours? It's the agressive tone of your posts that will drive people away from the forums, not my oppinions of which I am entitled to! Learn to accept that not everyone thinks Genesis are the bees knees. It seems it's OK to have threads bashing ELP [a much better band than Genesis IMO] but as soon as anything is said negative about Genesis a pack mentality develops and there are calls for people to be banned. What makes this forum great is freedom of speech and to express oppinions, whether you like Genesis or not.
I will re-phrase one point that annoyed you. ''The lead instrument in Genesis music was 95% keyboard'', and that is not a team band by any stretch of the imagination IMO. I stand by my statement that Genesis were the most keyboard driven band outside of ELP. It's well documented that Hackett was often frustrated in the studio due to his ideas being ignored. Suerly you don't need me to supply a reference?
I have never said anything derogatory about Hackett. In fact I said he is a very good guitar player but not exceptional. His technique is often flawed & could not improvise beyond what was rehearsed. I have witnessed it myself when he tried to play an unreheared blues jam with some unfamiliar musicians. When Stuerner joined, Genesis would often jam out on stage for twenty minutes or more! I have seen Hackett live on numerous occasions but he has always 'played it safe' by sticking to what was rehearsed & the songs have absolutely no variation from the studio recordings.
Also, despite my extensive research to back up Hackett's claims, Van Halen has never said that he was influenced by him. Here's a quote I found,'' Jimmy Page's landmark guitar solo on the song ''Heartbreaker'' was my inspiration for the trademark 2-hand clapping technique'' [Eddie Van Halen, 92]
You may also be interested to know that this technique is sometimes known by guitar connosoirs as ''w**kery'' and is quite easy to learn. ......just something I read whilst researching the technique!
Peace!
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 03:59
Remarkable Ivan what you told about Tony Banks and his 'Steve Hackett' joke. Tony Banks is infamous for his passive agression so I won't be surprised if it was more than a joke  ....
By the way, did you realise that the instrumental part of The Cinema Show was a first sign of the And Then There Were Three line-up? I noticed that during the latest The Musical Box gig (SEBTP tour) when only Rutherford, Collins and Banks remained on stage to do their captivating instrumental interplay as .... a trio
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Posted By: Tales
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 07:40
| I prefer his solo career over his Genesis output but it's all good. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 10:49
Other techniques too - particularly alternate picking, or "Shredding" have unfortunately come to be known under the term you used, simply because of the number of guitarists who use the techique by way of technical bluff, rather than in a tasteful and artistic manner.
However, some sources (including the highly accurate Wikipedia...) note that Eddie got inspiration from Jimmy Page performing pull-offs on an open string - Page did not use the "tapping" technique, so this link is almost entirely erroneous.
It is entirely possible that Van Halen had never heard Hackett, but it seems doubtful that Hackett would make the claim that Eddie got the idea from him without evidence or personal acknowledgement. Don't forget that when Rock stars do reviews, they're usually thinking off (the tops of) their heads...
Did you remember which Cream songs contain two-handed tapping, because I've just been listening to "Disraeli Gears" and can't hear any.
 ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: TheLamb
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 15:07
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Well Heartbreaker could be tapped with two hands but its unnecissary... my bands guitarist showed me and it could also be done with one hand aswel...
As for the argument about Steve Hackett inventing tapping I agree with the guy who said it dosen't matter. I also agree with the guy who said that the other guy is just trying to provoke the other other guy because he is silly :P It would be best if things would not get personal, IMO.
Well... during this thread my opinions have changed about Hackett... not because of anything specific people said in this thread... I just came to acceptance with the fact that he sometimes dosen't sit perfectly tight on the rythm and dosen't always hit the exact notes when he pulls, ect... Its just OK. It's a part of his style and although it is not a very good attribute in itself, together with the way Hackett plays the guitar, it's simply OK... And ofcourse he has all the good attributes which have been widely spoken of in this thread so there is no need to repeat them...
To the guy who said tapping isn't that difficult.... Bullsh*t... Well, single handed tapping is indeed considered easy, but that has exceptions aswel... As for two handed tapping... Well most beginner guitarists CAN play two handed tapping... It's not one of those techniques that the very basics of require great techincal ability. But playing complex and non-static tapping patterns is HARD. And if your talking about the usage of tapping in an artistic and emotional way, no one, and I mean NO ONE (that I have heard of) does it better than Hackett...
I have a non related question for Ivan... What reason do you have to believe that Tony Banks wasn't a fan of soloing?
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Posted By: Fight Club
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 15:12
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Umm.... I like his playing. It is kinda weird though. But compared to other prog bands? It's not weird at all. I never really liked his tone however. ------------- 
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Posted By: Atomic_Rooster
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 16:51
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Steve's a pretty good guitarist, but he's not a pyrotechnics wiz; in that I mean he is not as technically proficient as Steve Vai or whomever, but he had a pretty good ear for melody, so... its a matter of preference at that point. My only gripes about his playing style is that his solos are low energy and not nearly as good as his soli parts with the keyboard. I would put him in a similar category with Brian may from Queen, who also was not the most energetic soloist, but has a beautiful melodic style. However, Steve is inferior to Brian in the soloing department. Especially in "The Musical Box" (GASP) his solo starts out great, but falls off on the end, dropping the baton that had juggled around frenetically in the band up until that point. For someone who could write great melodies and wrote out most of his solos ahead of time, why are his solos not as good as Brian's? i dont know. i will concede that the energy in "The Musical Box" solo is pretty good until the middle part where Steve just twiddles around, almost leaving the key for no apparent reason, its like just got lazy and didn't feel like making the solo awesome by writing out the rest of it well. ------------- I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 17:00
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Time to make some replies, some pleasent, and other not so in the first one will only make a couple of precisions:
Now to a more pleasent issue:
Now Cert:
One more
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Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 17:02
I agreed with some of what you and Progger said. Tony was a fan of soloing, in fact many times you might notice that he wanted to be the main soloist of the band (although Hackett had his share of solos: Fountain Of Salmacis, Musical Box, Can-utility and The Coastliners, part of Supper's Ready, Firth Of Fifth); it was more evident by the time of Selling England By The Pound and later in Wind & Wuthering Tony was the main soloist in Genesis all the way, while Hackett was put on the isolated corner more than often. ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 17:12
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Did you know that when Hackett left, Allan Holdsworth was asked to join Genesis on tour but he refused so Daryll Stuermer was second choice. |
Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 17:20
I would dare say that Holdsworth's guitar sound was very similar to that of Hackett (in comparison to Daryl Stuemmer, that is -saving also the obvious differences in technique and approach) in that the "tapping" was very present (while Holdsworth's "tapping" manifested itself in playing legato, without breaking the notes with alternate picking.. it wouldn't be called tapping perse but it's a sort of hammering on the fret without picking); I believe Holdsworth would had been a great choice for Genesis' gigs ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 17:29
Maybe a better choice, but as Bruford before, I don't believe Holdsworth would had acceptefd to be the eternal Genesis session musician only for live gigs.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 17:34
Perhaps if not given all the freedom he would had wanted. One of the reasons he didn't accept, I reckon, is because he likes to do his work without any sort of "leash". ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 17:43
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It's so weird because I love Hackett and I don't like Holdsworth his guitar sound so I was stunned that Holdsworth was asked to replace Hackett, like Chick Corea was asked to replace Rick Wakeman in 1974 ... |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 18:51
Hey Erik, that would be an interesting thread!!!
Who were invited, almost made it or auditioned with a famous band?
Like
And hundreed of other cases. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Atomic_Rooster
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 20:10
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Changing up Hackett for a shiny new Holdsworth might have been a good move for Genesis. Holdsworth is a technically much better guitarist (its like comparing Eric Clapton to Stevie Ray Vaughn or John McLaughlin - Clapton just doesn't stand a chance) and is also a much better improviser. Holdsworth, McLaughlin, and Al DiMeola may very well be the three best fusion guitarists of all time (I'm talking about technical skill coupled with improvisational chops). I have heard and seen Hackett and Holdsworth many times and Hackett is in Holdsworth's dust as far as improvisation and dynamic playing is concerned. Of course Holdsworth's style may not have meshed well with Genesis, but it would be very interesting to hear (Phil Collins did play with Brand x after all) And Ivan, when you just quoted Progger and told him you weren't bullying him with your cute blue fonts, you were bullying him, which doesn't make for a very good "intellectual discussion" atmosphere, but rather enforces a playground mentality of who shouts the loudest and complains the most. Oh yeah, a final word: don't believe everything you see in the news or published in a magazine; have you ever heard of tabloids? They publish false information purposely to make money and controversy. I'm not saying that your Van Halen quote is invalid, but there is reasonable doubt as to whether it is true or not. People rarely sue magazines for publishing incorrect information, unless it is blatantly offensive. Besides, I wouldn't trust old Eddie to have a perfect memory about those kinds of things. And even if Eddie claims Steve as an influence, it doesn't make Steve the creator or even innovator of the technique in rock (and it doesn't mean he necessarily was any good at it). All that aside, Steve's a good player but not one of my top 15 ------------- I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers. |
Posted By: william314159
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 21:32
| my two cents is that hackett is a tremendous composer, innovator, creater of sounds, etc., but as a technical musician, he is not a machine like your vais, satrianis, petruccis, morses, etc.... thus his live work will have technical imperfections |
Posted By: william314159
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 21:36
gabirel in happy the man would have been incredible!!! I'm imagining solo era gabriel with happy the man providing instrumental accompaniament. sweet lord why didn't that happen?
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 22:44
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Posted By: Atomic_Rooster
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 23:06
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In reply to Ivan's rather lengthy reply: You seem to have taken my post the wrong way. I mean to attack on you person; my intent was merely to keep the focus of this thread on Steve Hackett and his style, which I believe it was intentionally supposed to be, and not a forum for argument over whether or not he invented any given technique. Though, since you are standing by your position that Hackett was the first rock musician to use tapping, I must disagree with verifiable proof. Guitar Player Magazine (in an article written in 1970) that Randy Resnick of Pure Food and Drug Act (with John Mayall) used tapping techniques in concert and recordings as early as 1969, though he may not have originated the use in rock. Check it out if you doubt me, But it doesn't really matter if Hackett innovated the technique for rock or not, he was very influential in its use as it is today (for better or worse), as he served to popularize a more aggressive implementation of such techniques in a rock atmosphere. And finally, bringing the topic back to the initial question of the thread, yes, Hackett's style is weird, in that it is non-traditional, but prog and rock in general has room for all kinds of guitarists; in fact, one of my favorite is the very eccentric and lately departed "Snakefinger" Lithman who guested often with The Residents. But, as our Existentialist and Deconstructionist friends say, its all a matter of subjective opinion, and doesn't matter at all in the course of events. ------------- I am but a servant of the mighty Fripp, the sound of whose loins shall forever be upon the tongues of his followers. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 23:11
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Please Atomic Rooster, before calling me a bully, check Mr PROGGER'S history and notice I haven't changed a word or even the size of the font of his posts.
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if you haven't read at least 20 posts provoking and attacking or even calling Administrators, Collaborators and Members liars, corrupts, manipulators, Genesis fanboys, then please don't guess who bullies.
Progger comes once every several months to cause problems and when proved wrong vanishes in thin air for a couple of months just to start again.
You want proves? Here they are:
Progger wrote on March 22, 2006:
Calling sh!t to what other members like is BULLYING. Of course Mr. Progger escaped from the thread.
Progger wrote on March 16, 2006, without nobody having even mentioned him:
Of course his post was meaningless in a meaningless thread, but read the red highlighted part of his post....ISN'T THIS BEING AN ARROGANT BULLY???
Not happy with that he replied to Ivan Frost (Trickster):
Of course he made a fool of himself. Progger wrote about Prog Archives:
Just in case, in the thread http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20117&KW=Genesis&PN=2 - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20117&KW=Genesis&PN=2 Tony R proved that Progger used another nickname with his own computer to support his insults and praise hinself, so not only wanted to make problems, but cheated.
I could go with even worst, but it's enough to prove who comes once in a while to provoke people and then tuns to start the same exact nonsense on another thread, so please if you don't know this member's history, please don't call me a bully, check all his posts.
Yes, I loose the patience with him, but he won't scare me ouyut, a new member who receives this treatment may leave and that bothers me, we have lost many valuable members because of harrassment ibn the past years and I don't want this to happen again.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 23:14
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Atomic Rooster, I have no problem with your opinion or taste, as long as you keep the forms, you may say whatever you want.
I have repeated constantly I don't like most King Crimson, so if I say something so hard about an icon, why shouuld I annoy when somebody talks about the bands I like.
Your opinion and even Progger's is valuable, but when he calls people corrupt or liars, as he has done rpepeatedly...then I have a problem.
Now about being weird.....Prog is essentially weird in comparison with mainstream, the music is complex, the songs are ussually 4 or 5 times longer than the average, the times are weird, the lyrics are not simple, is full of changes and blends of styles...ergo it's weird.
Hackett is not a common performer, his style is different, he's more worried about atmospheres and band playing than in making long solos, his music is even darker than most of Symphonic musicians.
So yes, he's weird because his music escapes to the average parameters, I have absolutely no problem with that........But hey...weird id good, if not we would be listening Rap and Hip Hop instead of this complex and hard to find music..
Thanks
Iván -------------
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Posted By: MadcapLaughs84
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 23:15
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He's a great guitar player, one of the factors that make me enjoy Genesis. But I don't think he's weird, maybe he has a funny face, like a comedy movie guy, but he's an awesome musician. ------------- 
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Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: April 22 2007 at 23:21
No he doesn't... he looks like Gianluigi Buffon
(a girl who I was in love with happened to love him What does she see in him anyway) ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 23 2007 at 03:22
Single-handed vs two-handed tapping:
The reason it's a big(gish) deal is that single-handed tapping has been in use practically since the invention of stringed instruments, but it's only been since the invention of the electric guitar pickup that it's been at all possible to use two hands on the fretboard and create any kind of performable sound.
The effect, as has been pointed out earlier, is not unlike the sound of a keyboard - hence much of Hackett's playing blends in with Bank's keyboards: Hackett's has never been an overtly virtuosic style, and was never intended to be - he seems to have always tried for the ambient; to create new, smooth and keyboard-like sounds from the guitar, and in that, he succeeded beyond almost any other guitarist of the time in creating a new sound. To me, that's the same as inventing a new technique.
Hackett seems to have not only used it in solos, but as a (tasteful, IMO) textural device during pieces that's both innovative and creative.
There are obvious exceptions - Hackett could ROCK too, as his solo in "The Musical Box" (among others) shows, and it seems to be the Rock solos he is judged on - but if you listen to the more subtle stuff he did, it was ahead of its time - although, granted, somewhat clumsy in places.
The clumsiness hardly matters, since it's obvious he was blazing a trail - just as any Judas Priest fan forgives them the even greater clumsiness on their early albums for the same reason. And besides, as every musician knows, sometimes it's the slips and accidents in the studio that become the best parts of a piece of music!
The other Steve H (Hillage) was also remarkable for creating ambient guitar sounds, but not as well-known until he joined Gong. The Arzachel album (which predates Hackett-era Genesis) is a stunning display of what Hillage could make a guitar sound like - completely different in style, of course, but with a very similar end goal.
So I don't think Hackett's guitar work was/is wierd, per se - more like very creative, and with a deeply personal style (you can spot a Hackett solo a mile off!). Among the huge plethora of Page imitators of the time, a personal style is valuable commodity!
I'm not so convinced by the Holdsworth option - a fine guitarist, but possibly too overt and "busy" (in a non-derogatory sense) for the more intimate and relaxed sound of Genesis? ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 23 2007 at 03:54
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Indeed, the hammer/pull technique, both one and two-hand, has been around almost as long as stringed intstruments (especially in the Flamenco traditions). Hackett was the first electric rock guitarist on an album to distinctly utilize a linear, two-handed extension of it as a method of effect. What Eddie then did with it was much like what Hendrix did with other techniques (with the help of powerful amplification); he highlighted it, brought it to the foreground and used it as a source of phrasing (sometimes spontaneous), taking up where Hackett and others (Jeff Beck) seemed to stop. EVH also developed a 'slapping' maneuver heard on the opening moments of the 'Fair Warning' album. Eddie called these things 'neat noises' and though he rarely credited Beck or Hendrix, it is in this family of sound pyrotechnics that EVH was able to capitalize on Hackett's 'little trick'. Hackett was far more of a traditional guitarist and therefore smoothly incorporated the technique into the music, and became more of a harmonizer in Genesis than a lead guitarist -- much like Jimmy Page's role evolved in Zeppelin.
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Posted By: Progger
Date Posted: April 23 2007 at 21:45
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Certified,
I recently read an article about Eric Clapton using the 'Tapping' technique in Cream but cannot remember exactly where. I'm one of those people that visits a magazine store once a week and will 'flip' thru the various muso mags without actually buying them! I wonder how many of us actually do that? I mean, those magazine prices are ridiculous. I wish I had bought the article though as I know I don't have anything to back up my claim without it.
Ivan,
You have really gone to great lenghs to try and discredit me and get me banned. Those quotes you have dug up are months old and I was told at the time by the administrators to tone it down or be banned. You should have noticed that I have mellowed since!
Personally, I don't think that interview article gives much credence to your statement that Van Halen was influenced by Hackett. As I have said on many occasions, if someone says something often and loudly enough, people will start to believe it.
Today I bought three of the new SACD releases, W & W, TOTT and Duke. I opted not to buy the box set as I never liked ATWT & Ababcab & I know that even better sound quality wouldn't change my oppinions on those two albums. Listening to W & W in particular on SACD & DVD-A shows Hackett in a new light & his guitar parts are more distinguishable from the keyboards. I'm surprised he decided to quit after that album as he seems to be more prominent on that release than anything previous. I was also drawn to the songwriting credits and was again surprised that he wrote quite a 'chunk' of that album.
Wind And Wuthering has always been my favourite Genesis album and know doubt Hackett must take some credit for that. He still dosn't make my top 5 though but he is A VERY GOOD GUITARIST!
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 23 2007 at 23:37
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: April 23 2007 at 23:39
Amazing how an opinion can change once you actually listen to an artist. 
------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: April 23 2007 at 23:45
Again.. might had been the usual one-hand tapping, so the question remains. ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: King Mango
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 00:04
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Hackett is one of those guys who goes "solo-less" in my mind. (Like Lindsey Buckingham for example) A weaver of great melodies, but no solo at all stands out as making me stop and give over to it status as a "masterpiece" of technical execution. His is more emotion and expression over self indulgence perhaps?
But admittedly I don't listen to much Genesis and none of his solo work except for a tune here or there heard at a friend's house. My buddy Glen was ALWAYS trying to convert me at an early age into a Genesis legionnaire but I was too busy trying to get the timing down for Jacob's Ladder back then. >< Any guitarists out there want to toss a suggestion for me to pay attention to? To whoever it was that hailed Steve Howe as the fastest guitarist, I have a list for you ;) ------------- Best regards, King Mango |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 00:17
Ron Jarzombek for tech, Kaki King for innovation. |
Posted By: Chus
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 00:23
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Fareed Haque for versatility ------------- Jesus Gabriel |
Posted By: william314159
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 00:31
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i think that if you want to go with the best musicianship (i said musicianship, not composition) you need to go with the fusion masters- morse, di meola, coryell, abercrombie, holdsworth, gambale, etc. |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 04:17
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I trawled a few sites to try to link Clapton to tapping - as it does seem somewhat remarkable that Hackett was first to use this technique - and there were some references to "Crossroads" - but, as http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkm9OiYvmPc - this video ("Crossroads") and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rHMCfEhdX1E - this video ("Tales of Brave Ulysses") demonstrate (at 3:00, you could be forgiven for thinking you were listening to two-handed tapping), the playing is quick, but the technique is not used - in fact, it's not even tapping - it's string-bending combined with alternate picking.
It's a damned good excuse to enjoy some Cream at their best, though!
Here's the Page solo in " http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXOenfTgovM - Heartbreaker ", in case there's any doubt (and because it's amazing). See how close Page comes to two-handed tapping, by combining single-handed tapping with "nut-bending" (he used this technique on Led Zep II, so don't be put off by the fact that the film that the clip comes from was released in 1976).
I couldn't track down any evidence that the technique was used by the Bluesbreakers - but that is among the first of places that I would look. I wouldn't be surprised if they used single-handed tapping - especially since that's an old technique.
I couldn't even find evidence of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W44qPieIzDk - this man performing two-handed tapping, much as I half-expected to - although he practically patented http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxVH-Y0SJAM - many styles single-handed , and the first clip clearly shows that he wasn't averse to using things other than the plectrum to pick the strings, and that it wasn't entirely for show!
Back to Hackett's guitar work - my favourite of his solo albums are Spectral Mornings and Voyage of the Acolyte - so here are some clips from both
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUo0RFJ6CTU - Ace of Wands (Voyage of the Acolyte) - note how he uses the guitar mainly in a textural way; it's almost always a part of layers with keyboards or mandolin. Note also, around 4:15 the two techniques he uses - the camera helpfully shows these very clearly. OK, bottlenecks are nothing new, and it doesn't take any special skill to play that way - but that's still a great sound, and it's a very creative use of it (and what he does before the bottleneck is remarkable too).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elUZdlKqBco - Anyway (Spectral Mornings) - again the focus is on the sound, with excellent volume control - although the modal scales and effects also help give an exotic or even ethereal sound. Shame it's so short!
These two clips show that Steve's work is primarily focussed in two areas;
1. Creating a sound/texture that will blend in with the music around it.
2. Creating strong melodies that also have a degree of unpredictability about them, with the emphasis on the melody.
None of his work is about overt showmanship - it seems to be more about introspection and the search for personal space.
Talking about Crossroads, as I was earlier, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM10R979ZXg - THIS is about showmanship (and includes two-handed tapping)
...OK, part of this is just an excuse to share great music - but on the whole, the point is to show just how different Hackett's style is from his predecessors - although the techniques the bluesmen used may seem antiquated now, these examples should illustrate perfectly that it's not so much what they did (although much of it is still amazing), but how they did it, and why Hackett is actually rather wierd in comparison.
Finally, if there's anyone still wondering if two-handed tapping is that much of a big deal, take a look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6NA9nd4Fgs - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6NA9nd4Fgs ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 04:57
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Good post Cert. Good use of video's. ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: King Mango
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 07:09
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Interesting sidebar about tapping but...
For all your video posting, left (assuming left=frettinghand) handed tapping has been around as long as there's been fretted instruments. It's called legato. HOWEVER, I'd be very interested in seeing the earliest example of TWO handed tapping. IMO that's what really revolutionized guitar sound. I know this may not be the proper place or time, but for anyone interested in virtuoso guitar with the utmost consideration to melody, check out a youtube playlist I started a few months ago. I've never ever (yes, never ever) been discouraged or disgusted with my abilities but these guys come close... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddn4MGaS3N4&feature=PlayList&p=583BB74BD1E7C2A6&index=0&playnext=1 - Guitarists click at own risk... ------------- Best regards, King Mango |
Posted By: Certif1ed
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 08:52
No, legato is something else - while it is correct that single handed tapping is a legato style, legato simply means to play smoothly, and there are several ways to do that on a guitar.
Actually, the main focus of my exploration is into two-handed tapping, specifically whether Steve Hackett was first to use it in Rock, and who else, apart from Emmett Chapman used it before Hackett did in "Return of the Giant Hogweed".
You may need to go back a post or two...  ------------- The important thing is not to stop questioning. |
Posted By: King Mango
Date Posted: April 24 2007 at 09:04
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hehe I didn't mean to imply hammer-ons and pull-offs were the ONLY way to achieve legato. For instance when you play the 32nd notes in La Alborada, you use the fleshy parts of your picking fingers to soften the attack.
I'm actually going to start asking around some of my more informed friends and see if we can't try and nail something down. :rockon: ------------- Best regards, King Mango |