The Future of Prog

Ok Cert, when somebody talks about Genesis in a Prog' forum I assume (don't do the same game of words again ) we'retalking aboutthe 5 or at least 4 men era, because the 3 men era is anything except progressive or Genesis.

But still I don't see Trespass as continuity of sound of FGTTR, the first Genesis album is piano based, full of simple and shorter tunes, catchy lyrics, it has Konathan King's signature, Trespass is absolutely different.

Yes Collins and Hackett are not in the band yet, but Phillips has a very similar atmospheric sound to Hackett's and Mayhew wasn't a bad drummer, not good as Collins but there are few in the level of Collins.

The lyrics are much deep than in FGTTR, and to be honest I don't see any darnes in the debut Genesis album, sounds more like the early Bee Gees than to a prog' band.

But there's no problem, maybe I was on another thing at the moment I answered your first post.

Iván

I've never had a problem with Phil Collins. As a matter of fact, I enjoyed his first solo album and even a few tunes from later Genesis albums. Before my re-discovery of prog, I always considered him one of the better POP singers out there. Prince or Phil Collins? I never had to think about it.

The debate is interesting, though.

As far as I'm concerned, to say Trespass is better than anything Radiohead has done is a major insult to Radiohead.  Trespass is a decent album, but it's the sound of a band still trying to find it's feet and define it's sound, much like Radiohead's debut Pablo Honey (the only RH album I'd put in the same league as Trespass).  The Bends is arguably the best straight forward rock album ever, and every single song (well besides maybe Sulk) is amazing.  I guarentee you all that there's not a person on this forum who could see them play Street Spirit live (as I did) and not be totally blown away.  Ok Computer is an incredible art-rock album, featuring Paranoid Android (arguably the best 90s prog track).  Airbag is a perfect album opener, The Tourist is a perfect closer, Karma Police is a definitive single, Exit Music, No Surprises and Let Down are hearbreakingly beautiful, Electioneering and Lucky are great rockers, and Climbing Up the Walls and Fitter Happier are haunting.  I personally prefer The Bends, but this is one of the definitive 90s rock albums.  And how did they follow up two of the best albums ever released?  With a third.  Kid A is one of the most engaging, haunting, gorgeous albums ever, with a dense, electronic feel that you won't find anywhere else.  It was so good that they were albe to release an album of stuff that they recorded for Kid A but didn't put on it, and pass it off as another solid full length release.  That release (Amnesiac) contains some stunning tracks like Pyramid Song and Dollars and Cents, and while it's not up to par with the previous 3, it's still better than Trespass.  Hail to the Thief is another classic, and while slightly more conventional, is still a brilliant experimental rock album, with one of the best songs ever recorded (2+2=5) opening it.  The only Genesis release I'd put on par with Radiohead is Foxtrot, although to compare them is somewhat ridiculous.

Sorry about that rant, I just care very passionately about this subject.

Peter Rideout wrote:

4 Many of the Collins haters here seem to "retroactively" hate him -- they don't like what the band later became with him as the frontman, and they don't like Collins' solo work (fair enough -- I don't like that stuff much either) therefore everything he ever sang/wrote with Genesis automatically becomes garbage. (See the treatment accorded the average Phil-sung song in reviews of classic Genesis here.)

Agree with you, I don't like Collins voice, it sounds flat to me, I believe he never could sing Battle for the Epping Forest doing more than ten different voices like Peter did, but I believe he's a decent vocalist and a hell of a drummer.

His voice is perfect for transitional stuff like ATOTT (except Dance on a Volcano, the only song from that album I would love to listen with Gabriel´s voice. He was part of my favorite band and did an excellent job behind the drum kit and a backing vocalist.

I even like one of his albums (W&W) much more than Selling England, SEBTP has More Fool Me and W&W has Your own Special way, so both are even in bad tracks, but 11Th Earl and One for the Vine are masterpieces.

squirm when people write things here like "This album is definitely better than that one!" What they mean, or should say, of course, is "I like this album much more than that one." Beware of absolute statements (they often employ words like "best, only, every, all, none, never, always, worst," etc.)

I did this when answering the Radiohead comparison, so I'm sorry about that, I'll re-phrase, IMHO there's no Radiohead album that comes near to any Gabriel era Genesis albums and W&W.

My opinion about Radiohead is that's a good band, not Prog' but very good even when it's a bit overrated, but again this is my personal opinion.

Iván

Ivan - I assume you know that Collins didn't play on Trespass either (your posts imply otherwise...) 

All the seeds are there on FGTR, to my ears - I'm not familiar with early Bee Gees, but, string arrangements aside, I hear much the same band on the two albums but with a rockier feel and a darker edge overall on Trespass. "In The Beginning" is the ideal comparison track, as it has a dark keyboard opening, and is darker as a song (IMO) than "Looking for Someone".

There are other dark moments on FGTR that stop it being a flower-power hippy album - edges to the overall "happy" feel that I think King over-emphasised with those horrible string sections, and probably studio direction.

The lyrics are deeper on Trespass, but thematically, they are very similar - the same words and imagery keep cropping up - and they are obviously written by the same person (I don't mean obviously as in reading the credits on the album, I mean a simple scan of the lyrics makes certain points jump out at me).

This looks like an interesting side discussion, on the similarities and differences between the two albums - King's influence is thankfully gone on Trespass, but John Mayhew's drumming isn't an awful lot better than his predecessor, Jon Silver.

The piano-driven sound is still there, Banks being the central pillar of Genesis that he always has been, but on Trespass, it's simply lower in the mix. The piano features strongly on all the early Genesis albums... why am I telling this to an afficiando...?

Peter Rideout again makes an excellent point that I have been struggling to find 'good' words for for ages; "Beware of absolute statements". I'm as guilty as anyone - but I hope you never see me post anything like "Band X is better than band Y", as such statements only lead to confrontation, cannot easily be defended and generally p155 people off.

Useful_Idiot - (Back on topic at last!!!) your passion for Radiohead's music seems even greater than mine!

Personally I think their music goes the next step beyond "neo-prog", in that it is more "reductionalist". Radiohead start with fairly conventional song structures and instrumentation on "Pablo Honey", strip it down on "The Bends" - but at the same time experiment with new sounds and styles. "Iron Lung" is so stylistically different to "Street Spirit" and "Just" that you might think you were listening to different bands if it wasn't for Yorke's unmistakable voice. Also, there are tracks on the "Iron Lung" EP which, for me, are so evocative of dream sequences, places and atmospheres that I hear it very much as the new prog. "Lozenge of Love" particularly stands out for me.

Kid A illustrates some of my previous points perfectly - I won't cover any of it, as you've done a great job, but this is what I was getting at when I said that they were "purely" making music - they threw away all of the "OK Computer" styles and anything before it to deliberately create new music in new and interesting ways. They even gave the album away via internet download before it was released - to me this is a very progressive approach, while entirely in keeping with the old ideals. The fact that people subsequently went and bought enough copies to propel it up the album charts speaks volumes, as there is no "pop" music on that album.

Whether it's better or worse than anything Genesis wrote is a moot point, as it is subjective. Whether it's prog or not is up to people who like prog - we have the power to decide what prog is, as there is no concrete definition anywhere!!

philippe wrote: Prog has no future. It belongs to the past. There are bands who are influenced by this genre but does it mean that they are prog ?...I'm very doubtful about that.

So are you saying that prog as a genre only applies to bands of a certain time period, rather than a style of music?

I don't see how that can be, as there were many bands in that time period that were not prog.

...or am I missing something?

Peter Rideout wrote: James Lee wrote: Peter Rideout wrote: I would pick some of the purveyors of gansta rap (gag) or  death metal (retch) as candidates for that title! Death Metal is definitely the best!  Tsk tsk! Deaf Mental, eh James? That explains your recent anger and vitriol.... You'll be bedwetting, lighting fires, and torturing small animals next (all psychological indicators of the budding murderous psychopath -- just ask Danbo!) "Blood and souls for my Lord Arioch!" He he!

It's no secret I live in a rundown shack in the woods and sacrifice babies on nights of the new moon. The Old Ones will rise again, and I want the first thing they hear when they wake to be the soothing strains of King Diamond. Or maybe Bryan Adams. Whichever is the most vile and depraved.

Ia Shub-Niggurath! Cthulhu fhtagn!