The Future Of Prog.

I STRONGLY believe something has to be done to bring young peoples attention to progressive rock . An avenue has to be created so young people can access Prog rock. My friends who are into goth rock and mixtures of heavy rock are now getting into prog due to me slowly feeding them pieces of prog, now they are looking for more . But if there was a station which played the music they would be tuning in and im sure more and more young people would listen to it if they had the chance.

Any suggestions ?

Not everyone has pcs to access music.

It seems the only thing we can do is just what you are already doing... Spread the word, make compilation CD-R's and hope your friends "Get It."

I've got a couple of people listening and that's as much as I can hope for. 

karansaraf wrote: I think it's getting more exposure.  I know I've heard a LOOT of people over in America say that they've been into Best Buy and COSTCO (!!) and seen Dream Theater - Live at Budokan DVD all over the MASSIVE Plasma/Rear Projection/HDTV screens, over many locations across the US.  This lead other people in the store to ask them, "which band is that!? They're awesome!"  There have been instances of this with other bands too, but it's becoming better know I think.  Also, DT were no 2 in the album charts with train of thought in greece (Behind Britney Spears..:o), so it may spread...

Despite some progressive elements, I still say that DT are much more metal than prog, and metal sells, especially with younger listeners.

  Where is the same level of hype/promotion for a clearly progressive newer band like IQ? The 70s are gone -- you can't recreate an era or an overall sense of rock developing/expanding before your eyes. To a certain extent, it has all been done before, plus, I think that youth/rock culture was more unified and open to variety in prog's heyday. Now youth/rock culture seems much more factionalized.

The good ol' days are gone. There is still good new music being made, but audiences are (I think) different now. Attention spans are generally shorter, lyrics and music that require an effort and thought to get into are less likely to succeed, I think.

Classical and opera have similar problems, as their core audiences age, but are decreasingly replaced with new adherants.

Give most teens that I've taught some classic Genesis or Yes lyrics to read, and an overwhelming reaction will be "That's gay!"

Sad, but true, methinks....

I believe that real prog will remain on the fringe, and (as in the 80s) that prog bands that want to be economically viable will have to become more commercial to survive. DT do well because agressive high-speed metal does well. Did Marillion become more commercial-sounding by accident?

I have been doing Alien Rock radio on WRTC-FM Hartford, CT since 1974 - my show is probably the only one featuring this kind of music steadily still around here. 

The show is on every third Thursday evening from 7:30 to 9:00 pm ET in the US.

It will be on 10/28/04 - and then, the cycle continues from there

Actually, every night "alt" rock is on from 7:30 to 10:30 but my show spans the spectrum from 60s to present - check it out on WRTCFM.COM

I'm sure there are lots of other stations you can hear on the internet from around the world playing great prog music!

As far as kids listening to this stuff goes, when they hear it they like it!

one word: RADIOHEAD

the band is being played byeveryone i know, they are a smash hit, and a lot of their recognition is due to they progressive masterpiece OK Computer. They are they hold the keys to becoming mainstream. They just need to start touring more and bring good bands with them, the more exposure then the more fans, thus prog appreciation and acceptance globally

Radiohead doesn't even consider themselves to be prog....so how are they going to carry prog's future....  altho I think they are, more so than bands like Dream Theater or Spocks Beard. (both of which I don't like, but then I don't care for IQ either....) I have heard Jordan Rudess do some amazing things outside Dream Theater tho. So maybe there's something to look forward to...

I've only heard a little of the Muse.. and some of those other new bands who lean a bit to the left of prog... like Coheed & Cambria, but its not really prog, now is it. Marillion has a new album.. and its pretty good. Steve Hogarth has a few more years of prog left in him......There's Mostly Autumn (who think they're the next Pink Floyd) and Porcupine Tree.. who aren't really prog, but I actually like them...but

I guess I'll still just wait for ELP and Pink Floyd's comeback albums....

i guess, idk i consider Radiohead prog, what do they consider themselves? They initially were more indie but with OK computer i couldnt think of anything else but prog lol. I never thought coheed and cambria were prog, just punks, ill definatly check them out (not that i dislike punk). But i guess i dont have any other ideas on who can carry the weight and open it up.....RPWL's good but really unknown.

Psychwarlord wrote: I have been doing Alien Rock radio on WRTC-FM Hartford, CT since 1974 - my show is probably the only one featuring this kind of music steadily still around here.  The show is on every third Thursday evening from 7:30 to 9:00 pm ET in the US.   It will be on 10/28/04 - and then, the cycle continues from there   Actually, every night "alt" rock is on from 7:30 to 10:30 but my show spans the spectrum from 60s to present - check it out on WRTCFM.COM   I'm sure there are lots of other stations you can hear on the internet from around the world playing great prog music! As far as kids listening to this stuff goes, when they hear it they like it!

Hey, I'm from Old Lyme, you know where that is?  I like 104.7, its a good classic rock station.  Its on a lot where I work.

Peter Rideout wrote: {I'd just like to add some comments - by way of discussion, not derision } Despite some progressive elements, I still say that DT are much more metal than prog, and metal sells, especially with younger listeners. {Too true.}   Where is the same level of hype/promotion for a clearly progressive newer band like IQ? The 70s are gone -- you can't recreate an era or an overall sense of rock developing/expanding before your eyes. To a certain extent, it has all been done before, {Sorry, me old mucker, but I don't buy that - I could just as easily argue that Bach did everything first and everything else is just gravy... Back in the 1970s, Rock was still finding its feet, and categories were easier to tell apart, because there were fewer and more easily defined destinctions. Now many of the differences are more subtle - but this has happened for every successive generation of music - e.g. compare Vivaldi to his peers and play "spot the difference", ignoring the fact that Vivaldi was top of his game for his time. Now look at the time period over which Vivaldi's music developed - best part of half a century. It's less time than that since prog was born, so not surprising to me that much of what follows the "greats" sound similar. Music constantly develops - but what makes now so strikingly different from Vivaldi's time is that in those days there were fewer composers, who were far more highly skilled and formally trained. Nowadays it's all diluted - and becoming ever more so as "Young people" are encouraged to "express themselves" and eschew formal training to "do it naturally". The problem here is that like any skilled profession, unless you spend the time in the apprenticeship, the workmanship will become of a lower quality. It will take the skilled composers to make the music that lasts - but they are being "progressively" (sic) squeezed out of the system by "kids from the street making music for the kids of the street".  plus, I think that youth/rock culture was more unified and open to variety in prog's heyday. Now youth/rock culture seems much more factionalized. {I think things have come around full circle - many "younger" people I've spoken to have wide interests in music - what you are saying is very true of the devisive era of the mid 1970s - 1990s, but I think people are finally realising that there is good in most music.} The good ol' days are gone. {No!!! The good ol' days are right here, right now! } There is still good new music being made, but audiences are (I think) different now. Attention spans are generally shorter, lyrics and music that require an effort and thought to get into are less likely to succeed, I think. {That certainly seems to be a trend I have noticed. People now seem to like the "short, sharp shock", which is diametrically opposed to the days when prog was in its infancy, when such tactics were only reserved for shocking moments. I put this down to the same culture that goes for instant gratification and intense sports. The other thing that sells over and above everything else is the packaging - the presentation. Put a bunch of ugly guys on the TV who can play really well, and write great songs, and they will do less well than some pretty boys who have their stuff written and played for them by session musicians (the ugly guys...). Worse than that is that a lot of people can't seem to hear the music for the production - the old "magic dust". Producers now more than ever seem intent on disproving the old saying "You can't polish a turd". There is some great music out there with shockingly bad production on the recordings that gets overlooked because of the advances in production techniques that means that rubbish can be polished up until the average Joe (or Julie) can't tell the difference. Bah!!! } Classical and opera have similar problems, as their core audiences age, but are decreasingly replaced with new adherants. {Tricky one to argue against, but it's taken a very long time for interest in, say, Bach to start waning - could just be a "blip". I'd like to think so }. Give most teens that I've taught some classic Genesis or Yes lyrics to read, and an overwhelming reaction will be "That's gay!"  Sad, but true, methinks.... {I'm not exactly a teen anymore, but I find the lyrics of both bands a little problematic in places... (...stops before the air becomes too thick with flying missiles...)}. I believe that real prog will remain on the fringe, and (as in the 80s) that prog bands that want to be economically viable will have to become more commercial to survive. DT do well because agressive high-speed metal does well. Did Marillion become more commercial-sounding by accident? {No - but I believe that decision was probably management driven - hence Fish's decision to get out early. I'll bet everyone in the band was surprised when "He Knows You Know" and "Garden Party" were hit singles - I certainly was! The subject matter of the lyrics goes against all prevailing trends, and the song constructions are in different sporting arenas to, say, Duran Duran, Spandau Ballet or The Cure. If you are able to get hold of any of the Radio broadcasts of the concerts Marillion did before "Misplaced Childhood" was released, you will notice that "Kayleigh" is a much better fit in the overall concept - and much less striking as a stand-out track. That song had a lot of "tweaking" before its final release - which is a pity, as it is a good song in its own right, but was much better in its original form. I don't think Genesis became more commercial sounding by accident either }

{Hope you don't mind the modus operandi I've chosen to answer your posting - it seemed most appropriate, as I could get to each point as it arose rather than retrospectively!}

richardh wrote: Prog tends to be identified as being 'old peoples music'..

exactly, if im listening to my mp3 player, my friends will ask me what im listening to, i will usually say ELP before a response of something like what music do they play...progressive rock....problem is ....because this genre kinda took off in the 60's, 70's & 80's people dismiss it, and go back to listening to rap (with a silent c). I mean i could stand on stage for a few hours talking rubbish quickly to a boring beat.....what is the fascination???     oops getting off topic

I believe Prog will remain 'on the fringe' as people put it. This is not because young people would not take to it, but because big record companies are too frightened to take on bands that are good musicians, will want to stick around possibly for decades and wont be dictated to by the record company. The industry is geared towards acts that can be signed up tomorrow, then chewed up and spat out like bubble gum after just a few years, bands comprised of young boys and girls who just want to be famous and for whom the music is secondary in importance. There's a lot of milage in short terms bands..if you know what I mean. One when goes, four more pop up. Then there's all the TV possibilities that these cute looking acts can be part of. The Pop Idol type progams that make money spinning entertainment out of the selection processes.

Progressive rock was big. Very big!! People wanted to hear it, if they didn't they would not have brought ELP, Pink Floyd, Yes, Genesis and Jethro Tull albums by the millions!! But the trend has changed and the record companies want to be pulling the strings. Real musicians with integrity would not allow that to happen to them. Thats why prog will NEVER be big agaian, IMO. Damn shame.

Great one,Velvet.

But seriously,folks. Financial Times had an article about a year ago about the decline in interest in classical music. It's just not attracting younger people anymore,and some of the middle aged ones are beginning to slip away too. And FT blamed the junk culture of our age where everything has to be presented within three minutes or people lose interest. It's a kind of fast food for the mind. Anything that requires concentration and dedication is losing ground to the cultural junk food since that's what the new generation has grown up with,with a few notable exceptions,but I think they are few and far between,after all they were even when I was a teen in the late 70's and early 80's. And prog has a lot in common with classical in that it doesn't offer a "quick fix" or instant gratification,but requires concentration and,most of all,dedication. And I think that's what is lacking in most people: A dedication to music that goes beyond something to listen to on the car radio on their way to work or something nice and melodic going on in the background while they do something else. A passion and dedication to music that goes beyond that has always been a rarity,and will probably get even more rare in this century.

The gloomy forecast from FT was that by the end of the century even Mozart could be forgotten so what chance does prog have?

Pixel:

I agree. Although we see dumbing down in every area of culture, we should ask, is it culture that dictates the changes within the record companies, TV stations etc.., or is it changes within the media that precipitate the dumbing down in popular culture..?

In other words, WHO decided that prog had its day? Malcolm McLaren? EMI? Tabloid news papers? The bands were still selling records by the lorry load and filling up stadiums, than all of a sudden BANG! It was all but gone. Why and how? The record buying publics attention span would not have shrunk unles prompted to do so by media manipulation IMO, and it seems unlikely to me that prog fans in the 70's suddenly decided tat they no longer liked long songs, and wanted to hear three minute pop songs. They would have had to have undergone personality changes!!

I hope this waffle makes sense..

Not me  Might be my dyslexic cousin.

Elbow are a (nearly) new band and they have admitted (albeit begrudgingly) that they listen and indeed, play prog. They sound a little like Radiohead but there is more arrangement to the songs and the tracks tend to last a little longer (about seven mins). I'm not a huge fan but their albums 'Asleep In The Back' and 'Cast Of Thousands' are worth a listen.

Any prog played today would have to have contemporary influences and that might alienate a lot of 'old guard' prog heads. Nu-prog would end up sounding just that, new - not like the old prog. Most would deny it would be prog and hurry back to the tried and trusted 70's bands. 

If you want to know how you'd feel about  're-vamping' the genre. Take a look at old and new R&B and see what reaction that gives you.

There's a price to be paid by older fans and that is the ability to let the thing they love go in order for a younger generation to take hold. Most cannot do this and the thing that they want to thrive and expand, grows old and dies with them.

benny bouncer wrote: I mean i could stand on stage for a few hours talking rubbish quickly to a boring beat.....what is the fascination???

Equally, anybody could "write meaningless pretentious lyrics about elves and fairies that drivel on for half an hour".

Don't you see that by criticising another form of music (particularly by using clichés to explain something you presumably have little experience of) you're almost giving adherents of those styles permission to criticise your own without first listening to it thoroughly?

Commercialisation is the root of all that's evil.

Radiostations depend on advertising income, the advertisers want to reach the masses, so the commercial radiostations will play what's in demand of the biggest audience (there is no democracy in making money).

In reply of Blacksword:

It's the culture that makes the media act as it does, for the media are part of this culture. The media reflects what's happenning with the culture and extracts it's meaning of excistense from it. if the culture shifts the media will shift accordingly.

I too hope this waffle makes sense

Perfect sense, tuxon  Thanks for your reply.

If the music is good... someone will like it!

Today distribution no longer depends on record companies or radio stations.  Technology is making it easier to just buy the music you love directly from the artist.  So the ole.. will it play on the radio... is really becoming a thing of the past.  Cause who really listens to FM radio anymore anyway....

I listen to either digital from my cable station or on-line commercial free satellite radio, such as XM and SIRIUS, where I can chose the type music I prefer. When you have commercial free, progressive type radio stations, whats the point of listening to FM.  A friend recently told me I should check out some real radio shows on line, programmed by actual people, including some prog fans, such as Delicious Agony, Gagliarchives, Progressive Soundscapes, Live 365.

And these days... there's a few music venues around the States that are set up with exceptional recording technology.  You do a live gig, and they can have the live dvds ready to be purchased at the door less than a half hour after the end of your concert.... Now thats technology.

So these days, the priority of most artists should be getting your samples out on the internet.. or Itunes... much more productive.

Your right threefates,

But still there has to be a first encounter before new listeners will come to know and love prog music. and for that the regular channels (radio/television)would be the most adequate, random search will lead to a lot, but hardly ever what your really searching for. Only after my firts encounters through friends and some radio songs (semi-prog or more sophisticated pop) I got hooked on this prog thing, that made me look further and lead me to organised search on the internet for new bands to try.

buy the way: does anybody know a free (I don't pay for radio, not out of principle, Im just very poor) online radio show that plays neo-prog and symphonic prog, the ones I find always have to be paid for (axtualy I should first check out the ones suggested by Threefates)

Tastes a very cyclical. While "prog" as such may never reach its heady heights again, a similar type of music will become popular again, as people strive for something more "challenging".

We should remember that even in its heyday, prog didn't trouble the singles chart much, and the album charts had many other styles apart from prog.

Straight forward pop songs, ballads, dance tunes etc. will always be the biggest sellers, because for many people music isn't meant to be serious. It's something you have on while you're doing whatever else you're doing.

People like ourselves, and indeed those who like classical music, who like to listen to music at a deeper level will always be in the minority, there are simply too many other distractions for most people.

It's a bit like films. I watch a film once, and either enjoy it, or I don't. Either way, I don't watch the same film time and time again. A film buff will watch a classic many times, and get something new from it each time, I don't watch on that level.

I have no fear for the future of prog, (or classcial music), such genres will always be there for people who enjoy concentrating on the music, but I think we have to accept, it will never find great affection with the masses.

Pixel Pirate wrote: Blacksowrd,who's that?

backsoured? would be a good nickname at some adult forum, feel free to use it, I don't think I will  

  mailto:Radio@Netscape. - Radio@Netscape   is another source of free internet radio sources.  Their Psychadelic station tends to be really good.

http://radio.netscape.com/radio/radiosell2.html - http://radio.netscape.com/radio/radiosell2.html

Certif1ed:

I know Phill Collins considered himself above prog, and didn't regard Genesis as being in the same category as Yes & ELP. Of course, he was WRONG, they were! Better IMO, but most definately prog. I guess he just wanted to be a fake soul man.

Why does always Phill C. get the blame for Genesis's decline where Rutherford and Banks not as much part of the later genesis. 

thnx threefates, I managed to get some radio working

Progressive Rock, as I have found in many instances with its listeners, tends often to be exclusive to newcomers... prog rock "snobs," whether or not they intend to be this way or not, turn people off to the music. Not only this, but its important what prog rock a newcomer is introduced to. Introducing somebody to prog rock through a song like Roundabout or even something more mainstream like Tom Sawyer is a much better course of action than handing a good friend Topographic Oceans or Tarkus and setting him off on his way.

Prog Rock also seems to me like its becoming the new jazz, in the sense that its a musician's music. Sure, lots of people like jazz, but those who really follow it usually play some sort of instrument... and it seems more and more so that way with Prog Rock. How many people hear Abba and suddenly want to start playing a minimoog? You see my point.

With Radiohead, I think that whether or not they are considered to be playing prog, much of their music has progressive leanings, as seen in OK Computer and their newest Hail to the Theif. I recently read a Geddy Lee interview online in which he cited Radiohead (and Bjork) as his most recent influences, and his solo album My Favorite Headache has Radiohead written all over it, from start to finish. So call them what you will, they're making a mark in creative music, not just on the popular scene.

Finally, Phil Collins is, in my opinion, the cause of the fall of Genesis. Ask any high schooler: "Yeah, I know Phil Collins... wait, who's Genesis?" Really, he's all over the smooth jazz stations! He's not the only one to cop out, and most of the great prog rockers copped out at some point during the 80s... witness Asia... but he did make the jump from prog to pop.

I understand Violets frustration at the total lack of anything remotely different for the youth of today to access and listen to.Prog almost dominated the rock world for a short period but the arrival of the abhorrent Punk era suddenly swept aside musicians who were masters at what they did here in the UK.The journalists who were raving about Prog and all it entailed suddenly jumped ship and decided that prog was the bubonic plague.The NME were at the helm and that despicable Liverpudlian John Peel.In the 70's there was the Alan Freeman rock show he later ressurected this on Virgin in the 90's but the station whose owner was made by the then unkown Mike Oldfield decided that it didn't have a big enough audience.They couldn't even devote 2 hours a week to the music we love.Someone mentioned trends it would only take someone with a bit of leverage to change things.The media are to blame for the garbage currently on offer.SV keep at your friends. With young prog people like you there might just be a slight hope.Write letters assail your local radio stations.Here in the west of Scotland there used to be the 'Tom Russell rock show for years but they took that off as well.Having it on between 12 midnight and 2 A.M didn't help.For me punk and all it's in your face mostly talentless crass rubbish is to blame.Why this country so blessed with great musicians and songwriters embraced it is a mystery.Chart music at the time was still strong what brought the wind of change in the way it did will be forever disturbing.I suspect the media again in the way they embraced punk and jettisoned prog and Yes and ELP were their main targets.But great joy Yes still play the best live gigs on the planet and with young people like Violet and the 16 year old who posted there is always hope.Perhaps there will be a new prog boom if somebody decides to push it.Perhaps we older proggers are as guilty in accepting our lot.

..

sigod wrote: Elbow are a (nearly) new band and they have admitted (albeit begrudgingly) that they listen and indeed, play prog. They sound a little like Radiohead but there is more arrangement to the songs and the tracks tend to last a little longer (about seven mins). I'm not a huge fan but their albums 'Asleep In The Back' and 'Cast Of Thousands' are worth a listen.

I have "Asleep in the Back." I like it and I can hear the progginess in their stuff. Originally they were supposed to be on Peter Gabriel's label, but it fell through. I heard PG was supposed to produce it, but..... Anyway, the singer does have some PG timbre to his vocals.

hey now punk aint that bad,  give ska a try!

now i know that the prog movement will come back when hippies rise again and become acceptle again, and that will happen only soon if the draft comes back! Guess what! if bush is elected again HE" might bring the draft back ( when i say might i mean will) the hippeies will strike out, and it will be the 70's movement all over again. hippe music will of course come back. im not saying all you guys are hippies....not all...

Vote GOARGE BUSH, HE'lL BRING THE HIPPIES BACK!

...only this time, "Hippies" will be rebranded "Terrorists" or "Subversive Communists" - or maybe even "Enemies of the State"...

Just a thought

Blacksword wrote: Certif1ed: I know Phill Collins considered himself above prog, and didn't regard Genesis as being in the same category as Yes & ELP. Of course, he was WRONG, they were! Better IMO, but most definately prog. I guess he just wanted to be a fake soul man.

When Genesis released the "From Genesis to Revelation" album, it was with the intention of creating music that's "Nice to listen to". FGTR is exactly that - you might not realise the album was by Genesis, if you weren't familiar with Gabriel's softer tones. I'm not even sure that "Trespass" was created with the intention of being "prog", just more of the "nice music" but a bit rockier. Both great albums - but I'm wondering at what point Genesis themselves considered themselves to be a prog band - if ever. I'm not blaming Mr Collins - he was just doing what he did, and what he wanted to do, and made a truckload or two of cash out of it.

It kinda goes with what I think about Radiohead - they might be appalled to be labelled prog, but to me, they are one of the most progressive bands of the past decade - certainly one of the most influential on other bands. Porcupine Tree, Marillion, Muse, Travis, Coldplay, Keane - just a few bands who wear the Radiohead influence like dayglow ponchos.

At least, unlike Genesis and some prog bands I could mention, Radiohead stick true to the higher ideals and re-invent their music with the "pure" intention of creating new music - not simply to earn even more shedloads of moolah.

Certif1ed wrote: [QUOTE=Blacksword] When Genesis released the "From Genesis to Revelation" album, it was with the intention of creating music that's "Nice to listen to".

That is very true but it must be said that at the time Genesis were being managed by pop supremo (and now jailed pedophile) Jonathan King who was in his own way, trying to turn out a manufactured pop band. It was his idea to name them Genesis and his suggestion that they write a pop album. After the commercial faliure of FGTR, King dropped them, thank god. Had the album been a success, we might have never seen the catalogue that we know and love today.

So if Genesis were a 60's boy band that went wrong, there's hope for Westlife yet!

If Radiohead is the hope for a brighter future of Prog Rock then Prog Rock will die ! Music will be around and some folks will listen to "art-rock" in whatever form it comes. As for us Die-Hard Prog fans.....we are doomed to listen to Eminem, Mariah Carey and Mrs Spears in our white padded rooms, wearing straight-jackets so we cant change the stations on the dial. But dont worry; we'll have 3 doses of heavy sedations a day ! And please mamma take these white coated men away and leave me alone ! ! !

________

Lunar  

^ Ha! Good one, Lunar! A fate worse than death, indeed!

Makes my "death by tiger shark or tiger" question pale in comparison....

Prog will never have a future. Prog is dead. Prog never even had a past other than a few weirdos such as yourselves who would give them a chance.....you lunatics you!!!

MUH,HA,HA,HA!

just kidding

Steps to bring prog back:

1. People become more "progressive". Eg, less conservative (as it is now).

2. New band appears...not heralded as "prog", but as "rock".

3. New band gains popularity with its semi-commercial rock.

4. Band moves away from commercial rock, fans follow.

5. Band openly declares "we are prog!" by adding a 20+ minute song on their newest album. Reactions are mixed.

6. People go with it, other bands join, prog euphoria.

7. INEVITABLE STEP: people slack and the pendulum swings. Prog is again unpopular.

8. 30 to 40 years later, PROG REVOLUTION #3!!!!!

Feel free to point out the many faults in this optimistic step-by-step thingy.

Certif1ed wrote:

I'm not even sure that "Trespass" was created with the intention of being "prog", just more of the "nice music" but a bit rockier.

Oh come on!!!!!, Trespass just one more of the nice music?

I don't know what album you are describing because Trespass is one of the most dark, obscure and mysterious albums Genesis even released, White Mountain is a masterpiece, The Knife, well, what can I say it's the limit between Prog' and hard rock with absolutely inteligent lyrics, Looking for Someone and Dusk are great tracks, Stagnation is inspiring, I don't find a single nice song.

Trespass is the most drastic change a band ever had, from a bunch of kids searching a hit single (misguided by Jonathan King) to a bunch of kids doing great and serious music.

Radiohead can only dream with doing an album 50% as inventive and good as Trespass.

I'm wondering at what point Genesis themselves considered themselves to be a prog band

I don't know either, but they were progressive since Trespass until W&W and that's evident, people and bands are what they are not what they consider they are.

Ian Anderson still says Jethro Tull was never progressive and everybody else in the world considers them prog'. And please let's not believe what Mr. Collins says, he is the same guy that recorded soundtracks for Disney and recorded a track with N'Sync.

At least, unlike Genesis and some prog bands I could mention, Radiohead stick true to the higher ideals and re-invent their music with the "pure" intention of creating new music - not simply to earn even more shedloads of moolah.

Please, what are you talking about? Do you read musical history?

Genesis members during the Gabriel years were almost starving, they had to give as most concerts as posible in Italy just to barely survive because theycouldn't sell 200 tickets in London, and they didn't cared, they kept reinventing their music from album to album, they even released the ultra complex The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway despite the fact that it was too complex to be understood by 99% of the people.

The last concert with Peter Gabriel had to be cancelled (Not sure if it was in Toullouse) because of lack of interest, Mr. Peter Gabriel after he left Genesis broke in his effort with the WOMAD, a musical success but an economic disaster.

So if you don't think this is re-inventing their music with the "pure" intention of creating new music, I don't understand you.

What Mr Collins and this two session musicians (Banks and Rutherford) did after W&W is another thing, that is not Genesis, they should have changed the name of the band, but I assume when we talk in this forum about Genesis we talk about the lapse between Trespass and W&W.

Iván

i guess it depends on if you think of prog as a genre more like jazz or more like psychedelia. If it's more like jazz, it will stick around and continue to develop- mostly behind the scenes, with an established dedicated fanbase but very little mainstream awareness...pretty much like it is now. If it's more like psychedelia, it will only reappear as a retro parody (groovy, baby) and have very little in common with the spirit of the original...er, kinda like Archive...

And let's not forget the drugs! I know, not everyone who likes prog (or even most of them) is a druggie, but I'm sure the experimental mind-expanding of the 65-75 decade had plenty to do with prog's mainstream sales. The last drug-fueled musical boom was acid house...and a lot of the rave kids have gone on to appreciate prog. They both use outdated synth sounds, for one thing

I can't really see prog making a significant comeback, except in an almost unrecognizable form (much more different than neo-prog and classic prog). Radiohead is a good example, and GYBE, but also the more experimental electronic artists...and until things change dramatically, nobody wants to risk actually calling themselves "prog" until its weird stigma is gone.

But I stand by my perverse hope that prog never gets more popular than it is now. I enjoy every negative thing that's said about it- it keeps the real fans honest and motivated

ivan_2068 wrote: Certif1ed wrote: I'm not even sure that "Trespass" was created with the intention of being "prog", just more of the "nice music" but a bit rockier. Oh come on!!!!!, Trespass just one more of the nice music? It follows on very well - yes, it's darker, but there was darker to come... I don't know what album you are describing because Trespass is one of the most dark, obscure and mysterious albums Genesis even released, White Mountain is a masterpiece, The Knife, well, what can I say it's the limit between Prog' and hard rock with absolutely inteligent lyrics, Looking for Someone and Dusk are great tracks, Stagnation is inspiring, I don't find a single nice song. I like it all - I think it's nice... Trespass is the most drastic change a band ever had, from a bunch of kids searching a hit single (misguided by Jonathan King) to a bunch of kids doing great and serious music. Radiohead can only dream with doing an album 50% as inventive and good as Trespass. In your opinion... I'm wondering at what point Genesis themselves considered themselves to be a prog band I don't know either, but they were progressive since Trespass until W&W and that's evident, people and bands are what they are not what they consider they are. You miss my point entirely by re-asserting it!!!  Ian Anderson still says Jethro Tull was never progressive and everybody else in the world considers them prog'. And please let's not believe what Mr. Collins says, he is the same guy that recorded soundtracks for Disney and recorded a track with N'Sync. At least, unlike Genesis and some prog bands I could mention, Radiohead stick true to the higher ideals and re-invent their music with the "pure" intention of creating new music - not simply to earn even more shedloads of moolah. Please, what are you talking about? Do you read musical history? Of course!!! That is part of what I hold "Certif1cations" in!!! Does this really need explaining? Genesis members during the Gabriel years were almost starving, they had to give as most concerts as posible in Italy just to barely survive because theycouldn't sell 200 tickets in London, and they didn't cared, they kept reinventing their music from album to album, they even released the ultra complex The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway despite the fact that it was too complex to be understood by 99% of the people. Point missed again... The last concert with Peter Gabriel had to be cancelled (Not sure if it was in Toullouse) because of lack of interest, Mr. Peter Gabriel after he left Genesis broke in his effort with the WOMAD, a musical success but an economic disaster. So if you don't think this is re-inventing their music with the "pure" intention of creating new music, I don't understand you. What Mr Collins and this two session musicians (Banks and Rutherford) did after W&W is another thing, that is not Genesis, they should have changed the name of the band, but I assume when we talk in this forum about Genesis we talk about the lapse between Trespass and W&W. "Assume" made an "Ass" out of "U" and "Me". Iván

You appear to have missed most of my points, Ivan - which is rare for you, as you are normally totally on the ball.

Certif1ed wrote:

You appear to have missed most of my points, Ivan - which is rare for you, as you are normally totally on the ball.

Well Certif1ed, thank you for your comments about that I'm normally totally on the ball, what is not always true because as everyone I make mistakes, in this case I only answered specific phrases you mentioned:

1.- You did compared Genesis with Radiohead and even implied Genesis didn't stick true to the higher ideals and re-invent their music with the "pure" intention of creating new music.

I only answered what I think about Genesis, at least during the progressive era of Genesis, because as everyone knows I can't care less about the 3 - men era..

2.- You also said Trespass is only more of the nice music,

Again I told you my perspective about this point.

3.- Also you said you didn’t knew when Genesis started to considered themselves progressive:

I'm wondering at what point Genesis themselves considered themselves to be a prog band.

Again I answered that I don’t believe it matters at all, because they were progressive since Trespass despite what they believed.

Maybe I missed your global intention and point, but I only replied specific phrases and comparisons  with specific answers. 

Hope I didn't miss the point again.

Iván

Certif1ed wrote: ivan_2068 wrote: Certif1ed wrote: You appear to have missed most of my points, Ivan - which is rare for you, as you are normally totally on the ball.   Well Certif1ed, thank you for your comments about that I'm normally totally on the ball, what is not always true because as everyone I make mistakes, in this case I only answered specific phrases you mentioned:   1.- You did compared Genesis with Radiohead and even implied Genesis didn't stick true to the higher ideals and re-invent their music with the "pure" intention of creating new music.   Quote: At least, unlike Genesis and some prog bands I could mention, Radiohead stick true to the higher ideals and re-invent their music with the "pure" intention of creating new music - not simply to earn even more shedloads of moolah.     I only answered what I think about Genesis, at least during the progressive era of Genesis, because as everyone knows I can't care less about the 3 - men era.. I thought it was fairly clear that I was referring to the 3 man era itself...   2.- You also said Trespass is only more of the nice music,   Quote: I'm not even sure that "Trespass" was created with the intention of being "prog", just more of the "nice music" but a bit rockier.   Again I told you my perspective about this point.   Yes, and when I compare Trespass to FGTR, I hear the FGTR style as strongly as the later style. Listen to "The Beginning" on FGTR  -  isn't that as dark sounding as much of Trespass? "The Knife", as you rightly point out, goes much, much further - I am referring to the continuity of sound, and, because it's more or less the same lineup (no Hackett or Collins), the sound of "Trespass" is, to me at least, transitional between FGTR and "Nursery Cryme".   Gabriel's voice, Phillips' guitar and Banks' piano sound provide the intrumental continuity (the 'nice' sound) and the lyrical content, while darker, is in the same 'natural' setting (mountains, forests, streams) with many of the same characters - especially the conquering 'hero' - and plainly the same voice.   I'm interested in your perspective, BTW - this isn't supposed to be some high and mighty technical kick-down, just amicable and hopefully intelligent discussion from a different point of view.   3.- Also you said you didn’t knew when Genesis started to considered themselves progressive: I'm wondering at what point Genesis themselves considered themselves to be a prog band. Again I answered that I don’t believe it matters at all, because they were progressive since Trespass despite what they believed. OK, you had stated that Radiohead don't consider themselves prog - and my point was in agreement - but also by way of nullifying that as an argument as to why we may not consider them to be prog - is that clearer? To sum up, it doesn't matter what Radiohead think they are - it is not they who do the labelling Maybe I missed your global intention and point, but I only replied specific phrases and comparisons  with specific answers.  Hope I didn't miss the point again. I guess I laboured that a bit - but by picking on specific phrases it seems to me that you lost the 'rhythm' of my counter-argument/discussion points, and I was just trying to clear things up - the trouble with text is that you can't see my expression, hear the inflections in my voice, yadda, yadda... Iván

Have you been at the Gin again?

I like the colourfull way he expresses himselve,

 all blue

Ok Cert, when somebody talks about Genesis in a Prog' forum I assume (don't do the same game of words again ) we'retalking aboutthe 5 or at least 4 men era, because the 3 men era is anything except progressive or Genesis.

But still I don't see Trespass as continuity of sound of FGTTR, the first Genesis album is piano based, full of simple and shorter tunes, catchy lyrics, it has Konathan King's signature, Trespass is absolutely different.

Yes Collins and Hackett are not in the band yet, but Phillips has a very similar atmospheric sound to Hackett's and Mayhew wasn't a bad drummer, not good as Collins but there are few in the level of Collins.

The lyrics are much deep than in FGTTR, and to be honest I don't see any darnes in the debut Genesis album, sounds more like the early Bee Gees than to a prog' band.

But there's no problem, maybe I was on another thing at the moment I answered your first post.

Iván

Okay, I suppose that begs the question.

How many members did it take to make a quality Genesis album?

No penis jokes allowed, Garten!

4 Many of the Collins haters here seem to "retroactively" hate him -- they don't like what the band later became with him as the frontman, and they don't like Collins' solo work (fair enough -- I don't like that stuff much either) therefore everything he ever sang/wrote with Genesis automatically becomes garbage. (See the treatment accorded the average Phil-sung song in reviews of classic Genesis here.)

 Admit it or not, the man can sing rather well. He was an integral part of the old Genesis, and the band released at least two more excellent discs with him on the vocals.

"A Trick of the Tail" and "Wind and Wuthering" were and still are, for most Genesis fans, fine albums!

Believe it or not, Phil Collins is not the antichrist. 

I would pick some of the purveyors of gansta rap (gag) or  death metal (retch) as candidates for that title!

I've never had a problem with Phil Collins. As a matter of fact, I enjoyed his first solo album and even a few tunes from later Genesis albums. Before my re-discovery of prog, I always considered him one of the better POP singers out there. Prince or Phil Collins? I never had to think about it.

The debate is interesting, though.

Peter Rideout wrote: 4 Many of the Collins haters here seem to "retroactively" hate him -- they don't like what the band later became with him as the frontman, and they don't like Collins' solo work (fair enough -- I don't like that stuff much either) therefore everything he ever sang/wrote with Genesis automatically becomes garbage. (See the treatment accorded the average Phil-sung song in reviews of classic Genesis here.)  Admit it or not, the man can sing rather well. He was an integral part of the old Genesis, and the band released at least two more excellent discs with him on the vocals. "A Trick of the Tail" and "Wind and Wuthering" were and still are, for most Genesis fans, fine albums! Believe it or not, Phil Collins is not the antichrist.  I would pick some of the purveyors of gansta rap (gag) or  death metal (retch) as candidates for that title!

Actually I have only recently got into Genesis a couple years ago. Heck..for the longest time I just thought they sucked but I was basing that on what I heard on the radio in the 80's. I bought Lamb and loved it. Afterward I picked up the rest of the Peter Gabriel stuff and fell in love with them too.Later I read the 2 following album after Gabriels's departure were still prog so I purchased them and wasn't very impressed. I for one find his voice a tad annoying so I'll stick to my original answer since I do not fall into the catagory you listed above Mr. Ridout

5!!!

As far as I'm concerned, to say Trespass is better than anything Radiohead has done is a major insult to Radiohead.  Trespass is a decent album, but it's the sound of a band still trying to find it's feet and define it's sound, much like Radiohead's debut Pablo Honey (the only RH album I'd put in the same league as Trespass).  The Bends is arguably the best straight forward rock album ever, and every single song (well besides maybe Sulk) is amazing.  I guarentee you all that there's not a person on this forum who could see them play Street Spirit live (as I did) and not be totally blown away.  Ok Computer is an incredible art-rock album, featuring Paranoid Android (arguably the best 90s prog track).  Airbag is a perfect album opener, The Tourist is a perfect closer, Karma Police is a definitive single, Exit Music, No Surprises and Let Down are hearbreakingly beautiful, Electioneering and Lucky are great rockers, and Climbing Up the Walls and Fitter Happier are haunting.  I personally prefer The Bends, but this is one of the definitive 90s rock albums.  And how did they follow up two of the best albums ever released?  With a third.  Kid A is one of the most engaging, haunting, gorgeous albums ever, with a dense, electronic feel that you won't find anywhere else.  It was so good that they were albe to release an album of stuff that they recorded for Kid A but didn't put on it, and pass it off as another solid full length release.  That release (Amnesiac) contains some stunning tracks like Pyramid Song and Dollars and Cents, and while it's not up to par with the previous 3, it's still better than Trespass.  Hail to the Thief is another classic, and while slightly more conventional, is still a brilliant experimental rock album, with one of the best songs ever recorded (2+2=5) opening it.  The only Genesis release I'd put on par with Radiohead is Foxtrot, although to compare them is somewhat ridiculous.

Sorry about that rant, I just care very passionately about this subject.

^ Fair enough, Panoramic (Useful too) -- taste is individual.

I squirm when people write things here like "This album is definitely better than that one!" What they mean, or should say, of course, is "I like this album much more than that one." Beware of absolute statements (they often employ words like "best, only, every, all, none, never, always, worst," etc.) They are very hard to defend, and they seek to divide a multi-coloured world into strictly black and white, "my way, or no way" terms. This is unrealistic, intolerant, and, in politics, religion, etc., often downright dangerous. It's a big world out there!

Lecture over -- school's out (completely)!

Peter Rideout wrote:

4 Many of the Collins haters here seem to "retroactively" hate him -- they don't like what the band later became with him as the frontman, and they don't like Collins' solo work (fair enough -- I don't like that stuff much either) therefore everything he ever sang/wrote with Genesis automatically becomes garbage. (See the treatment accorded the average Phil-sung song in reviews of classic Genesis here.)

Agree with you, I don't like Collins voice, it sounds flat to me, I believe he never could sing Battle for the Epping Forest doing more than ten different voices like Peter did, but I believe he's a decent vocalist and a hell of a drummer.

His voice is perfect for transitional stuff like ATOTT (except Dance on a Volcano, the only song from that album I would love to listen with Gabriel´s voice. He was part of my favorite band and did an excellent job behind the drum kit and a backing vocalist.

I even like one of his albums (W&W) much more than Selling England, SEBTP has More Fool Me and W&W has Your own Special way, so both are even in bad tracks, but 11Th Earl and One for the Vine are masterpieces.

squirm when people write things here like "This album is definitely better than that one!" What they mean, or should say, of course, is "I like this album much more than that one." Beware of absolute statements (they often employ words like "best, only, every, all, none, never, always, worst," etc.)

I did this when answering the Radiohead comparison, so I'm sorry about that, I'll re-phrase, IMHO there's no Radiohead album that comes near to any Gabriel era Genesis albums and W&W.

My opinion about Radiohead is that's a good band, not Prog' but very good even when it's a bit overrated, but again this is my personal opinion.

Iván

Nope Peter this is not a problem with English, this was a keyboard problem , I tried to write darkness.

I don't see any darkness in From Genesis to the Revelation.

Iván

Ivan - I assume you know that Collins didn't play on Trespass either (your posts imply otherwise...) 

All the seeds are there on FGTR, to my ears - I'm not familiar with early Bee Gees, but, string arrangements aside, I hear much the same band on the two albums but with a rockier feel and a darker edge overall on Trespass. "In The Beginning" is the ideal comparison track, as it has a dark keyboard opening, and is darker as a song (IMO) than "Looking for Someone".

There are other dark moments on FGTR that stop it being a flower-power hippy album - edges to the overall "happy" feel that I think King over-emphasised with those horrible string sections, and probably studio direction.

The lyrics are deeper on Trespass, but thematically, they are very similar - the same words and imagery keep cropping up - and they are obviously written by the same person (I don't mean obviously as in reading the credits on the album, I mean a simple scan of the lyrics makes certain points jump out at me).

This looks like an interesting side discussion, on the similarities and differences between the two albums - King's influence is thankfully gone on Trespass, but John Mayhew's drumming isn't an awful lot better than his predecessor, Jon Silver.

The piano-driven sound is still there, Banks being the central pillar of Genesis that he always has been, but on Trespass, it's simply lower in the mix. The piano features strongly on all the early Genesis albums... why am I telling this to an afficiando...?

Peter Rideout again makes an excellent point that I have been struggling to find 'good' words for for ages; "Beware of absolute statements". I'm as guilty as anyone - but I hope you never see me post anything like "Band X is better than band Y", as such statements only lead to confrontation, cannot easily be defended and generally p155 people off.

Useful_Idiot - (Back on topic at last!!!) your passion for Radiohead's music seems even greater than mine!

Personally I think their music goes the next step beyond "neo-prog", in that it is more "reductionalist". Radiohead start with fairly conventional song structures and instrumentation on "Pablo Honey", strip it down on "The Bends" - but at the same time experiment with new sounds and styles. "Iron Lung" is so stylistically different to "Street Spirit" and "Just" that you might think you were listening to different bands if it wasn't for Yorke's unmistakable voice. Also, there are tracks on the "Iron Lung" EP which, for me, are so evocative of dream sequences, places and atmospheres that I hear it very much as the new prog. "Lozenge of Love" particularly stands out for me.

Kid A illustrates some of my previous points perfectly - I won't cover any of it, as you've done a great job, but this is what I was getting at when I said that they were "purely" making music - they threw away all of the "OK Computer" styles and anything before it to deliberately create new music in new and interesting ways. They even gave the album away via internet download before it was released - to me this is a very progressive approach, while entirely in keeping with the old ideals. The fact that people subsequently went and bought enough copies to propel it up the album charts speaks volumes, as there is no "pop" music on that album.

Whether it's better or worse than anything Genesis wrote is a moot point, as it is subjective. Whether it's prog or not is up to people who like prog - we have the power to decide what prog is, as there is no concrete definition anywhere!!

Peter Rideout wrote: I would pick some of the purveyors of gansta rap (gag) or  death metal (retch) as candidates for that title!

Death Metal is definitely the best!

ivan_2068 wrote: Nope Peter this is not a problem with English, this was a keyboard problem , I tried to write darkness. I don't see any darkness in From Genesis to the Revelation. Iván

Thanks Ivan!

I'm inclined to agree with you on FGTR.

philippe wrote: Prog has no future. It belongs to the past. There are bands who are influenced by this genre but does it mean that they are prog ?...I'm very doubtful about that.

So are you saying that prog as a genre only applies to bands of a certain time period, rather than a style of music?

I don't see how that can be, as there were many bands in that time period that were not prog.

...or am I missing something?

James Lee wrote: Peter Rideout wrote: I would pick some of the purveyors of gansta rap (gag) or  death metal (retch) as candidates for that title! Death Metal is definitely the best!

 Tsk tsk! Deaf Mental, eh James? That explains your recent anger and vitriol....

You'll be bedwetting, lighting fires, and torturing small animals next (all psychological indicators of the budding murderous psychopath -- just ask Danbo!)

"Blood and souls for my Lord Arioch!"

He he!

Peter Rideout wrote: James Lee wrote: Peter Rideout wrote: I would pick some of the purveyors of gansta rap (gag) or  death metal (retch) as candidates for that title! Death Metal is definitely the best!  Tsk tsk! Deaf Mental, eh James? That explains your recent anger and vitriol.... You'll be bedwetting, lighting fires, and torturing small animals next (all psychological indicators of the budding murderous psychopath -- just ask Danbo!) "Blood and souls for my Lord Arioch!" He he!

It's no secret I live in a rundown shack in the woods and sacrifice babies on nights of the new moon. The Old Ones will rise again, and I want the first thing they hear when they wake to be the soothing strains of King Diamond. Or maybe Bryan Adams. Whichever is the most vile and depraved.

Ia Shub-Niggurath! Cthulhu fhtagn!

Certif1ed wrote:

Ivan - I assume you know that Collins didn't play on Trespass either (your posts imply otherwise...)

Now you're having problems with your reading?

I quote myself on October 27:

But still I don't see Trespass as continuity of sound of FGTTR, the first Genesis album is piano based, full of simple and shorter tunes, catchy lyrics, it has Konathan King's signature, Trespass is absolutely different. Yes Collins and Hackett are not in the band yet, but Phillips has a very similar atmospheric sound to Hackett's and Mayhew wasn't a bad drummer, not good as Collins but there are few in the level of Collins.

No comments, I was clear in that point.

Certif1ed wrote:

The lyrics are deeper on Trespass, but thematically, they are very similar - the same words and imagery keep cropping up - and they are obviously written by the same person

Obviously, the Genesis lyrics are mainly written by Peter Gabriel up to The Lamb, but the theme is completely different:

Looking for Someone is about the search of life meaning (somehow in the vein of ).

White Mountain is based in a novel by Jack London (White Fang)

Visions of Angels is  a complex lyric about life meaning and the pass of time.

Stagnation is a track about Thomas S. Eiselberg, a very rich man, who was wise enough to spend all his fortunes in burying himself many miles beneath the ground. As the only surviving member of the human race, he inherited the whole world.

Dusk is pure poetry again a bit in the style of Jon Anderson's lyrics.

The Knife is an ultra violent song about a messianic leader and very complex also.

This are not the lyrics from cute songs, is something deeper.

Certif1ed wrote:

The piano-driven sound is still there, Banks being the central pillar of Genesis that he always has been, but on Trespass, it's simply lower in the mix.

Now you're the one who didn't got the point (as I did before) FGTTR is mainly a piano based album, very melodic. In Trespass they add massive organ  and, mellotron, also with some piano.

Iván

^

Just a few observations here:

Because persons with paranoid personality disorder are hyperalert, they notice any slight and may take offense where none is intended. As a result, they tend to be defensive and antagonistic. When they are at fault, they cannot accept blame, not even mild criticism. Yet they are highly critical of others. Other people may say that these individuals make "mountains out of molehills

In addition to being argumentative and uncompromising, the people with paranoid personality disorder are often emotionally cut off from other people. They appear cold and, in fact, often avoid becoming intimate with others. They pride themselves on their rationality and objectivity. People with a paranoid outlook on life rarely come to the attention of clinicians--it is not in their nature to seek help. Many presumably function competently in society. They may seek out social niches in which a moralistic and punitive style is acceptable, or at least tolerated to a certain degree.

^ whereas mentally healthy people avoid online forums like the plague

...still chuckling about "massive organ".

Velvetclown wrote: mentally healthy ????????????  Never been that

You big,slavering maniac you!

This forum has turned very silly lately hasn't it? Oh,well,when in Rome. How do goldfish go into business? They start on a small scale.

Certif1ed wrote: Reed Lover wrote:  But then there's that guy I met in the service station on the M25 last summer....

I knew it- you're Alan Partridge aren't you?

Back of the net!!!!

My hero!

Personally I want to say the following :

                     PROG AINT DEAD

                     PROG SHALL NOT CEASE TO EXIST

 Prog will only come to an end when we give in and stop listening to it. I do not want it to be all mainstream like, I just want the young adolecents of today to be able to see what it is like as you all did or some of you anyway. They are missing out on something great , if they don't like it ..fine, but at least they ought to have a decent chance to decide if the like it or not. Provide an alternative choice.

To those pestimistic followers..get a grip..i read someone say on this thread that prog was dead and it belonged to the 70's or whatever  now that,,joke or not made me upset.what the hell was that attitude all about,its a stupid idiotic comment i think. **girlie wrath**

I am not prepared to let the music I love die at some point in the future...something has to be done to get it out to the next generation.

Oh and 'bout the Collins Pop boy, he's prob an okish drummer but thats it...he ruined Genesis!! once Gabriel left and Hackett that was it...

Love n Peace.

Shrinking Violet...Oi ! and also to throw it in, If you haven't tried MOSTLY AUTUMN  i suggest you go and get some of their stuff, this is one band i'd like to see survive in the near future.

~Jen~

First to Reed: There's no antagonism between Certif1ed and me, we are only a couple of stubborn old farts that love to discuss.

Massive Organ : I accept this one James, my English command is not perfect.

And again to Reed Lover, I'm not paranoid!!!!!!!!!!, but I have to leave because the CIA, Interpol and Mossad want to read my brain waves, everybody is following me

Iván

 Ivan and Cert (Reed too):

Ha! FUNNY guys! Way to go!

Cert, your responses to Reed's "paranoia post" were particularly funny.

Hello, is this the right room for an argument?

I told you once.

No you didn't.

Yes I did, just then. 

(etc., etc!)

You are all mad.

But I like it

Reed Lover wrote: Certif1ed wrote: Reed Lover wrote:  But then there's that guy I met in the service station on the M25 last summer.... I knew it- you're Alan Partridge aren't you?

I don't know what you mean by that - although, funnily enough, it reminds me of when I met Sir Cliff Richard - or Cliff, as I normally call him. Actually, in private, I call him Cliffy Bunny Wunny Snuggleskin, but I think I'd better not tell him that to his face... look, forget I just said that, will you? I'll pay you...

Anyway, I met Sir Cliff in Woolworths just the other day... well, when I say 'met', he was already in there signing his latest book, and when I got to the front of the queue 6 hours later, I said "Sir Cliff, your royal highness, this is such an honour - I've got all your records and been to all your concerts, oh, this is fantastic..." I don't remember him actually saying anything back to me, but he did smile very nicely at me just before I passed out...

Er... did I ever tell you I once met Burt Bacharach?

No-thank God!

Are you actually telling me you dont know who Alan Partridge is?