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Something incredible happened in my life |
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moshkito 
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Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18078 |
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 Posted: November 28 2020 at 09:34 |
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Hi, As if a message, or email, or these posts, were any kind of indication as to what is the way that things are. There is no confusion in my lines, in that I see something that I went through some 30 or 40 years ago, but in my case my English was bad and I could not communicate a lot, so I kept it quiet and wrote instead. Later, I resolved a lot of it in theater and some film ... I sill did not say a whole lot about it. But I know, that the road is not about one vision, or one feeling ... and you continually supporting that stand, TO ME, shows that you are not ready for the next step, and will have a harder time getting there that you (or I) would like. I'm not a "new age" floozy ... and if you don't see the clarity in the lines, look in the mirror. You might find something, then!
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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oliverstoned
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
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Posted: November 28 2020 at 10:05 |
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I don't want to loose my energy to get into an argument with you.
However i think i'm already into the next step, as i enter more & more into inner silence and it's new to me. Something i've tried before without success and seems much easier now. Eventually maybe i have it all wrong on all the line. All i can say for sure is that a tremendous change happened in my life and for the best. Otherwise, i would not have wrote this text. |
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oliverstoned
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Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 26 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 6308 |
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Posted: February 25 2021 at 13:08 |
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SolNiger
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Joined: February 23 2021 Location: Portugal Status: Offline Points: 91 |
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Posted: February 26 2021 at 04:05 |
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Since the age of 18 I have been experiencing mystical states recurringly, mostly when in contact with nature, but also through particular forms of art, poetry, and music, as well as in temples such as Gothic churches. Their essence doesn't fall into the sphere of worldly exerience and is altogether indescribable by human language. I have nonetheless attempted such a description before, which I have published on another website, and which I reproduce here:
...it felt like stepping out of this world and into another,
more real, more beautiful world; or rather, like lifting an opaque veil that
would cover all things, and revealing their divine light in all its splendour,
unveiling the endless, numinous beauty which lay within them and suffusing the
heart with a childlike joy. In this place, which felt infinitely more real than
anything that exists in what we regrettably call the "real world,"
the sensation of time would vanish, and matter would be transfigured into Spirit; and
each tree, each leaf, each flower, each stream, each moss-covered stone would
glow with a pearly light, and become alive, and every thing - my own Self
included - would reveal itself as being but a reflection, an emanation, of
that which even at that time I could only describe as "God." All was a theophany, all was One - and I was one with all; and everything around me was like a sweet, diaphanous, blossoming rose of glimmering twilight, soft and serene, and perfumed
with an angel's song. All was bliss - a deep, nostalgic, melancholy bliss of
such a nature as I will never be able to put into words - all was Love and light and shade... They were the most ecstatic, achingly
beautiful sensations I had ever experienced, and had a profound impact upon my
life: not only did they turn me from a radical atheist into a deeply religious
person, but they also impacted all of my personal ideological convictions -
social, political, economical, moral, aesthetical - which had now, somehow, become certainties. Here was an endless spring of Truth whence I could drink at any
time - I needed only to be surrounded by nature (or in any other sacred place, really), to
immerse myself in its contemplation, and it would pour forth its waters; and lo, every
illusion, doubt, and sorrow would suddenly be dispelled. I have never ceased to have these mystical experiences (for those wondering: no, I have never done
drugs), and to this day they have continued to shape my spiritual identity and
my relationship with the Divine. |
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suitkees
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Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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Posted: February 26 2021 at 04:24 |
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As soon as someone is writing truth with a capital T, I am getting very suspicious... As soon as someone pretends to know the truth, I am getting very suspicious... As soon as someone claims to know the path to truth, I am getting very suspicious... For me truth is man made, like (any) god is man made. That's my truth. And it feels good!
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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SolNiger
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Joined: February 23 2021 Location: Portugal Status: Offline Points: 91 |
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Posted: February 26 2021 at 04:35 |
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I am sorry you feel that way. But remember, just because something "feels good" doesn't mean that it conforms to Truth (with a capital T)
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suitkees
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Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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Posted: February 26 2021 at 04:49 |
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Oh, please, you don't have to be sorry. First, it comes over as very patronizing; second, really, I'm fine. I just don't believe there is Truth with a capital T, but if someone thinks there is and is happy with that belief, that's fine with me too. |
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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SolNiger
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Joined: February 23 2021 Location: Portugal Status: Offline Points: 91 |
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Posted: February 26 2021 at 06:29 |
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I do apologize if I came across as patronizing, that was not my intention. As for the pseudo-philosophical sophistry of relativism (which is always and necessarily an intrinsic fallacy and inherently self-refuting) and which you espouse, there is no point debating it, so I will refrain from doing so (after all, relativist arguments have no place in genuine philosophy, for Sophia is its aim, and knowledge requires an object, i.e. a so-called "objective" truth to be known). Suffice to say that an ideological framework which does not allow for the existence of absolutes (or the Absolute - there's that capital letter again) can be no more than an intellectual void wherein all truths are equally valid for the simple reason that all truths are nothing but illusions - an "equality" which, like all modern applications of the term, is wholly horizontal and reductive, and thus bereft of all value.
Edited by SolNiger - February 26 2021 at 06:51 |
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suitkees
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Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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Posted: February 26 2021 at 10:56 |
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Nice to apologize, but don't worry, I can take a sneer. Just don't feel sorry for me because I think differently than you do. But you're not making your case easier: you project a philosophical stance on me (relativism, but it's actually a bit more complicated than that...) in order to dismiss it then as "pseudo-philosophical sophistry" and a way of thinking that is "an intrinsic fallacy and inherently self-refuting." You're making your case even worse by stating that "relativist arguments have no place in genuine philosophy", showing that you have missed the boat of a lot of twentieth century philosophy (and 21st, for that matter) and apparently prefer to remain stuck in a 19th century stance of positivism that believes there is something of an absolute knowledge (the ultimate goal of every science and every religion...). You imply that something has to "conform to Truth" in order to be qualified as knowledge, but the correspondence theory of knowledge is very outdated and simplistic. I suppose you also dismiss everything that epistemology, phenomenology and hermeneutics have brought to philosophy these last 120 years or so, since they will very much shake your foundations of absolutism.
You're absolutely free to dismiss them, but my ideological/philosophical framework does indeed not allow for absolutes. Knowledge is by definition subjective (it is always the knowledge of someone; a shared knowledge is shared by a greater number/a sum of subjectivities, that we can also call conventions or agreements). That is not the same as saying "all truths are equally valid" and then concluding that "all truths are nothing but illusions" - you actually give a nice example of sophistry here. I believe in truths! Note the plural! I don't believe in one truth that is the absolute reference for everything; in my opinion that can only lead to dogmatism and extremism. And I am not alone in that thinking: there are even Christians taking that stance. The Italian philosopher, and god-believing Christian, Gianni Vattimo for example wrote a little book that might interest you, was it only to sharpen your counter-arguments if you wish: A Farewell to Truth (2009), with a chapter titled: "Only a relativistic God can save us". You don't have to believe the same thing(s) as I do, we can still make a society. That is: if you accept that I believe something else than you and that you don't want to impose your Truth on me. I accept that you believe in your Truth, I just don't believe in it myself, and I will remain very suspicious towards everything you claim to be Truth or Knowledge... |
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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SolNiger
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Joined: February 23 2021 Location: Portugal Status: Offline Points: 91 |
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Posted: February 26 2021 at 12:52 |
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Hey, I just like being nice 
Most 20th and 21th century "philosophy" is actually the opposite of genuine philosophy. It is a love of ignorance, conscious or otherwise.
You get me wrong, I am no positivist. I have zero faith in modern "science", nor do I believe that it can get anywhere near Truth; nor am I a rationalist in any way, shape, or form. See, there is a false dichotomy in all these modern ideologies which appear to contradict one another. Underneath their superficial contraditions, all the "-isms" of modernity have the same source and lead to the same end: they begin and end in darkness. Is the aim of religion to attain absolute knowledge? Well, yes and no. This is really not the appropriate time or place to discuss that though, and it would be pointless.
If the "truths" you believe in are indeed "true", they must either be the whole Truth or fragments, reflections of it. If the "truths" you believe in do not mirror or emanate from the Absolute in any way, they are therefore illusory, necessarily so; and you must accept that fact from a logical perspective, whether or not you are willing to. By "dogmatism and extremism", do you mean in religion? Dogmas are (or should be) a central component of religion on an exoteric level. However, so-called "religious fundamentalism" stems not from a true understanding of said dogmas, but from the ignorance of their very nature and reason for being. "Religious fundamentalists" take the relative for the Absolute, and either cannot or do not want to realize that on the level of Relativity the Absolute can express Itself in an infinite multiplicity of forms, each one being just as true an expression as the other. Their error is to take the effects for the cause, and the outward for that which is inward.
Vattimo is anything but a Christian, and whether or not he claims to be one is irrelevant. I appreciate the recommendation though.
I admire your tolerance and respect for different beliefs. And don't worry, I am not trying to impose anything on anyone (not the least because Truth cannot be imposed, only comprehended). I dislike engaging in discussions of any kind, and I already regret having engaged in this one, for it could never lead anywhere, and the only good thing that could come out of it would be a better mutual understanding of each other's points of view, something which is really not worth the time and effort. As it is stated in the Quran (109:6), "Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion." Anyway, hope you have a great weekend!
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suitkees
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Joined: July 19 2020 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 9050 |
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Posted: February 26 2021 at 14:35 |
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Thanks. You too. For me it is never a waste of time to better understand the reasoning of someone else but there's indeed no point in bringing this further since our views are worlds apart. We may have more common ground regarding music...
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The razamataz is a pain in the bum |
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dr wu23
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Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20666 |
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Posted: February 27 2021 at 10:10 |
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"Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized, nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path". ~ Krishnamurti.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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SolNiger
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Joined: February 23 2021 Location: Portugal Status: Offline Points: 91 |
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Posted: February 27 2021 at 12:36 |
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I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound arrogant or to say that I have no interest in understanding your reasoning. I just don't think we could ever reach any sort of consensus on this matter, and when consensus is impossible discussion becomes an exercise in futility.
Oh, I'm sure we do! And I would rather focus on that indeed
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SolNiger
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Posted: February 27 2021 at 12:46 |
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Krishnamurti was a quite misguided individual concerning many aspects, including this one. Truth is of course "limitless, unconditioned", being in itself synonymous with God. But to claim that it is "unapproachable by any path whatsoever" reveals the profoundest ignorance, not only of the fundamental nature of fallen man and Creation as a whole, as well as of the hierarchy of Divine manifestation and the relationship between the Absolute and the plane (or planes) of relativity, but also of the most basic notions of metaphysics and even of God. It would be more correct to say that the paths toward Truth are infinite (for an infinite number of lines may link a circumference to its center) than to claim no paths lead to it (which would make Truth absolutely unapproachable indeed) - and this is not by any means to say that every conceivable "path" is a valid one, quite on the contrary.
Edited by SolNiger - February 27 2021 at 13:53 |
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18956 |
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Posted: February 27 2021 at 13:52 |
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Hey, I like Krishnamurti. He was spot on regarding education and other things as well. I do think he went a bit loopy with meditation though. He thought that practically anything could be seen as meditation and that's just downright silly.
 Other than that he was a cool guy. ;)
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dr wu23
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Joined: August 22 2010 Location: Indiana Status: Offline Points: 20666 |
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Posted: February 28 2021 at 10:48 |
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Spoken like someone who has misunderstood Krishnamurti's point , has chosen a path, and thinks it's the correct one. This of course has biased and distorted the search for 'unconditioned truth'.  Edited by dr wu23 - February 28 2021 at 11:08 |
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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dr wu23
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Posted: February 28 2021 at 10:56 |
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I read several of his main books many years ago...and watched a few old videos also back in the 80's. Some great wisdom and insights into religion, truth ,and non attachment. I don't recall anything about meditation on 'anything' at all. Can you link to a part in a book or a talk that shows this or is this just a sense you got from his ideas?
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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AFlowerKingCrimson
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Joined: October 02 2016 Location: Philly burbs Status: Offline Points: 18956 |
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Posted: February 28 2021 at 12:48 |
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I don't remember which book I read that in but I think it was a book he wrote on meditation. I just don't know where it is or if I still have it. He basically didn't agree with the idea of meditation being just this thing where you sit still and do nothing. In a sense I agree because if you wash the dishes and only pay attention to the washing aspect and don't let your mind wander in a sense that is sort of a meditation. He just seemed to get a little carried away with that concept though. Unfortunately, like I said, I don't know where that book is. I can send you a pm with more specifics if I find it though.
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dr wu23
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Posted: February 28 2021 at 13:37 |
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Ok...no problem. Meditation and the various types is tricky. There isn't one way only to meditate. One can us a mantra, or empty mind type, or watching the breath, etc...to me his main point was not to get hung up on a particular religion or path and lose sight of the goal...which was to be free of these things in the end.
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One does nothing yet nothing is left undone.
Haquin |
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Shadowyzard
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Joined: February 24 2020 Location: Davutlar Status: Offline Points: 4506 |
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Posted: February 28 2021 at 16:49 |
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I don't believe in any religion or God. Yet, I've been apathetic about such concepts, more than feeling resentment or hostility towards them, for a very long time. I think if I have to fit in a "belief category", it'd be apatheism.
The one below is one of my favourite quotes. Don't get me wrong, I see my intellect and wisdom as mine. You know? I believe in individuality and everyone has their own unique wits and they are not quintessentially "superior" to one another. In technical terms, we may have superior or inferior mental qualities, but I see IQ tests and stuff within the scope of the nuisance called the "Western categorization". As far as I've inferred; in technical, scientific etc. fields, categorization can be a very useful tool, but other than that, I see it like a sickness. This is a long story, so I'll not delve into the details now. I can give just one example though: I assert that a person with a solid geometry education can do better in an IQ test than a person without one... (I was once interested in these tests when I was "naive", and got quite high scores, by the way.) Anyway, upbringing is a critical issue in being religious or not, I think. People who never experience religious imposition (like myself) or people who grow up with overwhelming religious pressure can easily become atheists; the former may naturally not be enemies of those concepts, while the latter can naturally and understandably be. As I said, we are all individuals, so my deduction concerning this matter is not exhaustive. Anyway, some things incredible happened in my life too. Let them be a mystery here. 
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oliverstoned wrote: