Libertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!

I'm not saying government should be the ONLY way to organize society. I'm saying that the ONLY function of government is to organize society. Hopefully that distinction is communicated.

Negoba wrote: I'm not saying government should be the ONLY way to organize society. I'm saying that the ONLY function of government is to organize society. Hopefully that distinction is communicated. Government should be the servant of society. I know that it is not in reality. But that's not because it's impossible.

I do get that and since you re stated my point I wont, but sorry it IS impossible. For us.

You are right, it's not impossible and in those lovely nordic countries I like to point out they do have governments (large ones too) that just do their job...and I'm sure there are other examples but ours is littered with corruption, greed, and a bad mindset. Any fan of history knows how deeply rooted it is too.

Believe me man I was in your boat for a long time. I believe in government but one that does its job, or the "right" government, etc etc and even though we don't have that maybe we will!
Until I finally accepted no, we will not. It won't fix itself, nor will a handful of good politicians. So what is there to do?
I am 100% open to ideas on how to "fix" the government but they need to be realistic and more importantly passable. Remember, the government makes the laws so it'd be tough to impose anything on them they don't want!

Also remember, it's not just federal...the local level which has so much direct impact on us is also tainted. Maybe not as badly but we know it's there. I know someone (in Western PA ironically!) that is pretty much in it for his benefit and to help his friends. It goes from the top to the bottom, how the hell can we change that?
Only thing that makes sense to me is scale it back.


Edited by JJLehto - February 15 2012 at 14:37

Negoba wrote:     I'm remembering that institutionalized force is your big defining element of government vs private organization. And I probably need to do some reading on that specific point and how it effects the political arena.   But as JJ pointed out, that doesn't have to be the way government functions. In fact, there are countries where government simply functions for the public good.   And there are governments that pretty much function as "We got the guns. You do whatever the f we say."

I agree, but sometimes the public good isn't so good for the public.

^Cameras can be turned into a horrible control tool. Bad as cops are, they are not omnipresent and they can't be in a place all the time recording eveything people do.

I don't like either of them. If the cameras were only used for traffic things, ok. But there are humans behind them.

In the end damn humans given too much force and authority are the problem.

JJLehto wrote: Semi related to thread: am I the only one that likes to wave or give the peace/metal horns sign when I drive by the cameras they have on traffic lights? I see em now from NYC to semi rural PA and on pretty much every light...it freaks me the hell out. Truly are watched at every light now and you never wanna risk it because they do mail out tickets. To think you can not even be seen by a human being and just have a ticket mailed to you, it can't be disputed either. Scary! Of course they send out enough tickets to make sure we know they will do it. Aaron Turner was right! We are living in the Panopticon What do you guys here think about it? What if the police force could be drastically trimmed, thus we'd have to deal with cops a lot less and it'd ease the tax burden, but comes at the fact we are under the omnipresent eye? Would you prefer the police force as we have it now or something like the camera system?

They're at every intersection in Philly too. They're not all rred light cameras though. I'm not sure what function they supposedly serve. I don't like them regardless though.

Gamemako wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: They're at every intersection in Philly too. They're not all rred light cameras though. I'm not sure what function they supposedly serve. I don't like them regardless though. Some are not even recording but are merely meant to detect vehicles at intersections for traffic control. They are typically mounted next to lights and facing oncoming traffic. Red light cameras are usually facing the opposite direction or are on corners. Some are recording, though, and I'm sure the DoT wouldn't hesitate to turn it over to the Po-Po. In a city, I'd wager that every one is recording, because the local PD gets what it wants.

Yes I'm aware. The second sentence is my fear. I'm not sure what they actually do between the supposed purpose and the potential use.

Slartibartfast wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Yes I'm aware. The second sentence is my fear. I'm not sure what they actually do between the supposed purpose and the potential use. It's too late.  If they are going to be adapted to spy on people you won't even know when it happens.  Drones are getting more sophisticated.  Be afraid be very afraid.  Run to seek shelter and hide away in caves.  But even there you won't be safe.

Are you suggesting that my privacy concerns are not legitimate?

Gamemako wrote: Equality 7-2521 wrote: Are you suggesting that my privacy concerns are not legitimate? I believe he's suggesting that this battle is already lost.

They haven't crushed a violent revolution yet so I wouldn't say the battle is lost.

Exactly Pat (and others) that is why I was curious if you would prefer the physical police force (and all the problems that go with it, over some 1984esque state.
Obviously I prefer the former.

I really do believe part of it is the mental game as well. We watch ourselves knowing police could be around but they are humans as well...cameras though, no getting past them and they are everywhere now. It really is like a Panopticon (OK I'm listening to Isis so forgive me) we have a sense of being constantly observed and we don't where or by who...and whoever they, those few can watch the many from secrecy. A giant mindf**k.

Though of course they do mail tickets just to make sure we know they will

Of course this is nothing new, I recall a few years ago Lancaster, PA made the news for setting up like thousands of cameras all over, and I'm sure there are god knows how many we don't see...
At the risk of sounding like some crazed libertarian, with all this stuff, bills passed/attempted to be passed and just daily living, I sometimes do wonder if the days of tyranny are upon us. Getting worse and more desperate as the SS United States keeps sinking on the world stage.

They cause accidents by making people overly cautious. I think I saw statistics which said there was an increase in rear end collisions due to red light cameras. All red light camera citations are looked at by the police before being issued. If any portion of your vehicle is in the intersection and the light is yellow.....you are good to go.