Libertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!
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Topic: Libertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!
Posted By: horsewithteeth11
Subject: Libertarian Thread #2: We Shall Never Die!
Date Posted: December 28 2010 at 20:16
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The original one became buggy so I took the liberty (pun intended) to open another one. Go me! http://finance.yahoo.com/taxes/article/111668/where-do-you-rank-as-a-taxpayer?mod=taxes-filing" rel="nofollow - Let's rank how much each of us pays the government! Or how much the government steals from us depending on which side you're on! http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101226/ap_on_hi_te/us_anti_spam_crusader" rel="nofollow - Is what this guy is doing worthwhile or not? You decide. ------------- 
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Replies:
Posted By: caretaker
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 07:15
| A million bucks in 8 years. Not bad. As for the taxes, I always end up in that no man's land of paying more every year whether I report more or less income. But that includes state too. The article only included federal. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 09:00
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I don't agree with anti-spam laws. I don't quite see how someone is harmed by having a message sent to an email account they created for the sole purpose of receiving messages. It's largely a problem the market has worked towards correcting itself. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 09:08
| Phishing, information theft, trojans and viruses, trick schemes, false advertising, do you consider all these harmless? |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 10:28
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Nope I wouldn't. However, those things can be handled by existing laws against fraud, theft, destruction of property, and invasion of privacy. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 10:40
| Therefore you agree that at least a good portion of spam is to be dealt with (and by this ammend your previous post). |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 10:44
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Yes. It's just a subset of spam though which is the problem, not spam itself. Just as driving is not a problem, but vehicular homicide is. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 10:49
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So, now we know that somewhere around 265-270 pages is where a ProgArchives thread craps out. We pushed the site to brave new territory and the site blinked. Bravo, gentlemen. -------------  Time always wins. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 11:00
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I feel like Buzz Aldrin. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 11:19
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You did it because of me and my questions. That thread is now the stuff of legend. We should all go have a communal orgy... ------------- 
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 11:25
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You wouldn't have questions with my baffling political beliefs! I'm in for the orgy though. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Negoba
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 12:17
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Is there a such thing as a non-communal orgy?
Though it doesn't get much more libertarian than a hedonist free-for-all. ------------- You are quite a fine person, and I am very fond of you. But you are only quite a little fellow, in a wide world, after all. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 12:25
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The orgy presents a political paradox: a free-for-all libertarian pleasure activity and at the same time a communal all-for-all socialized ritual... -------------
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 14:30
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The upper percentile pays less percentage wise on their income, though, because of the laws on capital gains, investment in real estate, etc. A big reason they pay more of the income tax is because they own so much more than everyone else. The top 1% http://politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2009/oct/01/michael-moore/moore-says-top-1-percent-owns-more-financial-wealt/" rel="nofollow - owns 30% of the wealth in the US and it's not in the link, but I've read it elsewhere and you can Google it, the bottom 50% owns like 3%. I don't see how you can say that the rich are getting a bad deal in America, especially with the extension of the Bush tax cuts. http://www.foxnews.com/health/2010/12/30/mans-penis-amputated-wrong-diagnosis" rel="nofollow - SOCIALIZED MEDICIIIIIIIIIINE! ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 14:43
I read something similar just yesterday: http://www.the-american-interest.com/article-bd.cfm?piece=906" rel="nofollow - http://www.the-american-interest.com/article-bd.cfm?piece=906 |
Henry Plainview wrote:Posted By: manofmystery
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 18:09
With a bunch of people who post in a prog forum? No thank you.
Though if the chick in harmonium's pic is coming then maybe I can be persuaded.   ------------- Time always wins. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 20:49
Because they're getting money stolen from them maybe? I don't get why people care so much about income inequality. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 20:55
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I kind of feel bad for the rich. Money is cool and all, but it's not everything. I don't really feel bad about them getting screwed with taxes though. Those people can afford a lawyer to figure out loopholes in the system. So, I only feel a little bit bad for them. The rest of the time they can go f**k themselves. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 20:57
Or racial inequality. I graduated from Fayetteville State University. I can't tell you how much I got to hear about how we need to "close the racial gap" in America. That is a concept I'll never grasp the merits of. And while I'm somewhat white, I'm mostly Cherokee. So there. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 21:30
I've done my bit to close the racial gap in my personal life. 
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 21:45
Go Slart! You like your ladies like I like my coffee, right?  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 23:26
I like my women like my composers: sad, Russian, and dead.
Well, for the first there's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality#Effects_of_inequality" rel="nofollow - all these things on Wikipedia . For the second, you don't find it somewhat alarming that black people are 12% of the population but 39% of the prisoners? ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: December 30 2010 at 23:32
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Well you basically just made a circular point. We should care about economic inequality because people care about economic inequality. That doesn't really make me understand the situation. I do find it somewhat troubling, but a good deal of that is due to corrupt police forces, drug laws, and a terribly biased judicial system. I blame the government for all of those things. Erase them and any racial disparities which arise won't trouble me in the least. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: December 31 2010 at 00:18
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 09:40
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I got into an argument about the drinking age with my friend last night. He thought that sans laws against drinking, there would be no social stigma attached to children drunkenness to act as a regulating device in lieu of government. People  ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 09:49
I find this point rather dubious: sometimes, the law is just the "translation" of a social stigma in the administrative organisation of a nation/state/group. I've never heard of a written law forbidding incest, yet this perversion is rarely performed. At least, the law only gives details about the way people are punished. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 09:55
You're getting into a whole weird area there.  By the way this whole we shall never die thing sounds a bit religious. But then again maybe Libertarianism is a religion and a weird little cult at that. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 09:57
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People get their causality mixed up. They seem to think that laws dictates popular behavior, but popular behavior becomes law. To remove a law against drinking is only to remove an after effect of an existing social belief about drinking. Clearly in the states 21 is absurd, but it's equally absurd to think that without a law against a drinking age we would see 7 year old kids getting loaded at the corner dive. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 09:59
I think at 7 I was partial to spinning around and making myself dizzy.  ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 10:01
This is what I'm saying. For a different example, laws that tell sex offenders they can't go on school grounds. Okay, let's see here...do people really think a sex offender will say "Gee, I'd really like to have my way with a 7-year-old boy today, but gosh darn it, the new law says I'm not allowed to go the a school or a park. Aw well. Let's see what's on TV." ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 10:04
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For a multi-billion dollar example see the war on ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 10:05
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How was your celebration last night Rob? ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 10:08
We danced (with the kids) to some Chuck Berry, Neil Diamond, Fleetwood Mac, Trick Pony, Shania Twain, and The Who. Then we watched The Waterboy starring Adam Sandler. Then we went to bed at 10 o'clock. How about you? ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 10:11
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Very nice. My friend threw a 'party'. Nobody showed up besides myself and ten of my friends. We hang out every weekend so it wasn't much different. I was on fire with beer pong, but my terrible partner kept me from winning a game. Pretty early night for me; I ended up leaving around two. Good time. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 10:14
I've never once played a drinking game. I'm pretty sure I'd drink everyone under the table and then some though. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 10:15
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You actually end up drinking less when you play beer pong. It's a fun game. I'd play it without drinking. I don't enjoy drinking games that require you to pound beer. I pay enough for Guinness I want to actually enjoy them. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 10:23
My daily routine tends to consist of a few good beers (of Yuengling quality or higher. I'm partial to Samuel Adams varities) then I pound cheap sh*t the rest of the night (Busch Light or Keystone Light). I've been on a wine kick lately too. Occasionally I enjoy liquor of whatever sort, but not too often. I wonder how this will eventually affect my health. All the alcoholics I know pounded heavy booze and developed liver problems. I drink 2-3 cups of coffee a morning (or tea), about a half a gallon of water in the afternoon, and then beer the rest of the day, and beer is about 90% water. My piss stays clear most of the time, which is more than I can say for soda drinkers (before I could buy beer, I drank a lot of soda). I think soda is incredibly worse than beer for a person. As Redd Foxx said though, "You'll look like a damn fool lying in the hospital dying of nothing." ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 10:27
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Your liver might disagree with your beer vs soda assessment. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 10:29
But my kidneys agree, and there are two of them.  ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 10:32
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Ah democracy. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 10:33
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Just make sure you get a yearly checkup Rob, to check your liver and kidney function. And I know you'll pay for it out of your own pocket, so that's on-topic. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 10:59
My girl (who's a doctor) says sodas are worse than beer, and drinking beer is also better than drinking vodka, brandy, whiskey, liquors etc. on a regular basis (I don't know what's the English name of this group of drinks). But that isn't saying that drinking beer is good for health. The only think she agrees upon as being healthy is the drinking of one glass of red wine each day. We do drink beer and cider once in a while, but not much. Our tradition says that one shot of strong liquor before lunch is good for the digestion, but she disagrees, and recently I've read a scientific article saying this tradition is false 
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 11:02
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I have a tradition that I have 3 beers before doing homework because it stimulates the mind. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 11:04
| ^ Does it work? |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 11:07
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No complaints. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 11:49
In moderation, I don't think it's particularly bad for health, other than that it consists of "empty" calories and if you're trying to watch caloric intake a glass of wine might be better than a beer. But the studies done on the good effects of wine have been extended to all alcoholic beverages (again, the key is moderation - 1-2 drinks per day). Soda really is a complete zero other than it might taste good. At this point in my life, I've cut it out almost completely. Most days for me it is coffee in the morning, water for lunch and dinner, and beer or wine in the evening. Occasionally we'll have wine with dinner or I'll have a beer at lunch. I'd like to start drinking more tea, which I have rarely. What this has to do with libertarianism, I have no idea, other than I hope I'm free to continue to consume what I want.  |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 11:53
| Agreed, and also my day looks almost the same as you described yours. Except that we take lunch late in the day, which is the perfect occasion for wine. (I usually drink after a meal, only rarely I drink just for the fun). |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 11:54
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Beer's problem is the carbs. Hello? Where the hell is Mikeo?
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 11:55
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Anything goes in the Libertarian thread. We recognize no central authority with monopoly power to determine what is and what is not proper discussion. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 12:01
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When I was a kid, my brothers and I collected cans to pay for things we wanted. We'd crush them up and dad would take them to the place to turn them in. Our next door neighbor was a man named Carlton Adams. He would spend his entire afternoon sitting on their backyard swing and drinking Olympia beer out of the can and smoking cigarettes. The man was a gold mine for us, because we'd get a 13 gallon trash bag full of beer cans every few days. Anyway, I always wondered how in the world a man could drink so much beer like that. Now I know. Thing is, he died early on in my teenage years. But he didn't die of beer consumption- he died of emphysema. I don't know anybody else who drinks beer like he did (other than me), so I have no idea how it will affect me, except to say that it keeps my kidneys flushed and my cholesterol in check. The funny thing is that we really don't even know the extent of what diet soda will do to people in the long term, because we've only known about Aspartame since 1965. We don't have any elderly people yet who drank 3+ diet sodas a day for most of their lives (although we do have many, many younger people who do, and interestingly enough, quite a number of them are overweight). ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 12:03
Depends on the brew. I mostly drink light beer at night, and so the carb content is relatively low. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 12:05
My uncle drank like you. Probably a little more than you, but his liver went out on him when he was 55. Small sample size though completely ignoring other factors that determine liver health. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 12:15
Did your uncle drink a lot of hard liquor? I don't. I should also point out that I refrain from taking medication that affects the liver (like acetaminophen). If I get a bad headache, I just deal with it. I also make sure I am replacing the lost B-vitamins and other nutrients. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 12:18
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No he drank Bud 40s religiously. I doubt he paid much attention to his vitamin intake though. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 12:22
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In other news, I've lost 8 pounds since I've moved. Got a head start on the New Year.
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 12:23
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I'm trying to gain 10 pounds myself. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 12:52
I'd gladly give you the 10 if I could. Got about 30 more after that if anyone else is interested. |
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 13:23
| Vitamins, minerals and nutrients are meant to be gotten from wholesome food ......not from pills, supplements etc..........nothing wrong with drinking some beers as long as you don't neglect the body's nutritional requirements. |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 13:55
Was it the moving that did it? I find if you are one of the ones doing it you can't help but shed a little weight. Moving experience ahead for us before the end of January if all goes well. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 14:03
I actually gained a pound after all that moving.  All I've been doing really is consciously cutting down on the size of my meal portions- that's really it. And I grill out about twice a week now. Good luck with your move. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: NecronCommander
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 14:17
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I've heard that eating as few as 100 calories less than your usual caloric intake per day, plus a half hour of exercise, can help drop at least half a pound a day. -------------  
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 14:36
Maybe during the first week or so as your body loses excess water. A pound of fat is about 3,500 calories, so to lose a pound of fat, you'd have to cut back / burn 500 calories a day to lose a pound of flab in one week. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 15:48
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How the hell are calories measured? I could understand how sugar, fat, and etc content can be measured in food, but what about calories? How does one determine "oh this banana has 50 calories" (other than reading the label, and how do they do it anyway?) -------------
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 15:53
"Calorie: a unit of heat equal to the amount of heat required to raise the temperature of one kilogram of water by one degree at one atmosphere pressure; used by nutritionists to characterize the energy-producing potential in food." ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 17:02
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I thought you guys might be interested by these articles about America that I just found: http://www.bostonreview.net/BR35.6/kennedy.php" rel="nofollow - http://www.bostonreview.net/BR35.6/kennedy.php http://nationalinterest.org/article/imperial-by-design-4576?page=show" rel="nofollow - http://nationalinterest.org/article/imperial-by-design-4576?page=show |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 18:59
Note that when discussing food, a "calorie" is actually a kilocalorie with respect to the above definition. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 20:10
And, entertainingly, in England they actually label it a kilocalorie. Americans are so lazy. :( But it's the same thing: they burn it and measure the amount of energy it produces. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 21:12
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So, too much energy makes you fat?
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Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 22:10
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As I've said before, don't let anyone tell you liberals are lazy. Hell, I'm socialistic and just got back from working M-Sat just under 55 hours in total. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 22:37
Those are kinda long bro. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: stonebeard
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 22:39
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Bet it feels good to feed the corporate machine, you evil, evil b*****d. ------------- http://soundcloud.com/drewagler" rel="nofollow - My soundcloud. Please give feedback if you want! |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 22:44
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BTW...it may be a bad page is all, but is thread even remotely about libertarianism now? Though the original started about an Ayn Rand interview and we made it what it was....so it doesn't matter. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 01 2011 at 22:49
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We briefly kind of sort of discussed some political stuff on the first pages. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 01:58
Ah. The original thread was pretty played out anyway. I like cheesecake. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 08:35
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It requires that Textbook come in an troll, or T ask a question, or GaryB come and ramble insanely. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: NecronCommander
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 08:38
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I know absolutely nothing about politics, I could come in here and do any of those three if necessary. -------------
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 08:47
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Go for it. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 08:49
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I can provide the condescending European tone, which is always such a good motivator for good debate. Ben did that much better but you'll have to settle with what's available. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 09:44
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I think the previos thread accomplished a lot: it made me realize Pat Shields is not actually insane. Sometime he takes it too far (private ownership of roads, please... Private police...) but in general, the less government, the less congressman deciding our fate and giving it away to corporations, the better.
Hate towards the rich is kind of engraved in my type of country (where politicias use it to gain votes, since most people are poor) but since I live here, I think more by myself... I still thinkmany of them act only on their behalf disregarding other people's rights, but many others don't. And, hell, what would the world of my favorite music (classical) be without private donations and rich people? Dead. .
The health care thing, though... I can't, no matter how I try, to see it as an activity where profit should be the main motivator... -------------
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Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 10:22
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I don't hate the rich I just wish they would treat the rest of us better. But as they say, wish in one hand and crap in the other and see which one fills up first. So the next best thing is a progressive rate income tax. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: NecronCommander
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 10:42
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I'm not a libertarian, but I do agree with you guys that there should be much less power given to the government concerning how they control certain areas of our life. The extent of how much that power should be lessened, though, is probably where I draw the line. I've always associated libertarianism with being a stone's throw away from anarchism, and I for one like the concept of government. -------------
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Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 11:19
| I've always liked libertarians' excellent tastes in music. |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 11:31
I don't think less government equals anarchism though. Less government switches the locus of chaos control from the governing body to the individual I guess. Also, there will always need control forces to protect rights (and not private forces or judges, please Shields). -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 11:33
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Posted By: NecronCommander
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 11:45
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Private police forces? *racks shotgun* -------------
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 19:07
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I have yet to hear a cogent argument for a public police force. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 19:18
A public police force benefits everyone indiscriminately (ideally). Pat, I think the ultimate reason you have a problem with a public police force is because many of the laws they are forced to enforce are stupid. A public police force should serve under the auspices of the judicial system, which ultimately is in existence to preserve the rights of the people. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: The T
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 19:24
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And a private justice system would work like the market, thus money will reign, not fairness.
Rob is right about the likely reason for Pat's weird idea of a private police force. -------------
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Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 19:37
Your point is unfortunately not true. Being a public good does not come close to implying that everyone is an equal beneficiary. Also, benefits are only one part of the equation. They must always be balanced by cost, both direct through monetary cost and indirect through corruption and abuse. My disgust with a public police force has little to do with the laws they enforce. I hate legislatures for that. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 19:38
The market maximizes people's preferences for a good with respect to cost. The element to be maximized for a justice system is fairness. I don't see any validity in your objection. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 20:00
By that logic, if you pay less, you don't get full fairness. I guess this is big enough a flaw. |
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 20:01
OMG DURR Which is why I said "ideally." Nothing works out perfectly when it comes to government- that doesn't mean government has no place.
It's called a "conflict of interest." I don't want police investigating me that someone who would do harm to me is paying for. That isn't police- it's thugism. We want an impartial party who gets paid across the board by everyone so they don't become goons to one party or another. ------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 20:04
How is that implied by that logic exactly? ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 20:06
Because by market laws if you don't have much money you can't buy the premium product ("full fairness" in this case), only the cheaper products. |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 20:08
That too.  |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 20:10
You can attach the word ideally to anything. That doesn't serve as a justification. The problem is that ideal scenario doesn't really come close to existing under a public police system.
What if the same company is employed by you? What if you're being investigated by the the Tennessee police department? Why is the government necessarily impartial? Sure this is easier if we assume that government police forces don't prefer one party to the next. Unfortunately the way that public goods work is that the provider of the public good is responsive to none of its consumers rather than being responsive to all of them equally. The public good isn't payed for which eliminates all incentive to respond to consumer demands. In fact, a disincentive actually exists in many circumstances. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 20:11
The same logic applies to production of any necessity. Should government provide food also? ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 20:11
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sh*t IS BEING DISCUSSED NOW BOY!!!!! ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |
Posted By: harmonium.ro
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 20:21
I thought I made it clear that my point is that we shouldn't apply this logic from one domain to the other exactly because it provides aberrant results. Your last response highlights this perfectly. |
Posted By: Equality 7-2521
Date Posted: January 02 2011 at 20:26
I don't really understand what you're saying. The identifying marker of a market system is the ability to do what I have just mentioned. Why shouldn't it be applied to this service? I don't see how anyone has identified this service as being fundamentally different from others. ------------- "One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. " |