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horsewithteeth11 
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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 Posted: December 14 2011 at 21:22 |
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: December 14 2011 at 21:23 |
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TheDoc, can you tell me when and where in the entire world have the "masses" ever had power? And please, neither a group of 10 people called the "politburo", nor a slightly larger group called "the communist party", nor a group of wealthy congressmen receiving rich diets, qualify as "the masses" or even represent them. They represent themselves and their interests.
Also, as for your fanatic despise for America and your love for Europe, have you ever read a little history? Do you realize the centuries of European history are all but filled with atrocities precisely against "the masses"? What a coincidence, many of those atrocities were actually done in the name of "the masses".
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 14 2011 at 21:29 |
 horsewithteeth11 wrote:
King Crimson776 wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
My apologies then.
I still find your statement very misguided.
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Ok, but I don't see how else you could get big business to stop exploiting the gov't... there are people who are idealists and would try to change it, but I have my doubts as to whether it's even possible for them to get elected. |
1) Kill most/all of the government's revenue
2) Kill it's printing press (the Fed) so it can't print all the money it wants and manipulate interest rates to fight off market forces.
Doing both would also get rid of those pesky lobbyists because they wouldn't have any political favor to buy. That seemed simple enough.
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I just wouldn't have a government.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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The T
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: October 16 2006
Location: FL, USA
Status: Offline
Points: 17493
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Posted: December 14 2011 at 21:32 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I just wouldn't have a government |
/most problems
Edited by The T - December 14 2011 at 21:33
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King Crimson776
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2779
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Posted: December 14 2011 at 21:37 |
horsewithteeth11 wrote:
King Crimson776 wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
My apologies then.
I still find your statement very misguided.
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Ok, but I don't see how else you could get big business to stop exploiting the gov't... there are people who are idealists and would try to change it, but I have my doubts as to whether it's even possible for them to get elected. |
1) Kill most/all of the government's revenue
2) Kill it's printing press (the Fed) so it can't print all the money it wants and manipulate interest rates to fight off market forces.
Doing both would also get rid of those pesky lobbyists because they wouldn't have any political favor to buy. That seemed simple enough.
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How do you do all of this though, who gets it done?
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King Crimson776
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 12 2007
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 2779
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Posted: December 14 2011 at 21:46 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I just wouldn't have a government. |
Ok, I wonder how much I'll have to cough up before the firemen put out my burning house.
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: December 14 2011 at 21:48 |
The Doctor wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
Epignosis wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
The T wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
The T wrote:
No, it basically aims to eliminate that power that allows government to get in bed with wealthy elitists and ubercorporations for the exclusive benefit of a few.
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To speak for me personally, libertarianism also hopes to smash down ubercorporations as JJ puts it. Yes the methods it takes differ from those of others since the market failure which allows an exploitative corporation to succeed implies the aid of government regulations or funds somewhere in the equations. I have a particular disdain for pharmaceutical companies. I think they get rich by essentially exploiting the rest of us. Attacking them is pointless though. That's like trying to destroy a tree by eating the apples. You're just letting the tree grow taller and fertilizing the tree's seeds.
The T wrote:
What is really worrying and at times even repulsive is the implicit moral judgement that TheDoctor seems to make based on a person's wealth. One can read between the lines: the wealthy are always bad, sacks of corruption, decayed immoral criminals, abusers, BAD people; the poor are NEVER ever poor for their bad decisions or work ethic or anything, they are pure, perfect, all screwed up by the guy above.
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In his defense, it may appear that we claim that all the government does is ipso facto evil and all private sector good. If he believes this, I just wish he would justify it in some way. I certainly believe that everything done by government has some degree of evil in it, but I do not shy away from attacking private entities either. |
And as you know, so do I. Evil wealthy people can be even more evil because of government's help. I don't want a corporatist world any more than TheDoc's want it. But I want no proletarian dictatorship either. And the constant idea I get from The Doc's posts is class warfare. |
Of course I'm engaged in class warfare. But the class warfare wasn't started by the middle class and the poor. The class war was begun by the wealthy elite, by taking more and more from the lower classes to line their own pockets. It's a war that has been fought time and time again. I would hope that someday, greed and lust for power will not be mankind's most apparent trait. Throughout history, the wealthy have tried to take more and more from the masses and oppress those masses until the masses strike back and regain control. Then the cycle starts again. I'm simply one of the masses who has had enough.
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Can you please show me one time in American history where "the masses" had "control?"
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I know it is probably hard for you to fathom, but there was history prior to America, and there will continue to be history long after we're gone. America is not the center of the universe. Where did I once mention American history? 
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I didn't say you mentioned American history. But I am asking about it.
You live in America. You are a proponent of government fixing things. So I am asking this: Please show me one time in American history where "the masses" had "control."
I answer your questions directly. Please stop avoiding mine.
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Sadly, I am unable to dispute that. How I wish I could. Sadly, I was born American instead of European, where at least greed has not completely become the religion of the countries there.
The masses have never risen up to take direct control in America. That doesn't mean it can't or won't happen if things keep on the way they're going. Although, I have strong reservations about the collective intelligence of the American people and their ability to unite to oppose the corporate fascists.
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So, perhaps poor Americans are poor because they are stupider than their bosses?
And yet again, you fail to address my question, and do so by bemoaning the fact that you weren't born in Europe (protip: Piss off there if you like).
Here's my question for a third time:
The Doctor wrote:
Throughout history, the wealthy have tried to take more and more
from the masses and oppress those masses until the masses strike back
and regain control. Then the cycle starts again. I'm simply one of the
masses who has had enough. |
Can you please show me one time in American history where "the masses" had "control?"
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The Doctor in his previous post: The masses have never risen up to take direct control in America.
Had you actually bothered to read my post, instead of looking for every opportunity to attack, you would have seen that I directly answered your question. So there it is in BOLD, so you can't miss it this time.
As for pissing off, I could make the same suggestion to you. However, I can tell you that the European governments don't really want us there. Gee. I wonder why.
However, in the interests of peace, I will stop posting any more in any political forums as I can tell that they are overrun with libertarians and evil conservatives, and before I end up telling certain people what I really think of them. That's it. I'm out. You all can go, er, um, celebrate with yourselves now. 
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You have just conceded defeat. And here's why:
1) If the masses have never risen to take direct control of America (silly concept that, given that America was a group that overthrew English control because they hated governmental forces from afar), then you have no basis to say:
TheDoctor wrote:
"Throughout history, the wealthy have tried to take more and more
from the masses and oppress those masses until the masses strike back
and regain control. Then the cycle starts again.
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It's been 200+ years. No such revolution has taken place in America. Why?
2) You abhor the monetary elite, yet above you clearly believe that the American middle and lower classes are stupid compared to their "oppressors."
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Epignosis
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: December 30 2007
Location: Raeford, NC
Status: Offline
Points: 32553
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Posted: December 14 2011 at 21:49 |
King Crimson776 wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I just wouldn't have a government. |
Ok, I wonder how much I'll have to cough up before the firemen put out my burning house. |
Welcome n00b! 
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: December 14 2011 at 22:10 |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: December 14 2011 at 22:13 |
horsewithteeth11 wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
JJLehto wrote:
Doc is one of those leftists that give us all a bad name, I was able to tell from post one. After some BotD I have to conclude, yes. :(
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Stop trying to suck up to the righties, so you'll look cool to your friends, JJ.
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Well, if you assume that libertarians are on the right, then you certainly have a lot to learn.
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True, either a fail troll or just a fail. You're not alone Doc, there's lots of you guys. This a****le on FB that kept making a big whoop about how "occupy" was going to be it, the change and wouldn't quit posting anarchist punk songs and telling me I need to start occupying like he was. Now he claims it was doomed from the start and it was stupid, I reminded him I said such a thing and he just made some rambling post about how my attitude is what gave rise to the nazis. he has a long history of that actually.. nice eh? Those liberals give us a bad name.
Edited by JJLehto - December 14 2011 at 22:14
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: December 14 2011 at 22:18 |
The Doctor wrote:
However, in the interests of peace, I will stop posting any more in any political forums
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Sure. And I'll wear a blond wig and a dress to the office tomorrow.
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: December 14 2011 at 22:22 |
Padraic wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
However, in the interests of peace, I will stop posting any more in any political forums
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Sure. And I'll wear a blond wig and a dress to the office tomorrow.
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I know for a fact you already do that. Sheesh it's looking worse Doc, people already say us lefties are weak and PC and afraid of making anyone upset...get a backbone  I was a pain in these guys sides for well over 300 pages, sometimes just for kicks! OK also I have slight to severe homosexual crushes on them which the government should keep its bad hands off of!!!
Edited by JJLehto - December 14 2011 at 22:23
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Padraic
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator
Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
Status: Offline
Points: 31169
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Posted: December 14 2011 at 22:24 |
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: December 14 2011 at 22:27 |
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Equality Pat still owes me beer and cheesesteaks.
Maybe on the next Cowboys game so I can wear a Giants jersey without fear of those brutish animals stabbing me.
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horsewithteeth11
Prog Reviewer
Joined: January 09 2008
Location: Kentucky
Status: Offline
Points: 24598
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Posted: December 15 2011 at 08:49 |
King Crimson776 wrote:
horsewithteeth11 wrote:
King Crimson776 wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
My apologies then.
I still find your statement very misguided.
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Ok, but I don't see how else you could get big business to stop exploiting the gov't... there are people who are idealists and would try to change it, but I have my doubts as to whether it's even possible for them to get elected. |
1) Kill most/all of the government's revenue
2) Kill it's printing press (the Fed) so it can't print all the money it wants and manipulate interest rates to fight off market forces.
Doing both would also get rid of those pesky lobbyists because they wouldn't have any political favor to buy. That seemed simple enough.
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How do you do all of this though, who gets it done? |
1) Slowly, over a gradual process, eliminate most or all forms of taxation. 2) Slowly, over a gradual process, phase the Federal Reserve out of existence. Might want to start with a nice external audit of them just so most people can realize how much harm they've caused to the U.S. (and world for that matter) economy over the last 100 years. As for who gets it done, it requires the people to have a better understanding of free markets and history. That and showing enough of them the truth will eventually convince them to loosen the shackles of government. If you want me to elaborate more, I'm sure myself and several others in this thread would be more than glad to.
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stonebeard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: May 27 2005
Location: NE Indiana
Status: Offline
Points: 28057
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Posted: December 15 2011 at 11:16 |
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I'm just going to say something here. I would really like to have a hardcore Democrat here who can argue in a reasonable manner. Even if I didn't identify with libertarianism, though I do, I think I would probably appreciate the fact that people here normally can make clear statements, not read into others' statements what they did not actually say, and attack the focal points of an argument one at a time, and precisely. Also, it's not particularly helpful to call the people you're arguing "evil". Last time I checked, all the libertarians here don't resort to ad hominem every other post. I'm not calling out or attacking the character of Slart or The Doctor, but I think a lot of us have probably felt they have not made the most well-stated case for a progressive government here.
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 15 2011 at 12:01 |
King Crimson776 wrote:
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
I just wouldn't have a government. |
Ok, I wonder how much I'll have to cough up before the firemen put out my burning house. |
I don't know. We could check the historical records. Or you could ask the volunteer fireman all throughout PA. Or you could realize that current government control of an industry does not preclude private control of that industry in the past, present, or future. Or if you prefer to do none of these things, you could present an actual argument as to why fire services cannot be provided on an open market.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 15 2011 at 12:02 |
Padraic wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
However, in the interests of peace, I will stop posting any more in any political forums
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Sure. And I'll wear a blond wig and a dress to the office tomorrow.
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And I will donate to the IRS.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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Equality 7-2521
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 11 2005
Location: Philly
Status: Offline
Points: 15784
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Posted: December 15 2011 at 12:03 |
JJLehto wrote:
Equality Pat still owes me beer and cheesesteaks.
Maybe on the next Cowboys game so I can wear a Giants jersey without fear of those brutish animals stabbing me.
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I am off the week of the 25th.
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"One had to be a Newton to notice that the moon is falling, when everyone sees that it doesn't fall. "
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JJLehto
Prog Reviewer
Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Status: Offline
Points: 34550
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Posted: December 15 2011 at 12:16 |
Equality 7-2521 wrote:
Padraic wrote:
The Doctor wrote:
However, in the interests of peace, I will stop posting any more in any political forums
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Sure. And I'll wear a blond wig and a dress to the office tomorrow.
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And I will donate to the IRS.
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hehe it's like you have a choice! Good point Drewbeard, though I would take a guess (since none are here) that hard core Republicans would behave in the same way.
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