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O666

Forum Senior Member

Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
Status: Offline
Points: 2619

Posted: September 22 2010 at 12:52

Dean wrote:

O666 wrote:

Hi. Thank you. Now I'm sure if you (PA) want to BIAS one album or one style, You can do that.

How would we do that?

We have 253 collaborators on the site out of a total membership of 29,810 - even with a weighting of x2 we cannot begin to compete against a population 100 times larger.

If you consider the top 5 albums have 750-1000 ratings each and the vast majority of those ratings are from non-collaborators, (for example Selling England By the Pound has 986 ratings but only 98 collaborator reviews), so any bias we could attempt to create is easily beaten by the non-collab ratings.

Also, we cannot all agree on what is Prog so there is no way I, or anyone else, can convince 252 singleminded collaborators to bias a single album - it simply will not work.

O666 wrote:

But I'm sure PA is the best prog site in the world (IMO) and honestly I trust to PA.

Good

Forgive me Octopus. I promise you this one is last. OK Dean you write:

If anyone rates an album without writing a review it scores 1

If anyone rates an album and writes a review it scores 5

If a collaborator writes a review it scores double a nomal review

This is not about 2x. This is about 10x . For example SEBtP as you said has 986 ratings and as you said only! 98 collaborator reviewer rate this album.Now if they want to BIAS this album we reach to 980 rate!!!! and if 50 of collabs rate high we reach to 500 of 986 with 50 persons!! This mean " If " PA wants ( I never said PA wants) to bias, PA can and this is a answer to your question How would we do that. Please dont upset. As I said before I TRUST TO PA . I have a good job and I am a busy man. I must make money for my family. Writing in English is very hard for me and the only reason I am in PA is I love PA and I trust to PA 100%.

Octopus I'm sorry and I dont continue this discuss. Please forgive me again.

Dean

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575

Posted: September 22 2010 at 13:13

octopus-4 wrote:

PA is an open site on which everybody can register, even those who don't know anything of prog music.

Leaving the admins and designed experts the possibility to decide who include or not and allowing them more weight on their ratings is a way, probably not the best, to avoid seeing Lady Gaga in the top 10.

What's the best way?

IMBD allows anyone to rate a movie, but only ratings by reviewers with a minimum of 250 reviews are used in making their charts - this is stricter and more restictive than what we use here. Other sites are even more selective and do not allow just anyone to review or rate an album.

octopus-4 wrote:

Of course it looks like the admin group contains more King Crimson and Van der Graaf fans than the average of the world population, but this is a fact.

Really? Only two Admins put KC in their top-10 Prog album lists and two (different) Admins picked VdGG.

What?

Formentera Lady View Drop Down

Forum Senior Member

Joined: August 20 2010
Location: Germany
Status: Offline
Points: 1840

Posted: September 22 2010 at 13:23

octopus-4 wrote:

Of course it looks like the admin group contains more King Crimson and Van der Graaf fans than the average of the world population, but this is a fact.

What is wrong with that? Tongue

octopus-4

Special Collaborator

RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14418

Posted: September 22 2010 at 13:24

I don't have tp forgive anybody. Untilo there's nothing offensive you have the right to express your opinions. This is what a forum is for.

However I think you may give an interesting contribute to the discussion.

My assumptions are currently taking into account only the western side of the world.

My knowledge of Iranian music is limited to just few songs of Kourosh Yaghmaei. Can you tell us something about iranian prog and proggers? How sis they live the golden age? Did you have one? was it contemporary to the western?

Tell us something about Middle East if you like. For me it's an almost unknown world.

I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution

Dean

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575

Posted: September 22 2010 at 13:25

O666 wrote:

Forgive me Octopus. I promise you this one is last. OK Dean you write:

If anyone rates an album without writing a review it scores 1

If anyone rates an album and writes a review it scores 5

If a collaborator writes a review it scores double a nomal review

Octopus I'm sorry and I dont continue this discuss. Please forgive me again.

Nope, I don't agree with you.

A PA collaborator has to write a review to get 10x weighting. If a non-collaborator also writes a review they get 5x weighting - the difference is 2x.

If 98 collabs review and rate high then that is 98x10=980 - if the 888 non-collabs review and rate low then that is 888x5= 4,440 ... the non-collabs win.

If a collab rates without a review the weighting is 1 - exactly the same as a non-collab who rates without a review.

What?

octopus-4

Special Collaborator

RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14418

Posted: September 22 2010 at 13:25

Formentera Lady wrote:

octopus-4 wrote:

Of course it looks like the admin group contains more King Crimson and Van der Graaf fans than the average of the world population, but this is a fact.

What is wrong with that? Tongue

Nothing wrong, is just a fact.

What's wrong is SEbTP on the top. (Just my opinion, of course).

I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution

octopus-4

Special Collaborator

RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14418

Posted: September 22 2010 at 13:26

Nice picture. Is it Orion Nebula?

I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution

Dean

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575

Posted: September 22 2010 at 13:31

octopus-4 wrote:

Nice picture. Is it Orion Nebula?

It's the Trifid Nebula

Edited by Dean - September 22 2010 at 13:32

What?

Logan

Forum & Site Admin Group

Site Admin

Joined: April 05 2006
Location: Vancouver, BC
Status: Offline
Points: 36722

Posted: September 22 2010 at 13:59

Dean wrote:

octopus-4 wrote:

Nice picture. Is it Orion Nebula?

It's the Trifid Nebula

Otherwise known as the King Crimson Islands nebula.

O666

Forum Senior Member

Joined: September 20 2009
Location: TEHRAN-IRAN
Status: Offline
Points: 2619

Posted: September 22 2010 at 14:31

octopus-4 wrote:

I don't have tp forgive anybody. Untilo there's nothing offensive you have the right to express your opinions. This is what a forum is for.

However I think you may give an interesting contribute to the discussion.

My assumptions are currently taking into account only the western side of the world.

Tell us something about Middle East if you like. For me it's an almost unknown world.

Hi. I thought you angry because I start discuss that different to topic concept.Any sites defend theirself but I tell what I must to tell and I'm sure you undrestand me. I never break my promises and I can continue this discuss to the end. I am an engineer and I live with "Numbers". I work with mathematics and statics and I undrestand about odds.So. Many prog rock bands works in Iran but they work underground but outside Iran I can introduce you few Iranian Prog bands and artists:

Days between Stations (Eclectic)

Farzad Golpayegani (Prog Metal)

Azam Ali (Vocal of some bands like "quodia" and VAS,...)

and some artist I dont remeber their names in Archive,Haggard. And great Freddy mercury (Queen)

Some bands that work in Iran undercover but you can find them in internet like: Amertat,127 (now in US),Sarakhs,Darkub,Kaveh Yaghmaei(Kourosh's son in Canada),Babak Riyahipour(My dear friend and he released one album in Iran).Oham (Alternative)and .......

Iranian music fans(serious music) love Pink Floyd so much.We (Iranians) have good taste and respect to arts.Unfortunately we have anti-art goverment and they fight to west arts and ignore folk artists.The goverment help to their hand-make artists and make trouble for others.90% of Iranian people dont like this ideologic islamic goverment and try to find freedom BUT goverment have gun and they clash to us.Many sites filltered by goverment like Facebook,Youtube,tweeter even myspace and musical sites!!! You cant imagine what is atmospher in Iran.If you like to know more about Iran, You can find in Internet and I recommend you find what happend last year in Iran.Honestly I afraid to write more about politics and religion. I have 2 daughters and if they arrest me I dont know what happen to my family. Thanks.

octopus-4

Special Collaborator

RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14418

Posted: September 22 2010 at 14:45

Logan wrote:

Dean wrote:

octopus-4 wrote:

Nice picture. Is it Orion Nebula?

It's the Trifid Nebula

Otherwise known as the King Crimson Islands nebula.

oops...

I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution

octopus-4

Special Collaborator

RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14418

Posted: September 22 2010 at 15:02

O666 wrote:

octopus-4 wrote:

I don't have tp forgive anybody. Untilo there's nothing offensive you have the right to express your opinions. This is what a forum is for.

However I think you may give an interesting contribute to the discussion.

My assumptions are currently taking into account only the western side of the world.

Tell us something about Middle East if you like. For me it's an almost unknown world.

Days between Stations (Eclectic)

Farzad Golpayegani (Prog Metal)

Azam Ali (Vocal of some bands like "quodia" and VAS,...)

and some artist I dont remeber their names in Archive,Haggard. And great Freddy mercury (Queen)

Sorry, this wasn't my question, of course. I was thinking to the 70s. Nobody on this site has ever meant to make interferences with the politics of any country.

Let's keep politics and religion out of the discussion, specially when it's not safe.

I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution

ferush

Forum Senior Member

Joined: August 26 2006
Location: Mexico
Status: Offline
Points: 363

Posted: September 22 2010 at 15:39

Congratulations, well done; no doubt its a slanted curve jajajaja; Those times will return? they will after a music new revolution.

moshkito

Forum Senior Member

Joined: January 04 2007
Location: Grok City
Status: Offline
Points: 17906

Posted: September 22 2010 at 16:08

Dean wrote:

They have had the 250 reviews in there listed for some time. There are other advantages (I have reviewed more than that number of foreigh films ... more like 500, though not all of them are posted in there as yet) ... and these would be some access to sharing of the information. It was through the IMDB that I have been asked twice already to have my reviews quoted on 2 different Film Festivals already.

I'm ok with the number ... I do think that we could do similar with the reviews ... up to 50 let's say ... but we would have to set some guidelines, I think. KC's first is a good example ... go look at the reviews listed ... and you can see three or four really good reviews in there and a couple that ... do not exactly qualify as "reviews" at all ... simply to say .. I don't care for it ... is NOT a review! And in my book, should be removed, or placed in a posting instead of a review.

The other one, is ... even though this might mean more work for Dean and a couple of others, that the folks determined to be "reviewers" should have a separate and dedicated area, since we know that they are going to give it more time and effort for a review. That is not to say that everyone else can not have a say, but the "reviewers" earned that right by the sheer volume of their work and dedication.

octopus-4 wrote:

Of course it looks like the admin group contains more King Crimson and Van der Graaf fans than the average of the world population, but this is a fact.

I don't have any issues with anyone choosing whatever ... the only concern I have is that anyone voting, should NOT be able to vote for the same band a second time ... so the list would be a bit wider and stronger all around ... instead of considering "albums" progressive" ... we're going to raise the stakes ... the artist is going to be listed and discussed as "progressive" ... and that's that ... this would reduce 4 albums by Genesis to one mention and 4 albums by Bruhaha to one mention ... and in the end make room for a lot more artists that deserve the credit and mention that will NOT get it ... because there are 4 KC albums, 4 Yes albums, 4 Genesis albums, 4 ELP albums, 4 Rush albums, 4 VDGG/PH albums ... which means that 18 other bands are not going to get listed and they deserve the mention ... it's what we're here for ... not to just be FANS of those 6 bands.

In the end, we're going to look a lot more valid and important when it comes to the definition and discussion of the music ... we have to be more pro-active in the area of not just being a fan ... but elevating it all further ... and we can not elevate 6 bands and ignore the rest! The breaking of the "music business" has been about taking down the monsters to make room for everyone else ... and what do we do? ... go for the monsters again ... it just doesn't feel conceptually right or progressive to me!

And yes, I would not mind being a part of the reviewers group ... but I have not been asked, and I don't really like to impose myself ... specially when it comes to the arts! That's one thing I have learned as a writer ... to maintain your "independence" you have to be yourself ... and it's like a painting or another piece of music ... you like it or you don't. And some want to say hello and others want to troll!

Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com

Slartibartfast View Drop Down

Collaborator

Honorary Collaborator / In Memoriam

Joined: April 29 2006
Location: Atlantais
Status: Offline
Points: 29630

Posted: September 22 2010 at 19:02

octopus-4 wrote:

The title is a joke, but the idea comes from a poll still open.

Let's look at the distribution of the top 10 albums in their years of release:

3 albums in 1972

2 in 1973 and 1975

1 in 1969, 1974 and 1977

Now let's extend the count to the top 20:

Can we try to explain this distribution ? Nothing scientific, just to discuss.

Someone probably already brought this up, but 3 + 2 + 1 does not equal 10. You're one of those people who give an album an x.5 star in the verbal review and then round down aren't you? Tongue

Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...

octopus-4

Special Collaborator

RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14418

Posted: September 22 2010 at 23:39

Slartibartfast wrote:

octopus-4 wrote:

The title is a joke, but the idea comes from a poll still open.

Let's look at the distribution of the top 10 albums in their years of release:

3 albums in 1972

2 in 1973 and 1975

1 in 1969, 1974 and 1977

Now let's extend the count to the top 20:

Can we try to explain this distribution ? Nothing scientific, just to discuss.

Someone probably already brought this up, but 3 + 2 + 1 does not equal 10. You're one of those people who give an album an x.5 star in the verbal review and then round down aren't you? Tongue

(3*1)+(2*2)+(1*3)=10 is it clearer now? ITCoCK wasn't released in 1969 then in 1974 and last in 1977.

I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution

octopus-4

Special Collaborator

RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14418

Posted: September 22 2010 at 23:46

@Moshkito: I don't have anything against KC (see my review of Thrax if you have time). Looking at the sales, we have some albums in the top 10 that have never been best sellers. I was joking on this fact.

It's clear that this is a "fan" site and what is more liked by proggers is not what is best selling, or not always.

Fripp didn't buy Neverland but KC has contributed to create one virtual for us.

I used numbers and statistics to start a discussion. The outcome seems to be that numbers are rubbish. This is also a valid result. In math a conjecture can be right or wrong. What matters is the demonstration.

I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution

Dean

Special Collaborator

Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout

Joined: May 13 2007
Location: Europe
Status: Offline
Points: 37575

Posted: September 23 2010 at 02:07

octopus-4 wrote:

Slartibartfast wrote:

octopus-4 wrote:

The title is a joke, but the idea comes from a poll still open.

Let's look at the distribution of the top 10 albums in their years of release:

3 albums in 1972

2 in 1973 and 1975

1 in 1969, 1974 and 1977

Now let's extend the count to the top 20:

Can we try to explain this distribution ? Nothing scientific, just to discuss.

Someone probably already brought this up, but 3 + 2 + 1 does not equal 10. You're one of those people who give an album an x.5 star in the verbal review and then round down aren't you? Tongue

(3*1)+(2*2)+(1*3)=10 is it clearer now? ITCoCK wasn't released in 1969 then in 1974 and last in 1977.

Brian is our resident joker - he's messing with you

What?

octopus-4

Special Collaborator

RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14418

Posted: September 23 2010 at 03:05

Dean wrote:

octopus-4 wrote:

Slartibartfast wrote:

octopus-4 wrote:

The title is a joke, but the idea comes from a poll still open.

Let's look at the distribution of the top 10 albums in their years of release:

3 albums in 1972

2 in 1973 and 1975

1 in 1969, 1974 and 1977

Now let's extend the count to the top 20:

Can we try to explain this distribution ? Nothing scientific, just to discuss.

Someone probably already brought this up, but 3 + 2 + 1 does not equal 10. You're one of those people who give an album an x.5 star in the verbal review and then round down aren't you? Tongue

(3*1)+(2*2)+(1*3)=10 is it clearer now? ITCoCK wasn't released in 1969 then in 1974 and last in 1977.

Brian is our resident joker - he's messing with you

I'm not disappointed. It's that the statistics says that over the 80% of the replies are mess. And mixed into the jokes there's also something dramatic. I could have been disappointed of the second part of Slarti's reply if I'd recognized myself in that behaviour (but it would be my fault then).

I'm used to forums and I think I can recognize a joke. When I'm disappointed I don't write formulas. Smile

I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution

octopus-4

Special Collaborator

RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams

Joined: October 31 2006
Location: Italy
Status: Offline
Points: 14418

Posted: September 23 2010 at 03:07

But why the hell my beloved dinosaurs were close to the extintion in 1977 without any meteor impact?

I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution