Masterpieces distribution don't follow Gauss curve
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Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Top 10s and lists
Forum Description: List all your favourites here
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=71497
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Topic: Masterpieces distribution don't follow Gauss curve
Posted By: octopus-4
Subject: Masterpieces distribution don't follow Gauss curve
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 08:32
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The title is a joke, but the idea comes from a poll still open. Let's look at the distribution of the top 10 albums in their years of release: 3 albums in 1972 2 in 1973 and 1975 1 in 1969, 1974 and 1977 Now let's extend the count to the top 20: 5 in 1972 3 in 1973, 1974 and 1975 2 in 1971 1 in 1969, 1977 and surprise in 1981 (Rush) and 1992 (Anglagard) The top 50 is: 7 in 1973 6 in 1971, 1972, 1974, 1975 3 in 1976 and 1992 2 in 1977 and 1999 1 in 1969, 1970, 1978, 1980, 1981, 1983, 1985, 2001, 2004 and 2005 All the albums after 1985 are progressive-metal or similar. (Ayreon, Opeth, Pain of Salvation etc...) More than 60% of the albums in only 5 years. Can we try to explain this distribution ? Nothing scientific, just to discuss. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Replies:
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 08:35
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Cue Walter.
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 08:43
| There are lot of things in this world that are not normally distributed. |
Posted By: Manuel
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 08:52
| It seems that the 5 year period coincides with what many people call the "Classic Period" of progressive music. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 09:08
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The top rated albums are a popularity contest, not a quality contest. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 09:10
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Even more puzzling is the fact that the Beatles released 100% of their albums between 1963 and 1970! Surely we should expect the distribution to to trail out into the late fifties and mid seventies. How can we account for this anomaly?
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Posted By: SaltyJon
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 09:32
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Salty_Jon" rel="nofollow"> 
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Henry Plainview wrote:Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 09:35
This made me laugh really hard in the library and now I feel awkward. Although I don't think anybody noticed, they all seem to be watching anime.... ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 09:47
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Another cue, about reviewers, now: the top 10 albums have been rated/reviewed 7642 times from 11 to 20 just half: 3938 so the top 20 have 11580 ratings from 21 to 50 we have 9435 ratings so the total for the top 50 is 21015 So top 10 has an average (easy to compute) of 764 rates per album 11-20 is 393 rates top 20 is 579 21 to 50 is 314 top 50 is 420 If I'll have time and willing, I'll compute the numer of reviews per year. The comments about Beatles and the "Classic period" are fun, but I have a question: Agreed that it's a popularity contest, as the ratings are subjectives, is it only because of mental closure that there are only 3 albums of the 21st century in the top 50? Why are they all prog-metal and not belonging to other contemporary subgenres? Is there any relationship between the popularity of the top 50s and their sales ? I'm not writing a book and I'm not a sociologist. What I say is that we have a quite huge amount of unstructured information and it's possible that with a bit of analisys we can discover something interesting. We have all the answers, now let's work to find the questions.  ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 09:59
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Distribution by subgenres: Top 10 3 symphonic prog 3 Psychedelic/Space rock 3 Eclectic 1 Prog-folk Top 20 9 Symphonic 3 Psychedelic 3 Eclectic 2 RPI 1 Prog folk 1 Heavy 1 Jazz/Fusion Note: All the psychedelic/space are Pink Floyd and 2 eclectic of 3 are King Crimson Top 50 14 Symphonic 10 Eclectic 5 RPI 5 Prog-Metal 4 Psychedelic/Space 4 Heavy Prog 2 Prog Folk 2 Crossover 1 Tech/Extreme 1 Neo-Prog 1 Canterbury ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 10:00
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Missed 1 Jazz/fusion in the top 50.... ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 11:40
My last response was sarcastic, but I am a little puzzled by your question. YOu seem to be asking "why do all the most celebrated prog records come from the time when prog was the most popular?" which seems to answer itself to me. The lack of prog masterpieces in later years is due to: a) fewer bands trying to write prog b) a lack of exposure due to declining interest in the genre c) lack of sufficient time to pass for widespread recognition d) the nostalgia factor So there may have been some really great prog records in the last decade (indeed there have been. Sleepytime Gorilla Museum.) But they are never going to be recognized in the ay Yes and Genesis' best albums are. There's also something to be said for getting there first. Any symphonic prog these days is going to be compared the classics and is destined to feel at least partially derivative. Finally, prog as a genre is intrinsically tied to a specific time period. It's like asking why are all the best Film Noir movies from the 30's and 40's? Because the term "Film Noir" implies that period by definition, and even though there have been very fine attempts to mimic the genre since then, but these films will never be considered "the classics." In answer to your question about prog metal, I think that the reason those albums are highly rated is that right now, in the 21st Century, prog metal is really the only vibrant form of progressive rock doing new things (and this from a guy who doesn't really like prog-metal much.) What other genre today is expanding the frontiers of prog? Maybe post rock, but that is such a niche genre that it is unlikely to have widespread acclaim. -------------
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 12:22
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The point about "mental closure comes from the poll "If you had to get rid of..." It's somebody's idea but now I don't remember who. What I'm trying to do is just start a reflection for myself first. It's a fact that the golden period in prog was in the first half of the 70s, I'd like to understand if there's any reason other than the four that you correctly mention. What has caused the declining interest? I was there in that period, and my impression was that the majors decided to change the direction of the market and were supported by the media in this operation. I initially rejected everything was coming from the yuppies world, missing also the few good things that appeared in the 80s. I have missed the 90s because I didn't realized that the times were changed and I'm back to prog since when I joined this site. What happened in the real world in the meantime? Numbers and statistics are just a cue. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 12:33
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I don't agree that the powers that be consciously changed the direction of music in the seventies. First of all why would they? If they were making money with prog, why not keep selling prog? Second, there has been a repeating pattern in music history of increasingly complexity suddenly giving way to much simpler styles. When Renaissance counterpoint became too complex, it was replaced by the simply Baroque. When Bach took Baroque counterpoint as far as it could possibly go, the Classical Period arrived with its very simple melody/accompaniment pattern. Artists like to advance within a style, but there comes a point where the music is too complex for the general public to easily appreciate. I believe that this is whathappened with prog, and the Ramones were a breath of fresh air for people who just couldn't take another double album set about Eastern philosophy. -------------
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Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 12:58
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the top 10 albums have been rated/reviewed 7642 times
from 11 to 20 just half: 3938 so the top 20 have 11580 ratings
from 21 to 50 we have 9435 ratings so the total for the top 50 is 21015
this fits the statistical expectations I have.no surprises here ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 13:01
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The sum of many factors, likely. This is what I'd like to discuss about. I'm probably too left-winged, but I saw in this change of direction the successful attempt to reestablish a control over the artists that they have lost in the previous decade, and I don't mean the majors only. But that was my impression actually. It's more likely that the society was changing on its own and the change in music was only a natural consequence. Why did somebody invent Sex Pistols and punk? Why the media started giving a so big importance to a mediocre pop band like the Bee Gees? Why did they declare a war against the rock dinosaurs? I don't know the truth but I like to hear your thinking. I also don't know where this thread is going, but I like how it is going. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 13:03
Correct, but can you find a reason why it's so? ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 20:08
I have said all along that the topofthepops at Prog Archives is too much of a fan thing. I have made a suggestion to redo/restart the whole poll and this time you can not vote for more than one album from the same band ... why? ... because you're going to flood your list with the same person/artist and that tends to distort the view and the understanding and fairness of the poll. It is one of the reasons why I do not like the poll and finding the same band listed 3 times in the top ten ,... is very bad and tends to show that we do not listen to music at all ... just those bands ...
And then the worse part ... we compare everything to it!
The 90's is not all "metal" ... and Djam Karet is a very good example of it all and deserves a top ten rating ... but you're not going to get someone to listen to it if all they like is "metal" ... they won't "get it" ... and won't like it, even though Djam Karet is much more guitar heavy and designed than the over blown and too loud Dream Theater (these days) and so many other bands like them!
All in all, if you check those numbers again and check the duplicates, the actual numbers are even smaller ... and the issue then comes up ... it does not an artistic movement make!
I don't want to see "progressive" music die ... but for it to be more important we have to get off the road on the defining work in "progressive" to simply be 5 or 6 bands ... or we are going to kill it and the whole thing just go via the rest of the way anything else has gone ... the top ten way! And progressive will die because it has not sold that well during it's living time ... that is the history ... there were some exceptions, and YES, GENESIS and ELP and a couple of others, but they also fell apart and were no longer progressive and became just a song hit band for the radio! The music no longer progressive, or worse ... even interesting!
There is a lot more "progressive" music in other places the world over ... and the day we add those to the annals and history of it all, I think that we will finally make amends and help put "progressive" music in the history books ... but it's not gonna happen as long as all we are is "fans" ... and nothing else but fans! No one even remembers the Beatles's fans ... and all of us laugh at the girls fainting ... there's the fate of a lot of music ... for the wrong reasons! On top of it, you'r enot going to get that many of us to listen to anything but 3 albums! ... the last 3! Maybe 5 if we're nice!
It's a fake curve ... one of those that says .. "self-fulfilling prophecy" ... very new-agey I tell you ... you just need the crystals all around your ears so we know it's very cool and far out! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 20:17
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Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 20:38
Quoted for truth. 70's symphonic prog is simply the most popular progressive music out there. There's a lot of terrific 70's prog albums out there, but there's just as much great stuff since 1980 as well. It's a shame that modern prog doesn't get nearly as much hype as the stuff from the 70's... ------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 20 2010 at 21:03
J-Man ... we could start with your very own Avatar ... hehehe (couldn't help it!) ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: September 21 2010 at 12:29
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There's absolutely no reason why a Gauss curve should apply to the timeline of release year of the best prog albums.
If it did, that would mean that when checked from now, 2010, (and taking 1969 as the starting year of real prog) the best albums would cluster in the period around 1990, but when looked again in 2020 the best albums would have to be those around 1995, when obviously whatever happened between 2010 and 2020 can not have changed in any way the albums released around 1990 nor around 1995.
You should however find Gaussian curves in other features, for example the ratings. In principle you should expect to find most albums rated with 3 stars, a bit less albums with 2 or 4 stars (individually, when taken together 2+4 might outnumber the 3 stars) and even less in the 1 or 5 star regions.
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Posted By: WalterDigsTunes
Date Posted: September 21 2010 at 12:31
| Math fails and new music fails as well. Why are we even discussing this? |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 21 2010 at 12:40
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Let me quote myself: "The title is a joke, but the idea comes from a poll still open." I'm wishing to discuss about why the golden period lasted only 5 years. Why those specific years and if there's a reason behind what happened later. It's not Math. Counting up the characteristics of the top 50 is neither statistics. Also because it's an indicator of PA people tastes, not necessarily about the absolute quality of the most rated albums and artists. But there's no doubt that something started to happen in the second half of the 70s and we had to wait for the 90s to have something back even if different. The proper question may be: what happened and why ? and if you were nearby, how did you live that situation? What younger people thinks ? what they really know about that period ? Feel free to ask different questions and/or give any kind of answers. I started the post without having in mind where to go. I hope we'll go somewhere otherwise the post will die on its own. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 21 2010 at 12:40
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I wrote post twice but I was meaning Thread, sorry..... ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 21 2010 at 14:30
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When I tried to found relate between "Rating" and "Masterpiece",most of you attack to me and talked about "Subjective" things. Now you discuss about "Statical parameters"(objective!). You discover! in some statical datas "The Golden Years in Prog History" and ignore subjective side of "The Top Ten List". You looking for "Objective" reasons and discuss about that. First I want to know How PA create these lists?Who rate these albums? I remember one guy told me collabs rate value is higher than ordinary listener rate.Is it true? and if it true How much? Now back to topic. Octopus-4 show me interesting true about one important parameter of Masterpieces : TIME. Most of these albums released in 70's and after these 30/40 years they shine like brilliant. Just like "Wine" .Older wine is better than younger!! |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 21 2010 at 15:41
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What happened in 1977 ? Was prog killed by Punk and NewWave or people was just tired of pretentious 20 minutes suites? Did genres other than prog have the same destiny? When did the punk die? Wasn't about 1982? and the so-called new Wave? Is 5 years a sort of time limit ? "When a genre dies only the true art survives." Is it true or not? Did social changes in the western world influence this change? Are we still changing? Too many question marks. In my next reply I'll try to give some personal answers if possible. I'm on CET, so I won't be back before 10 to 12 hours since now. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Deleuze
Date Posted: September 21 2010 at 16:10
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Posted By: Gerinski
Date Posted: September 21 2010 at 16:22
There are probably no truths, just opinions, I'l give mine but note that I'm from '66 so I was only 11 by '77, although I was already into prog from my older brothers and family.
Although other PA members will argue this, I don't think the prog audience got tired of prog by itself. Nor do I think that proggers turned into punks by themselves. I think it was the result of mass manipulation by the music industry who realised that prog was not a very profitable style. This was just the same as has been happening in every life and industry sector, the factual powers manipulate our tastes, fashions, etc in order to make us consume more and more, and preferably the things with which they make most profit.
New Wave lasted longer than Punk. I don't think there's any precise limit but linked to the above, the life cycle of fashions gets shortened in order to increase consumption. New products must be launched continuosly to the market, the faster the better (and music is a business product as well).
The ultraliberalism of the western culture has no doubt influenced the course of things in music as in everything else.
I want to believe that the true art survives but it may be a very struggling survival, we see so many wonderful ancient art which has become relegated to little more than the world of scholars and fans, with classical music being a prime example. For sure it is surviving, but in which conditions...
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 21 2010 at 16:24
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Let's correct the sentence: "Only true art can survive but it doesn't happen always" ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 21 2010 at 16:27
The lists are calculated using weighted averages which takes into account the number of ratings and their relationship to the average number of ratings per album and the average rating of albums on this site. This is the same method that IMDB uses to create their top 250 films of all time. If you want to know more, look it up on Wikipedia.
We do not keep this a secret - http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?salbumtypes=1#list - you can read it on the chart page .
Anyone who wants to.
We do not keep this a secret - http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=47597 - you can read about it on the forum New Members page .
Yes.
We do not keep this a secret - http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?salbumtypes=1#list - you can read it on the chart page .
Collaborator has 2x the rating.
If anyone rates an album without writing a review it scores 1
If anyone rates an album and writes a review it scores 5
If a collaborator writes a review it scores double a nomal review
We do not keep this a secret - http://www.progarchives.com/top-prog-albums.asp?salbumtypes=1#list - you can read it on the chart page .
------------- What? |
Posted By: thellama73
Date Posted: September 21 2010 at 16:38
Your technique of masking a secret, fiendish conspiracy by hiding in plain sight has worked brilliantly, Dean. Chesterton would be proud. -------------
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 10:33
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Posted By: tuxon
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 10:45
partly because of the used algorhythm used for calculating the position on the charts, which favour a higher number of ratings.
personally I would drop the number of ratings if it exceeds the 200 ratings, after that the average rating should take over the importance over number of ratings. also I would drop the weighing of the rating sort (difference between review versus rating or even review by collab, or regular member difference is plain wrong and interferes with an accurate weighing system, which should be every rating counts as high as any other, its the number of ratings that ultimatly builds upo to a trustworthy average rating)
anyway. If I'm correct they use a weighted rating system, which should do the trick quite nicely ------------- I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 10:51
How would we do that?
We have 253 collaborators on the site out of a total membership of 29,810 - even with a weighting of x2 we cannot begin to compete against a population 100 times larger.
If you consider the top 5 albums have 750-1000 ratings each and the vast majority of those ratings are from non-collaborators, (for example Selling England By the Pound has 986 ratings but only 98 collaborator reviews), so any bias we could attempt to create is easily beaten by the non-collab ratings.
Also, we cannot all agree on what is Prog so there is no way I, or anyone else, can convince 252 singleminded collaborators to bias a single album - it simply will not work.
Good
 ------------- What? |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 10:55
PA is an open site on which everybody can register, even those who don't know anything of prog music. Leaving the admins and designed experts the possibility to decide who include or not and allowing them more weight on their ratings is a way, probably not the best, to avoid seeing Lady Gaga in the top 10. Of course it looks like the admin group contains more King Crimson and Van der Graaf fans than the average of the world population, but this is a fact. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: CCVP
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 10:57
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 10:58
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However, what I'd like to see is a discussion about the possible causes of some events or at least discover that no events happened. Discussing PA was not the target of this thread. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 11:01
So are you indirectly supporting the idea that punk was an invention of the media ? Did it gain popularity thanks to Top of the Pops ? If so, was it part of a majors' plan to kill the dinosaurs and sell low-cost music instead? ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 11:02
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The previous message is referred to CCVP's "Punk Explained" that for a strange reason disappeared from the quote ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 12:52
If anyone rates an album without writing a review it scores 1
If anyone rates an album and writes a review it scores 5
If a collaborator writes a review it scores double a nomal review
This is not about 2x. This is about 10x . For example SEBtP as you said has 986 ratings and as you said only! 98 collaborator reviewer rate this album.Now if they want to BIAS this album we reach to 980 rate!!!! and if 50 of collabs rate high we reach to 500 of 986 with 50 persons!! This mean " If " PA wants ( I never said PA wants) to bias, PA can and this is a answer to your question How would we do that. Please dont upset. As I said before I TRUST TO PA . I have a good job and I am a busy man. I must make money for my family. Writing in English is very hard for me and the only reason I am in PA is I love PA and I trust to PA 100%.
Octopus I'm sorry and I dont continue this discuss. Please forgive me again. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 13:13
What's the best way?
IMBD allows anyone to rate a movie, but only ratings by reviewers with a minimum of 250 reviews are used in making their charts - this is stricter and more restictive than what we use here. Other sites are even more selective and do not allow just anyone to review or rate an album.
Really? Only two Admins put KC in their top-10 Prog album lists and two (different) Admins picked VdGG.  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Formentera Lady
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 13:23
What is wrong with that?  |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 13:24
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I don't have tp forgive anybody. Untilo there's nothing offensive you have the right to express your opinions. This is what a forum is for. However I think you may give an interesting contribute to the discussion. My assumptions are currently taking into account only the western side of the world. My knowledge of Iranian music is limited to just few songs of Kourosh Yaghmaei. Can you tell us something about iranian prog and proggers? How sis they live the golden age? Did you have one? was it contemporary to the western? Tell us something about Middle East if you like. For me it's an almost unknown world. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 13:25
Nope, I don't agree with you.
A PA collaborator has to write a review to get 10x weighting. If a non-collaborator also writes a review they get 5x weighting - the difference is 2x.
If 98 collabs review and rate high then that is 98x10=980 - if the 888 non-collabs review and rate low then that is 888x5= 4,440 ... the non-collabs win.
If a collab rates without a review the weighting is 1 - exactly the same as a non-collab who rates without a review.
------------- What? |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 13:25
Nothing wrong, is just a fact. What's wrong is SEbTP on the top. (Just my opinion, of course). ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 13:26
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Nice picture. Is it Orion Nebula? ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 13:31
------------- What? |
Posted By: Logan
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 13:59
Otherwise known as the King Crimson Islands nebula. |
Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 14:31
Hi. I thought you angry because I start discuss that different to topic concept.Any sites defend theirself but I tell what I must to tell and I'm sure you undrestand me. I never break my promises and I can continue this discuss to the end. I am an engineer and I live with "Numbers". I work with mathematics and statics and I undrestand about odds.So. Many prog rock bands works in Iran but they work underground but outside Iran I can introduce you few Iranian Prog bands and artists:
Days between Stations (Eclectic)
Farzad Golpayegani (Prog Metal)
Azam Ali (Vocal of some bands like "quodia" and VAS,...)
and some artist I dont remeber their names in Archive,Haggard. And great Freddy mercury (Queen)
Some bands that work in Iran undercover but you can find them in internet like: Amertat,127 (now in US),Sarakhs,Darkub,Kaveh Yaghmaei(Kourosh's son in Canada),Babak Riyahipour(My dear friend and he released one album in Iran).Oham (Alternative)and .......
Iranian music fans(serious music) love Pink Floyd so much.We (Iranians) have good taste and respect to arts.Unfortunately we have anti-art goverment and they fight to west arts and ignore folk artists.The goverment help to their hand-make artists and make trouble for others.90% of Iranian people dont like this ideologic islamic goverment and try to find freedom BUT goverment have gun and they clash to us.Many sites filltered by goverment like Facebook,Youtube,tweeter even myspace and musical sites!!! You cant imagine what is atmospher in Iran.If you like to know more about Iran, You can find in Internet and I recommend you find what happend last year in Iran.Honestly I afraid to write more about politics and religion. I have 2 daughters and if they arrest me I dont know what happen to my family. Thanks.
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 14:45
 oops...------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 15:02
Sorry, this wasn't my question, of course. I was thinking to the 70s. Nobody on this site has ever meant to make interferences with the politics of any country. Let's keep politics and religion out of the discussion, specially when it's not safe. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: ferush
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 15:39
| Congratulations, well done; no doubt its a slanted curve jajajaja; Those times will return? they will after a music new revolution. |
Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 16:08
They have had the 250 reviews in there listed for some time. There are other advantages (I have reviewed more than that number of foreigh films ... more like 500, though not all of them are posted in there as yet) ... and these would be some access to sharing of the information. It was through the IMDB that I have been asked twice already to have my reviews quoted on 2 different Film Festivals already.
I'm ok with the number ... I do think that we could do similar with the reviews ... up to 50 let's say ... but we would have to set some guidelines, I think. KC's first is a good example ... go look at the reviews listed ... and you can see three or four really good reviews in there and a couple that ... do not exactly qualify as "reviews" at all ... simply to say .. I don't care for it ... is NOT a review! And in my book, should be removed, or placed in a posting instead of a review.
The other one, is ... even though this might mean more work for Dean and a couple of others, that the folks determined to be "reviewers" should have a separate and dedicated area, since we know that they are going to give it more time and effort for a review. That is not to say that everyone else can not have a say, but the "reviewers" earned that right by the sheer volume of their work and dedication.
I don't have any issues with anyone choosing whatever ... the only concern I have is that anyone voting, should NOT be able to vote for the same band a second time ... so the list would be a bit wider and stronger all around ... instead of considering "albums" progressive" ... we're going to raise the stakes ... the artist is going to be listed and discussed as "progressive" ... and that's that ... this would reduce 4 albums by Genesis to one mention and 4 albums by Bruhaha to one mention ... and in the end make room for a lot more artists that deserve the credit and mention that will NOT get it ... because there are 4 KC albums, 4 Yes albums, 4 Genesis albums, 4 ELP albums, 4 Rush albums, 4 VDGG/PH albums ... which means that 18 other bands are not going to get listed and they deserve the mention ... it's what we're here for ... not to just be FANS of those 6 bands.
In the end, we're going to look a lot more valid and important when it comes to the definition and discussion of the music ... we have to be more pro-active in the area of not just being a fan ... but elevating it all further ... and we can not elevate 6 bands and ignore the rest! The breaking of the "music business" has been about taking down the monsters to make room for everyone else ... and what do we do? ... go for the monsters again ... it just doesn't feel conceptually right or progressive to me!
And yes, I would not mind being a part of the reviewers group ... but I have not been asked, and I don't really like to impose myself ... specially when it comes to the arts! That's one thing I have learned as a writer ... to maintain your "independence" you have to be yourself ... and it's like a painting or another piece of music ... you like it or you don't. And some want to say hello and others want to troll! ------------- Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told! www.pedrosena.com |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 19:02
Someone probably already brought this up, but 3 + 2 + 1 does not equal 10. You're one of those people who give an album an x.5 star in the verbal review and then round down aren't you? ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 23:39
(3*1)+(2*2)+(1*3)=10 is it clearer now? ITCoCK wasn't released in 1969 then in 1974 and last in 1977. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 22 2010 at 23:46
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@Moshkito: I don't have anything against KC (see my review of Thrax if you have time). Looking at the sales, we have some albums in the top 10 that have never been best sellers. I was joking on this fact. It's clear that this is a "fan" site and what is more liked by proggers is not what is best selling, or not always. Fripp didn't buy Neverland but KC has contributed to create one virtual for us. I used numbers and statistics to start a discussion. The outcome seems to be that numbers are rubbish. This is also a valid result. In math a conjecture can be right or wrong. What matters is the demonstration. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 23 2010 at 02:07
Brian is our resident joker - he's messing with you  ------------- What? |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 23 2010 at 03:05
I'm not disappointed. It's that the statistics says that over the 80% of the replies are mess. And mixed into the jokes there's also something dramatic. I could have been disappointed of the second part of Slarti's reply if I'd recognized myself in that behaviour (but it would be my fault then). I'm used to forums and I think I can recognize a joke. When I'm disappointed I don't write formulas.  ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 23 2010 at 03:07
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But why the hell my beloved dinosaurs were close to the extintion in 1977 without any meteor impact? ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 23 2010 at 03:29
------------- What? |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 23 2010 at 03:52
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But why in 1977 and why so suddenly? Rock and Roll and the British Blues Revival didn't disappear in this way. A generation doesn't change in 1 year. My opinion is that this change was forced for commercial but also for political reasons. It hasn't been just a change in the customer's tastes. Syd Barret didn't blame Keith Richards for being a dynosaur. Jonny Rotten named the rock and pop bands dynosaurs while the punk was pretending to have its roots in the 50s Rock'n'Roll like it was a sort of revival itself. But punk was just a prelude to the 80s, a decade that has seen the biggest waste of hair gel and unfortunately of musical talent. In the end some original prog bands are still making music, some new bands have their roots in the 70s and very few people now remembers who John Lydon was. What has killed the original prog is the 80s new wave stuff (not only musical) IMO, but I still can't understand why. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Gandalfino
Date Posted: September 23 2010 at 04:38
I mean you´re often bored in your occupation, therefore you´re devising these useless topics.
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Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 23 2010 at 04:53
Can you see anything useful in the current topics? ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 23 2010 at 04:56
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Hmm guys, I opened the thread but I wasn't meaning to answer anybody's questions (for joke or not) about why I have opened it. A discussion is intended between all the participants, not between me and anybody else... Let's try to answer why question: we don't know what happened, but why in 1977? Why not in 1979, instead? Didi it start before to become evident later? ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Gandalfino
Date Posted: September 23 2010 at 05:04
| I hate maths. |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 23 2010 at 05:08
I hate Phil Collins  .That's an idea for a new general thread: One thing that you hate.. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Gandalfino
Date Posted: September 23 2010 at 05:10
| History is boring too. |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 23 2010 at 05:11
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What about French movies? ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Gandalfino
Date Posted: September 23 2010 at 05:24
No, no, it´s something different. I´ve ment that you found any relationship between Prog Rock, mathematic statistics and history. I like the music (not only Prog Rock), but I dislike when music becomes to science with various analysis, statistics, charts and so on. 
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Posted By: O666
Date Posted: September 23 2010 at 06:12
| Hi Gandalfino. I dont believe one prog fan think like you. Progressive music relate to math and history more than other shape of music that we listen today. Composers and music writers work with math. Rhythm and timing specially in prog music (7/4,9/4,7/8,6/8,5/4,...) make with mathematics rules.Sounding and sound engineering work with frequency and use math to make perfect sound. Keyboards and electric guitars and side equipments made by math and electronic rules. Most of prog moments root in history. Many of Lyrics based on historical moments. I dont know how you talked about "Boring" in Progressive music. When reviewers analysis albums or songs, They looking for these kind of elements to rate them. Progressive music is very serious and maybe boring for peoples who dont like serious music and want to enjoy only. I never want to say "I love prog because I am intellectual" NO. Each type of music suitable for different purposes.We have many intellectual guys in PA. Octopus found one intresting thing in prog history and I think this is strange.One genre of music fall apart unexpected in 1 year. In 80's one sub genre birth called "Neo-Prog". Many of prog specialists like moshkito dont like this genre and they have many reasons for their opinion, If we dont know what happened after 1977, its better we dont speak about that and use other opinions and follow this great discuss and if we have opinion about that then we MUST talk about our opinion freely. Forgive me if I upset you. Thanks |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 23 2010 at 15:27
I know it's a joke, but I'd like to suggest a couple of books to everybody is not aware of the relationship between mathematics and music: One is the famous "Godel, Escher, Bach" by Douglas Hofstadter. It's a masterpiece but not an easy reading. The other is "Addicted to Music" by Daniel J. Levitin, a former producer who worked for some famous mainstream pop stars but also for prog artists before getting a PhD and starting a new life as neuro-psychiatrist. He explains, for example, why children like "twinkle twinkle little star" and probably you don't. Each addicted to music should read it. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Formentera Lady
Date Posted: September 24 2010 at 08:27
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What was the question again? Why there was in the 70ies a peak of prog rock? I have also my thoughts about it, even if it sounds cliche: In the second half of the 60ies Beatles' visit to India, Monterey-Woodstock festivals, anti-war and human rights movements, student's protests, flower power and hippies movement created a so-called generation 68, which was open to cross borders in all areas of the society. Not surpisingly also in music. The late albums of the Beatles showed an urge to cross the borders between pop, rock, folk, jazz, blues, psychedelic and, especially in the UK, even towards classical music. The climax of this new musical direction was in the first half of the 70ies. Then the generation 68 grew older, founded families, had better jobs, they cut their hair, became more adjusted. The next generation reacted with punk and new wave, which became the downfall of the prog/art rock in the 80ies. (About the year 77: I think it was important that King Crimson was already on hiatus and Genesis lost two key members.) It may be, that for the music industry punk and new wave with their 'anti-politics' was easier to handle than the often politicized hippie movement. As a result followed the commercially successful 'new romanticism' with bands like Duran Duran, Culture Club et al. The 'old' bands of the 70ies tried to prevent their downfall with shorter hit singles (Follow you, follow me, Owner of a lonely heart), forming super groups (Asia, GTR), or finding an own niche with a more avantgarde-like approach (King Crimson). During that time only Marillion tried to hold up the flag of prog by following the footsteps of early Genesis. The 90ies (and after the downfall of new romanticism) brought a revival of the prog scene with prog festivals and new prog bands. Most of the bands, though, had a straighter, heavier approach and were more in the wake of Rush. These bands still produce good albums from time to time, but the 'hype' and the 'glory days' of the 70ies prog is over. The prog scene today is only one of many scenes and sub cultures of society and does not have further social significance. The reason may be, that since the early 90ies (and after the downfall of communism) we live in a more disintegrated society, in a kind of post-post-modernism, where values are more arbitrary, and it is harder to find common grounds. (Puh, my longest post so far, should not happen again...) |
Posted By: octopus-4
Date Posted: September 24 2010 at 09:22
I agree on almost everything. Is there anybody there who doesn't agree with this interpretation? Please post your opinions. If this is all the truth, we can move to some following questions that make sense only if this is the correct explanation. ------------- I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution |
Posted By: Gandalff
Date Posted: September 25 2010 at 06:23
 Wow, perfectly told! Is it from your brain only?------------- A Elbereth Gilthoniel silivren penna míriel o menel aglar elenath! Na-chaered palan-díriel o galadhremmin ennorath, Fanuilos, le linnathon nef aear, sí nef aearon! |
Posted By: Formentera Lady
Date Posted: September 25 2010 at 16:45
Actually I wanted to write a paper for my studies about Kalivodas further development of Mukařovskys aesthetic function, but as I could not find a beginning I wrote this instead...  But thank you! |