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lucas 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 06 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 8138 |
 Posted: January 25 2010 at 16:17 |
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Progheads may be interested in Alain Bashung, a vocalist who passed away last year. He released two albums that stand out in his discography : 'Chatterton' and 'L'imprudence'.
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18058 |
Posted: January 25 2010 at 19:46 |
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I don't think you are going to find one ... even the likes of Mona Lisa are almost a thank you to Ange ... not even close to Genesis ... and to be honest with you ... I'm glad.
Not wanting to take anything away from Genesis ... but what you got was a few folks that had an ear for music ... and specifically EUROPEAN music ... where there is a great history of "torch" songs and things like Kurt Weill and Jacques Brel ... things that made a lot of sense for the time and its place, but music history -- specially "rock music" ... tends to have a massive ego that does thinks they are the only ones that can do something original!
I've always said that Genesis pretty much copied Ange and other French bands and european music ... and they probably would have done more if Peter had not left ... which he kinda did on his own, and eventually adding foreign folks to a lot of his stuff, culminating in his "Passion" album ... which had fabulous music, but was more a reflection of the actual artists, than it was of Peter's himself ... his music was "pop music" ... not a completely different kind of music and expression that a lot of the folks he displayed were all about ... but for most those people seeing a chance to actually mix and play with someone that big ... was worth every second of their life!
Steve Hackett has accounted himself well and done some nice things ... but compare his first album to his latest ... and you can see a concern with a story and "play" ... compared to today ... not even close ... and it tells you that what was inspiring then ... was an idea ... that died and had no life within the people they were around ... and Peter is the same way ... or he got bored easily.
Anthony Phillips went on to experiment a lot ... and did some nice things, but that also suggests that Genesis had lost the ability to experiment and have fun doing different things other than "pop music" and "hit songs" ...
I remember the first time I heard Iokko Saeffer (can't even spell his name!) ... and his style of jazz is a total blow out that even New York'rs can't enjoy ... it's way out there and gone ... and if you followed the likes of Heldon, you could see another family of experimentation that went quite far ... and was way out there ... and other than the likes of Robert Fripp on his own (NOT with KC), the amount of experimentation in music in the UK is very small compared to the other schools out there ... it's bizarre, when you hear Fripp talk about Gurdjieff concepts ... and no one gets it ... even the Royal Shakespeare Company was playing around with these concepts and eventually Peter Brook went on to do a film about him ... and of course ... we don't have to discuss the unbelievable experimentations coming out of Germany ... courtesy of a couple of music schools that are some of the best in teh world ... but no one wants to accept that Geneis had a couple of really nice albums ... yes I love them ... but they are not the paragon, or pariah that we make them out to be, and Peter Gabriel will be the first to tell you so. Goodness ... one can even look at Fish (from the early Marillion days) ... and he IS an actor ... Peter was not an actor! ... and we say that Marillion copied Genesis ... and the reality ... probably is ... here's an actor that wanted a band BADLY ... and could not find one because everything had to sound like ... something else?
You either enjoy the music with its many cultural differences ... or you don't ... in general (and I mean general) ... Spain had a lot of Yes influences, France was (as usual) -- vive la difference, and their sense of "arts" is way more developed and appreciated in their history despite such a bloody past, and Italy is always way too influenced by Classical music, and Germany ... well ... they all like to think they can stomp Beyruth better and louder than Wagner ... and England? ... sorry ... way too much "pop music" ... and they do not credit their very own composers ... of which Mike Oldfield is one of the best! But everyone here probably would be scared and shocked ... if Keith told us there was nothing progressive on what he did ... I did this rock lick with this classic material -- so did so many italian bands!!! -- (guess where Keith learned it!) ... and you call it prog ... anything else to talk about?
I actually think that the English speaking world is either too commercial or way too "controlled" ... to the point where hearing/seeing new things is tough ... unless the time it happens is big on that ... and the late 60's and early 70's was huge on that ... but it came to a crushing halt by the time the corporate hand got back to it ... and that control is still there and now being called "internet" ... although I am not sure that it can have as good and open an art scene as that time in London did ... it was in film, theater, music and all the arts ... by far one of the best in the last 500 years ... but I doubt that any "prog" critic here will have any idea of what I am suggesting ... and most history is persisting in damning that time and place because of drugs, sex or whatever other excuse anyone can find ...
Europe is small ... compared to America ... if you will ... and the radio abilities in there are not like America where you flip the dial and hear the same beat ... there you flip the dial and you can hear different countries and musics ... and that has an influence on people ... and us, in the English speaking world have this thing about being superior and bigger than anyone else ... and no one could say that we are not more creative than them! It goes both ways ... and if you think that Russia and Poland and China is not influenced and affected by rock'n'roll ... you haven't seen/checked much around the world! Edited by moshkito - January 25 2010 at 20:08 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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CPicard
Forum Senior Member
Joined: October 03 2008 Location: Là, sui monti. Status: Offline Points: 10841 |
Posted: January 27 2010 at 11:57 |
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When did Genesis start to copy Ange and other French bands? By the way, which bands? According to history, Ange released its first LP in 1972, while Genesis released its own first LP in 1969 (even if this one is barely talked about). Back in 1969, Ange only started to perform live - moreover, live in the town of Besançon, closer to the Swiss frontier than the clubs of Paris. When Genesis released 'Trespass' in 1970, the French progressive scene was only about to rise: in this year, you could only mention the first LPs of Ame Son, Magma and Red Noise. A lot of bands stayed underground: Barricades, Camizole, Crium Delirium... never released any official material until the 90's or the 2000's, 20 or 30 years after they split! More bands just recorded one or two LPs (Komintern, Red Noise, Ame Son) and you can barely feel any acquaintance between their music and the music of Genesis. Not that Genesis was unique (I see them as the continuators of the 60's pop music), but most of the French bands were influenced by free jazz or the Canterbury movement. If you said that Peter Gabriel borrowed some concepts (theatrical appearances, masks, etc.) to German bands such Floh de Cologne, I would agree with you. But, since Ange was a rather underground band until the release of their 1st LP in 1972, I would beg to differ.
About Heldon: yes, "another family of experimentation", truly... Called 'kraut-rock', 'kosmiches musik', you know, the stuff made by Tangerine Dream, Ash Ra Tempel, early Kraftwerk, Can, etc. Let's say that Heldon and Lard Free were the French response to the German challenge. |
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moshkito
Forum Senior Member
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 18058 |
Posted: January 27 2010 at 19:38 |
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The suggestion was that what Genesis did ... WAS already in place ... bwith the stories and fantasies, and Europe has a massive fantasy history that DID NOT start with Genesis ... and perhaps you will want to check out the Grimm Brothers for starters ... so you can see where a lot of Walt Disney came from ... that did not define "Genesis" ...
The theatrical color and expanse of Genesis was taken almost directly from a lot of theater in the London area, specially the National Theater and Royal Shakespeare Company ... both companies which also have a massive history of also using musicians in their productions for various roles and effects. Costumes are not something that is not appreciated in the lively theater in that area ... unlike New York where the only thing you can enjoy is yet another revival of CATS or NEW YORK, NEW YORK ... and that was my whole point ...
Europe has a massive history of theatrical this and that ... and Genesis was not the first one to do it ... check out "Principal Edwards. Check out Incredible String Band. but it was the one that ... happened to make it big, and allows you and I and others to think that they were original! Check out the Incredible STring Band's DVD of "Be Glad the Song Has No End" ... and specially the interview with the director and the various notes from Mike and Robin. ... and then ... say that Genesis started all this? WOW!
And you might read up on the history of the lead singer from ANGE ... apparently he is the son of a circus performer and a lot of their music is "saltimbanque" and "clown" related ... and guess where those come from? .. the massive history of CIRCUS through out Europe alongside a lot of Gypsy lore.
As far as Genesis doing it, in my book it was a bit of a FAD (not a lot ... just a bit!) and a credit to the perception of the musicians involved who were EXTREMELLY aware of other cultures, their influence and the work around them ... which facilitated their own ability to define something they wanted to do ... and did ... beautifully!
And please ... compare Trespass to Caricatures ... and then let's talk "theatrical" ... where one simply added costumes ... the other didn't have to! ... I'm not sure that anyone might have noticed Genesis if it were not for the blow out and color pictures that Melody Maker was showing of so many of those concerts ... that's not to say they don't deserve it ... THEY DO ... and it is GREAT music in my book ... but to say that they were the first ones to discover the wheel, or to discover the egg, or the chicken ... is ludicrous ...
And this thread is not about who was the first ... I merely added some other information that is a little beyond rock music to the discussion ... but I'm not sure that it is possible given your replies ... no other arts are allowed and Genesis is GOD ... I suppose that I could say next what a good christian you are?
I tend to think that the arts in ALL of Europe ... are not as invisible as we think they are ... and someday, some folks here might even understand why Ange will credit Jacques Brel, and David Bowie even does Kurt Weill ... a disk that all rock maniacs think is the bunk of the world and the worst thing ever done! The theatrical-ness of the voice and the singing was already in place in Europe ... Peter picked up on it for 3 albums ... and then went rock'n'roll on us ... not theatrical at all! -- unless you think that a stage presentation in black with a little light bouncing around in their heart is ... theatrically costumed and so original that the world will die!
I happen to think that Heldon, Magma, Yokko ... and a lot of French music is a lot more original and exciting ... why? ... they have an attitude with it that helps create the stuff ... and sometimes London is wayyyyy tooo dependant on a lyric to make sense ... some people can just shut up and play the music ... but "prog" fans will get mad ,... that I don't pray and pay my spiritual compliments to Genesis or ELP ... sorry ... Amon Duul 2 and Can and Mike Oldfield and Vangelis, and Tangerine Dream and Klaus Schulze have that honor ... they never had to show off ... they just did it! So .. what me costume? Edited by moshkito - January 27 2010 at 19:59 |
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Cheesecakemouse
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 05 2006 Location: New Zealand Status: Offline Points: 1751 |
Posted: February 01 2010 at 20:28 |
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What about the Germans!!
Now there is a legacy that has affected popular music globally: techno, industrial rock, ambient |
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tszirmay
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: August 17 2006 Location: Canada Status: Offline Points: 6673 |
Posted: February 02 2010 at 01:00 |
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"Back to France" from Mike Oldfield comes now to mind!
Most prog lovers who speak French but are not "de France" really enjoy the incredible poetry and literary drama the Gauls are so famous for in other artistic spheres! French Prog is clever, ambitious, deeply melancholic , at times romantic and even erotic ! The language leads itself to passionate discourse and eloquent expression. Just like them RPI dudes !!!!!!!
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I never post anything anywhere without doing more than basic research, often in depth.
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Icarium
Forum Senior Member
VIP Member Joined: March 21 2008 Location: Tigerstaden Status: Offline Points: 34083 |
Posted: February 02 2010 at 04:13 |
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out of topic but it has to be said Phil Collins actual proffession is actualy acting, (he was first interested in acting and the dramatic arts and the drumming was he's second project, when he took over genesis in the beggining he acted as he was Peter Gabriel, some even said he was more like Peter Gabriel then Peter Gabriel himself
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Clijsters
Forum Newbie 
Joined: December 29 2009 Status: Offline Points: 10 |
Posted: February 02 2010 at 07:13 |
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Hear Moving Gelatine Plates, papangus, is wondrous.
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Anaon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2005 Location: Kobaïa Status: Offline Points: 849 |
Posted: February 04 2010 at 09:21 |
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Taï Phong first two albums are great, and in the English vein, in my opinion!
  The opening track, "When It's The Season" on the second album is really great I think  Edited by Anaon - February 04 2010 at 09:28 |
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lucas
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 06 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 8138 |
Posted: February 04 2010 at 09:29 |
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They are available at FNAC in Paris for 6 or 7 euros.
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Anaon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2005 Location: Kobaïa Status: Offline Points: 849 |
Posted: February 04 2010 at 09:33 |
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Thanks for the tip
I only own the second one so I'll probably buy the first one.
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lucas
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 06 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 8138 |
Posted: February 12 2010 at 06:14 |
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Also I would recommend the band Noir Désir, on their masterpiece 'des visages des figures' they recorded a 20 minute song with zornian saxophone solos and the album is somewhat "proggy" in the spirit.
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Kotro
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: August 16 2004 Location: Portugal Status: Offline Points: 2815 |
Posted: February 12 2010 at 06:41 |
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That album is absolutely brilliant, but I don't think "L'Europe" is the best moment in it. Still great, though.
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Bigger on the inside.
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Raff
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: July 29 2005 Location: None Status: Offline Points: 24429 |
Posted: February 12 2010 at 07:38 |
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I know it's got nothing to do with music, but wasn't the leader of that band the one who killed his girlfriend, Marie Trintignant? A very sad story indeed  - I remember when it happened. |
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harmonium.ro
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: August 18 2008 Location: Anna Calvi Status: Offline Points: 22989 |
Posted: February 12 2010 at 07:41 |
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There is DEFINITELY something about France (check my previous post
) |
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Anaon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 01 2005 Location: Kobaïa Status: Offline Points: 849 |
Posted: February 12 2010 at 09:09 |
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I would recommend Emilie Simon's last album called "The Big Machine" - Her music is becoming epic and there's definately a Kate Bush vibe in her voice and songs
http://www.myspace.com/emiliesimonmusic |
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progmatic
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 22 2009 Location: Ohio Status: Offline Points: 1785 |
Posted: February 12 2010 at 21:06 |
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I love music from all over the world (I live in the states, in Ohio, for a reference point), but I have noticed many of my favorite groups come from three countries -- France, Canada (Canadian-French) and Sweden. I think many French prog and French-Canadian prog groups play very passionate, emotional music. I love Harmonium. Maneige, Ange, Mona Lisa, Clearlight, etc., and my all-time favorite group is Pulsar. I know many people consider Halloween to be their masterpiece but I find Pollen and Strands of the Future to be every bit as compelling.
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PROGMATIC
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Something about France ?
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toroddfuglesteg wrote: