Who should have replaced Wakeman?

lostrom wrote: terramystic wrote: Moraz was the best thing after Wakeman left! Other listed here wouldn't fit well but I might be wrong. Vangelis was in a very good relation with Anderson. His music is often spacey but he can also be jazzy and avant. I wonder how a Yes album with him would sound... But why didn't Moraz stay??? They started with him on a next project, that much I know...but what happened then???? I've read it somewhere, but can't remember...hmmm, internal conflicts????

Official reason: the band thought that Patrick was psychologically a foreigner, being a Swiss musician and not really being to go with the English rock-flow. Chris Squire said: be honest, how many Swiss rockbands are there? Not too many. They didn't communicate well.

But: I thought I read once in an interview with Pat Moraz that he saw things differently, and that he was thrown out (just like Peter Banks and Tony Kaye), because Brian Lane, the manager, wanted Rick Wakeman back.

I don't know what the real reason is.

side note from Patrick Moraz, he is modest as he
probably had more to do with composition than
anyone at this time period of Yes. Ricks work is
mostly interpretation of Patrick's ideas, they had
never met at this time period.

We had written, together, quite a lot of the material
which ended up on "Going For The One", like
"Awaken", "Wondrous Stories" or even "Parallels"
which were as much part my composition as anyone
else in the band at that time. I also came up, during
the two previous years prior to the recording of
"Going For The One", with a lot of ideas and
contributions to the band and its sound. The fact that
I was not credited as a writer of the songs, does not
mean I did not compose for the group. As a member
of the band, I composed as much as I could, as
much as I was "allowed" to compose by the others.

From what you guys are saying, Moraz hung around long enough to make contributions for some of the songs on 'Going For The One', but how much did he actually 'write' for 'Relayer'. My understanding is that the bulk of the music had already been written before he came on board. In fact, I believe Yes were seriously considering to record it as a four piece?

Secondly, I'm not surprised Moraz has got the most votes as we only 'know' his keyboard contribution and we've obviously got use to hearing 'him' on the album. I'm sure we would be voting for the same player on the album no matter who it was, whether Jobson, Greenslade, Argent, Vangelis et al. All those mentioned are great players in their own right and would have made their own mark on the album, just like Moraz did.

Edited by Progger

BTW, I believe Jobson was a Yes member for a 1983 tour and he even appears in the Owner of a Lonely Heart video, but things didn't worked out as didn't worked with JethroTull.

Incredibly they returned to Tony Kaye, who IMO is under the level of Jobson.

Vangelis is OK to work with Jon Anderson and his  mystic and ethereal music, but not perfect for Yes, a more Rock oriented band

Iván

Edited by ivan_2068

I believe Patrick was the perfect choice. Relayer is one of the most complicated and excelling Albums of yes. I believe Patrick gave the band new blood, and pushed them to go beyond the usual.

If Patrick fit in, that is more complicated, and probably the reason of his short lived stay in the band, Wakeman will always be known as the Keyboarding of choice for Yes, and YES Knows this all too well, and knows that thats what most of their fans want as well. Even though Wakeman does not completely fit in the band as far as his lifestyle, he loves to party.

Would any other player have worked, and would they have lasted longer in the band...I don't believe so.

Keith Emerson has far to geat an ego to have been part of the thought process of YES, maybe would have won over Squire for a solo project.

Van Leer would have been interesting but Jon would not have let him Yodel and therefore he would leave immediately. Jon Lord to Hard Rock, and total Lack of Synth knowledge.. could have contributed to the writing.

I believe that Eddie Jobson would have done the best, if Patrick could not have made it.

PS Patrick did not last very long in the Moody Blues either, or Refugee...maybe he wasn't much of a team player?

 

I'm not a fan of the solo Moraz I've heard, but he contributed to what I find the best Yes album, and he's very much a part of it, so I don't see anyone else could do it better

Few points from me:

Moraz did a brilliant job on Relayer but from the many interviews I've read - and I have read many - it seems he just wasn't gelling in the same way when it came to Going for the One, where the band were heading off in a different direction. So the comments about "he should have stayed" are maybe misguided. There was never going to be a Relayer Mk 2. I've read Chris' comment about "Swiss musicians" and I don't think we can take that too seriously...though Moraz clearly didn't gel in the same way as Wakeman did.  I get the impression Rick had the strength of personality to stand up to the others when needed. Patrick, when asked by the band "are you a vegetarian", reportedly said "No, but I will become one if I have to".

I agree with the comment about Howe and Squire moving into the space left musically by the departure of Wakeman. But, Moraz did really add something to the album.

Wakeman has said he was asked to review Relayer and was pleased when he heard it because he couldn't have added anything, it wasn't his thing.

According to Emerson's autobiography, he had approached Chris Squire about forming a band before he put together ELP, but Squire didn't want to take on lead vocals.

The potential choice of Vangelis has always puzzled me, maybe it would have worked, but somehow I think it would have flopped. There just doesn't seem to be a match of styles there. Eddie Jobson on the other hand......

Just to pick up on comments about Moraz being "modest" about his contribution to Yes compositions etc. I think I've read his claims, maybe they are true but in all his interviews, modest is not a word I would apply to him. Maybe its the language.... but whereas Wakeman appeared to have a crisis of conscience about leaving the band, Moraz had no hesitation whatsoever in dumping Refugee when Yes came along. On the composing front Wakeman did contribute to "Heart of the Sunrise" and "South Side of the Sky" but went uncredited due to record company reasons.

Flying Teapot wrote:

Patrick did not last very long in the Moody Blues either, or Refugee...maybe he wasn't much of a team player?

You are right, but thre are a lot ofreasons for this:

With Yes:

1. He  had to replace Wakeman, not only a funny, charismatic and brilliant musician but also a second frontman but over all a close friend of the rest of the members.
2. Patrick Moraz is a shy guy, he doesn't wear capes or has charisma and of course he wasn't a friend of the rest Yes members, not even British!. I believe they had a problem because Patrick asked for a personal dressing room when all Yes mates used only one for all of them.
3. Wakeman does excellent job with Moog, Mellotron and all electric keyboards, Patrick is one of the most virtuoso piano players (I believe has the best technique in Prog), but not as strong as Rick with the electric part.
4. Yes management wanted Rick back at any cost and placed a lot of pressure in the members, they knew Wakeman's personality and extravaganzas gains more audience than clean and perfect Patrick's style.

With The Moody Blues:

1. He had to replace Mike Pinder, a founder and 20 years friend of the rest of the members, again the same problem than with Yes but in this case he was replacing almost brother of The Moodies.
2. Mike Pinder isn't as strong as Patrick, but he's a wizard with Mellotron (Distinctive sound of the Moodies), Patrick gave a second chance to an almost dead band, his influence in Long Distance Voyager is absolutely strong (great album BTW) but the Mellotron is not his strongest feature.

With Refugee:

1. The Refugees is The Nice without Emerson, what a bad luck, again Patrick had to replace not only a founder but also the heart and soul of The Nice.
2. Patrick's style is just the opposite of Emerson, even when if I had to choose I would go with Patrick without any single doubt, but the other two members had to change the style and sound they were using with Keith.
3. Refugee was a short living band, so why place all the blame on Moraz?
4. BTW: Refugee is IMO better than any Nice album, but the sound is completely different.

On other words, despite his shy character and some so called "Prima Donna" atitudes, Moraz had to face a great problem, he was always the new guy, the replacement of a long time friend with a totally different and unique style.

Just imagine, he had to replace Wakeman, Emerson and Pinder, the only one left to replace was Banks on Genesis!!!!!

It's obvious that nobody in his position can make old bones with any of this bands.

Iván

 

Good Points Ivan... Its hard to always play second fiddle, but he indeed left his mark on all three bands and on eacg occasion did a superior job. Would have been interesting to see hwat he would have done in Genesis?

 

Phil wrote:

Did a superb job, yes...not necessrily superior. And although he was very much second fiddle with yes and Moody Blues, I thought he was at least an equal partner in Refugee.

I agree, I can't say if Relayer is better than Close to the Edge, but I can't imagine each album with a different keyboardist. Relayer was great with Moraz and CTTE was incredible with Wakeman.

About Refugee, lets face it, they were The Nice without Emerson, they were used to play with Keith, he was the lead man of The Nice and people wouldn't go on those days to see The Nice without Emerson, so they changed the name of the band (As Gensis should have done after W&W).

Again Patrick was the new guy, no one was used to work with him, his styles were absolutely different. The couldn't kick him because it wasn't The NIce, but they just gave up, even when the album is outstanding.

Iván