Will pop music become prog?

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: The average Joe will normally never like Prog, but not his fault, the record industry manipulates the music, radios and magazines  so only what is profitable for them reaches the top, and Prog is not preciselty their best investmen.

interesting matter --  it must be equally Average Joe's fault if he will indeed prefer pop-oriented music.. not his fault if it's what he likes, just that it's reality so the record companies are trying to make as much money as possible (which is not to say all companies promote bad music, or bad pop music).  I would guess most record companies are gambling on what particular musics have markets (thank God prog has one albeit small) and those markets are people who know what they like as opposed to it being forced on them,  i.e. Bon Jovi has made some good pop rock and therefore a huge number of people liked it.

 

Atavachron wrote: interesting matter --  it must be equally Average Joe's fault if he will indeed prefer pop-oriented music.. not his fault if it's what he likes, just that it's reality so the record companies are trying to make as much money as possible (which is not to say all companies promote bad music, or bad pop music).  I would guess most record companies are gambling on what particular musics have markets (thank God prog has one albeit small) and those markets are people who know what they like as opposed to it being forced on them,  i.e. Bon Jovi has made some good pop rock and therefore a huge number of people liked it.

I have to agree that many things which are popular - not just music, are only popular because people are told that that is what is popular. Prog WAS extremely popular. Remember my earlier post: Dark Side of the Moon is the best-selling record of all time, and ELP used to be the highest-grossing touring act in the world. At that time, the record industry was able to profit from prog - it went hand-in-hand with the acid-dropping, pot-smoking, post-hippie culture in the 70's.

I can remember hearing Gates of Delirium being played WPLJ in NY back in the 80's - it wasn't unusual to hear prog epics on the most popular radio stations at the time.

If you need further proof - taste a slice of Domino's and then taste a slice of real pizza - if you tell everyone that Domino's is what pizza is supposed to taste like, they will believe you. If there was nothing on the radio but Magma and Zorn, they would be playing sold-out stadiums...



Edited by jplanet - December 08 2008 at 21:49

Atavachron wrote:   ^ but that just shows that record companies were basing decisions on what was popular, not what they thought should be popular but rather an acid-dropping, pot-smoking, post-hippie culture

Damn it, you're right again!

Maybe this is why prog bands can still get gigs in Europe and Canada, pot is decriminalized in those places!

Ok, here's the plan to bring back prog: We all have a moral obligation to encourage kids to do drugs.

No I fundamentally disagree --  firstly, kids don't always have the tools or vocabulary yet to articulate why they like something, if a kid says "it's cool" it may very well mean "I as an individual appreciate this",  not "It seems to be popular with the masses and MTV plays it frequently".  Second, let's apply the 50 Cent example but with a different artist usually included in the same market :  I happen to think Eminem is a genius, on the same level with Prince and Beck in terms of talent and innovation, so if a kid says he likes Eminem is he saying it because Eminem is popular and highly promoted, or because he genuinely likes the music ?   And are we prepared to suggest a kid is lying when he says he genuine likes it?  I for one am not.

So the question is, how did the "kids" of the 60's (of which I was one) being force-fed the same advertising, suddenly decide that prog was a good thing? 

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: Atavachron wrote: I don't know Ivan, I often feel that way about it too but then I wonder if most people actually do - to some small degree - think for themselves, at least when it comes to things like music or films..  certain information on things as politics, current events and history is shaped largely on what journalists or companies present, this is true, but even then a person does vote for who they prefer, drinks the soft drink they like and reads the newspapers they enjoy.  If they choose to pursue things further they may do that but if not, ultimately it's their decision and not what another individual or company says it should be.  People may have different tastes but surely it is their taste and not another's.   David, most of the music is bought by kids, the kids are the most influenced people. they are told that Pepsi is better and they drink Pepsi, they are told that 50 Cent will make them popular and they will listen 50 cent.   Ask an average kid why do you like rap...They will answer you because it's cool,   And why it's cool? Because DJ's, magazines, MTV, etc say so.   Once they grow, they will be used to that music and will be hard to change them, that's the moment in which they will be manipulated about `politics.   Iván

I agree to some extent, but not every that listens to rap likes it because 'it's cool' or whatever.
I'm on the Prog Metal Team, I listen to Liszt, Rachmaninoff, jazz fusion and I like some Avant Garde stuff too.

And I also like some hip-hop (not a lot, but maybe about 5 artists or so in the genre).
There, I said it, and it's the truth.

Okay, but before you need to say it, I know you'll say "but you're not the 'average kid", so that's out of the way now.

But I have also known people who used to listen to nothing but hip-hop, out of ignorance.

But then, one day he really enjoyed hearing me play guitar and wanted to take it up himself.

Did he just start playing guitar and emulating my style? No, he choose his own style.
Did he just start listening to music I liked because I liked it? No.
In the last 12 months, our music tastes are a fair bit different now. Sure, we have a few bands in common, like Dream Theater, Porcupine Tree, King Crimson etc that we like, but other than that he likes a lot of music I don't like and I listen to lots of stuff he doesn't like either.

The fact is, far less kids than you realize are as dumbed down and brain washed as you think.

Face, there was probably a time when at least a sizable chunk of today's PA members started out on pop music and what was readily available on commercial radio, 'music for the unthinking, music for the masses etc'.
And look where they are now.
Formulating their own individual tastes in music and discussing right here on PA.

I guarantee you, you ask for a show of hands and ask who here started out on heavily commercialized music, and there are gonna be people who stick their hand up.

Because I know, for me personally, there was in fact a time before I started playing an instrument and taking it seriously, there was a time before I started studying music theory, there was a time before I started to read about politics so I could make up my mind of where I sit on the political spectrum and there was a time before I knew about prog rock.

Some people are going to stay ignorant and not bother to learn, sure, but some people are just ignorant because they didn't know but yet they may always be willing to learn (as in the case of my friend who now enjoys prog rock alongside hip hop).



Edited by HughesJB4 - December 08 2008 at 22:38

pianomandust wrote: I appreciate the comments, but we have gotten a little bit off topic - let me ask clarify the question a bit.. Will pop music (Nickelback, B. Spears, etc.)((not popular music)) become a new sound to our ears because we are so used to listening to prog music (whether or not is was/is popular at some point).  I can listen to everything prog from Yes to Meshuggah, but at some point I will be used to the variety within prog.  If I were to turn the radio to a "poppy" station, that music would sound progressive to me because I haven't heard a v-c-v-c-b-c song in so long.  I don't really think it will ever truly happen, but it is an interesting thought to examine.

HughesJB4 wrote: I agree to some extent, but not every that listens to rap likes it because 'it's cool' or whatever. I'm on the Prog Metal Team, I listen to Liszt, Rachmaninoff, jazz fusion and I like some Avant Garde stuff too. And I also like some hip-hop (not a lot, but maybe about 5 artists or so in the genre). There, I said it, and it's the truth. Okay, but before you need to say it, I know you'll say "but you're not the 'average kid", so that's out of the way now. But I have also known people who used to listen to nothing but hip-hop, out of ignorance. But then, one day he really enjoyed hearing me play guitar and wanted to take it up himself. Did he just start playing guitar and emulating my style? No, he choose his own style. Did he just start listening to music I liked because I liked it? No. In the last 12 months, our music tastes are a fair bit different now. Sure, we have a few bands in common, like Dream Theater, Porcupine Tree, King Crimson etc that we like, but other than that he likes a lot of music I don't like and I listen to lots of stuff he doesn't like either. The fact is, far less kids than you realize are as dumbed down and brain washed as you think. Face, there was probably a time when at least a sizable chunk of today's PA members started out on pop music and what was readily available on commercial radio, 'music for the unthinking, music for the masses etc'. And look where they are now. Formulating their own individual tastes in music and discussing right here on PA. I guarantee you, you ask for a show of hands and ask who here started out on heavily commercialized music, and there are gonna be people who stick their hand up. Because I know, for me personally, there was in fact a time before I started playing an instrument and taking it seriously, there was a time before I started studying music theory, there was a time before I started to read about politics so I could make up my mind of where I sit on the political spectrum and there was a time before I knew about prog rock. Some people are going to stay ignorant and not bother to learn, sure, but some people are just ignorant because they didn't know but yet they may always be willing to learn (as in the case of my friend who now enjoys prog rock alongside hip hop).

I think everybody here would have started out with commercialized music unless their parents or some other influential people in their childhood introduced them to more sophisticated music.   The problem is very few develop the curiosity to explore beyond what the TV channels and the radio tell them is good. How do they tell them? By playing only the songs of the artists they want to promote, I presume.   I have experienced this because Western music is not widely listened to in my country, so I had to make an active effort to step outside my comfort zone and expose myself to different approaches to music.  Why did I do it? Because I sensed that much as I liked what I was listening to, I had become too astute to not spot similarities across the board in the approach of different composers and wanted to move on.  I placed trust in my best friend's judgment in this matter and got a start - well, LZ, Pink Floyd and a few more of the legends - after that, I was on my own.  But most people will not easily make this first step, they are much too defensive about their music tastes to take kindly to different opinions or recommendations.  It's funny because these are the sort of people who will claim they like all sorts of music and have an open mind and don't believe in genres et all and then it comes out..all sorts except rock, metal noise, blah blah blah, the list goes on.   One also has to remember that music is not usually so important for them as it is for most of us on this forum.  Even those of us here like me who are not professional musicians will concede they spend a lot of time listening to and thinking about music. The industry, in my opinion, is also using elevator music as a powerful tool to keep the tastes of the general public even more under their control - creating music that sounds beautiful and inoffensive but has no drama or emotion is the easiest way to ensure nobody will dislike it. Someday when I have the time and inclination, I will deal with that in a long essay...but here, it will be off topic.

Henry Plainview wrote: Wow, Ivan, you are even more elitist than I am. And that's hard.   This is not a matter of elitism, it's my view of what happens.   Way back when I was 13, before I became addicted to ear scratching, my favorite band in the whole world was Linkin Park (followed by Evanescence and System of a Down). I loved everything about them, and I listened to them so much that for quite a long time I could hum the rest of the song and say a good chunk of the words for any of their songs from their first two albums (which, I know, given the repetitiveness of their music, isn't saying all that much, but even still).   Me too, I even bought The Best of Bread album, but that's not the point, you make it clear in the next parragraph.   I was introduced to them because that is the type of music my friends, yes, and I wasn't aware of other types of music at the time,   What were the chances for your friend and you to get familiar with Prog?   Weren't you following your friends?   Why weren't you aware of other types of music?    Perobably because radios and MTV ignored other types of music.   Isn't that manipulation?   But are you really going to sit here and say that I listened to Hybrid Theory 150 times because the radio told me to?     Yes, because that's the only music your friends and you had access to, you can only like something with what you are familiar, and the radios plus music industry made sure that your friends and you got familiar with this bands more likely than with a prog band.   People listen to pop music because they don't care about music like we do and/or they are ignorant of other types of music   We didn't cared about music all our lives, at least i didn't, I also listened The Best of Bread because that was popular music when i was a kid, for a lot of kids being popular is the most inportant thing in life, they will do what their friends do and listen what they friends listen.   But again the main question is...Why do people ignore other types of music?    and/or their intrinsic taste is suited towards that sort of thing (which is unfortunate, but the truth, and we can't change that).   My taste wasn't suited towards Bread, it's so evident that as soon as i got familiar with Prog I liked it, but I believed I liked Bread and The Carpenters for years, because all my friends listened them and thought they were the best musicians in the world..   It's also truth that i started listening Prog to impress a girl who liked it.   This sheeple nonsense doesn't do anybody any good, and, frankly, makes us the jerk-offs non-prog people think we are.   You are making my point, if you, a mature person, with a defined taste worry about non Prog people thinking we are jerk-offs...What do you expect of a 14 years kid who knows 40 kids in his class that listen 50 cents and will not accept him as easily if he listens other thing?   Honestly, I give a damn about what people believe of us, I am who I am and like what i like,  if somebody has a problem with this, it's his problem, not mine.   Iván

Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - December 08 2008 at 23:59