Will pop music become prog?
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Printed Date: March 02 2025 at 13:18
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Topic: Will pop music become prog?
Posted By: pianomandust
Subject: Will pop music become prog?
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 13:17
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I was thinking to myself today that I really enjoy a lot of styles of music. Jazz, classical, various forms of prog, etc. I find something to enjoy in just about every sub-genre of prog (recognized by P.A.). That is also what worries me - I hope that in my seemingly never-ending search for new styles and forms of music, pop music (what I don't really listen to at all) will become prog to me at some point. It's inevitable, right? It will sound the freshest to my ears because everything else I listen to doesn't sound like pop music. Scary thought, and semi-sarcastic, but crap....that would be awful. ------------- and then there was music... |
Replies:
Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 13:49
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No.
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 14:06
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Sometimes people see solid walls between the various genres when in fact they are often permeable. Pop music as you may or may not know it today can be rather stagnant without picking up influences from other places. And pop elements do creep into prog and prog artists try and go pop too often to our chagrin.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: The Pessimist
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 15:10
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Pop music is POPULAR music. One of the main indirect attributesof prog is that it isn't what people would call popular. So I doubt it somehow, by definition. ------------- "Market value is irrelevant to intrinsic value." Arnold Schoenberg |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 15:21
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Pop music - prog? God forbid that should ever happen! Unless there were a mainstream change and suddenly prog became the rage. Never gonna happen as the teenybopper crowd that Simon Cowell exploits so happily will never take to anything other than "I kissed a girl and I liked it" kind of Twak. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 15:25
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How quickly some forget, or are too young to remember - Back in the 70's when ELP was the top-grossing concert act in the world, and Yes was selling out several consecutive nights at Madison Square Garden, and Dark Side of the Moon was earning the sales that made it the best-selling album of all time, prog rock was certainly one of the most successful genres of pop music. Now that the internet will ring the death knell of all major record labels and radio stations, my guess is that prog, along with dozens of other genres that are overlooked by the corporate music business, will end up on an equal playing field together. Sadly, it will probably never be as big as it was in the 70's when prog was king. But, i digress. The original post wasn't about whether prog would become popular, but rather if pop music would sound so unfamiliar that it would seem like something truly innovative. Once prog starts sounding too familiar to you, you will probably do what Peter Gabriel did, and start listening to world music... ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Philéas
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 15:27
| Slartibartfast hit the nail on the head. |
Posted By: harrold the barrel
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 15:37
Either that or step further back into the formation of prog with the styles of jazz,blues,classical or anything for that matter. |
jplanet wrote:
Posted By: Avantgardehead
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 15:37
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Hopefully, yes.
------------- http://www.last.fm/user/Avantgardian |
Posted By: fuxi
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 16:05
| I don't know if pop will become prog, but prog bands have often tried to become pop, even WHILE WHILE REMAINING PROG, and in many cases they've succeeded beautifully. Just think of "I know what I like", "Wonderous Stories", "Lucky Man" etc.: poppy gems from great bands in their proggy heyday! And don't even get me started on Porcupine Tree or them Flour Kingz. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 16:53
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Does this thread mark the expansion of our elitism to new and interesting heights? What if I listen to so much good music that my ears break and I don't even realize it? How will I know how to look down on? This is serious, people. In five years you could be listening to Nickelback! ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 17:13
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I think prog and pop have a lot more similarities than quite a few other genres paired with prog. After all, there are plenty of rather Yes and Genesis songs that had plenty of catchy sing-along type melodies, but were also definetely progressive. I dare you say a song like Roundabout isn't catchy or progressive in the least.
And The Beatles were for sure pop, but were completely inventive too, they certainly pushed the boundaries of what could be called pop music then, and there's quite a few people who think of them as prog (I'm not saying I do though). ------------- 
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Posted By: cobb2
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 17:38
| Some releases of prog music have also been popular music- How many copies of dark side of the moon have been sold? If this isn't popular music.... It's up there with the Eagles and Michael Jackson. Yes were also the golden boys of the music rags such as rolling stone for a time- this is pre the term progressive music. I suppose Dream Theater could also be termed a popular band. Has anybody seen the amount of people who turned up for the Genesis When in Rome DVD- that's a fairly good indication of a popular band. As a off-side I do remember pointing out to some year 12 students back when Metallica were in their prime that because they were charting all the time on the pop charts that they were, by definition, a pop band- now that didn't go over well. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 17:53
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Yes it will. It's called New Prog.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_prog - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_prog
------------- What? |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 17:58
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^ I hate that |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:04
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Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:19
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Wow, in a thread having nothing to do with Neo- or New- Prog, it only took about 8 posts before those subgenre's were insulted twice! Nice work, guys! Keep it up and you'll continue to alienate huge portions of this forum's members! Merry Christmas! Q: How many PA members does it take to screw in a light bulb? A: Three. One to screw in the light bulb, and two to say that Neo Prog sucks! ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:22
hahhahhaha ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:23
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John, New Prog isn't Neo Prog - they are two different things. New Prog are alt/indie bands with Prog influences, such as The Doves, The Mew, Coldplay and Elbow ------------- What? |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:30
With apologies to you, I say (with apologies to the late Gilda Radner): nevermind! Yeah, New Prog is awful. I say it's open season, insult away! But I'm saving my lightbulb joke for the next thread insulting Neo. That's a good one. I won't have to wait long! ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: cobb2
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:31
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Jplanet- There are no insults going on here. I thought that's what discussion forums were for- to discuss. Ivan- pop is a shortening of popular- music that the masses like, purchase and relish. So discuss on and Merry Christmas to all.
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Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:33
Acknowledgment posted simultaneously as your post...Not only will I not defend New Prog, but I will defend its detractors here to the utter end! ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:37
^ There's good and bad in all things - if Radiohead, Mansun or Muse are labelled New Prog (which in some quarters they are) then "All Hail New Prog!" I say  ------------- What? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:42
Since the end of the early 60's POP is considered a specific genre, with an own structure....Or do you believe that if a jazz album swells 20'000,000 copies will cease to be Jazz to become POP?
Or if 10'000,000 persons bought Seven (The clñassical album of Tony Banks) it would become instantly POP?
In the same way if The Lamb would had sold 50'000,000 copies it would never had became POP, because it has a tortally different structure and influences.
POP may have been born as a short term for popular, but since three or four decades, the term has a completely different meaning that covers the conservative evolution of Rock.
If you don't believe Wikipedia or The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians from where the POP definition was taken, you will probably believe a prog artist:
He clearly bases his definition of Progressive Rock in it's differences with POP, so it's obvious for almost anybody.
Merry Christmas also.
 Iván
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Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:43
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I was wondering if Radiohead and Muse would count -- I suppose they are, given the definition... ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: topofsm
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:46
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Well, by defenition Country, Metal, Hip-Hop, Alternative, R&B, Prog, Blues, and Reggae are all pop music. Then there's classical and traditional music... -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:46
amen ...beats the hell out of the regressive sh*t any day... been there ...heard that.. done better.. by better groups. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: cobb2
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:50
No Ivan- it would not become pop it would be popular. Anyway, I am just stirring the pot here. I agree entirely that pop is based on certain compositional rules. Rules that I find uneventful and boring- how many times can you listen to a I IV V progression. But there are loads of examples where prog has been popular- that is all.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 18:57
and when you have pop songs...err... the worst dirges of pop music to some... LOVE songs done in "5/4, then 4/4, to 7/8 and ending in 5/8 you have .. prog pop heaven.  ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: valravennz
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:01
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Pop = New Prog? Maybe if relating it to such groups as Radiohead and Muse for example. But can we really include such genres as Rap/Hip Hop, R n B, Country and Reggae and straight out Pop eg: "I Kissed A Girl...", "I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus" etc. I am prepared to consider the merits of Alternative and Roots but the other genres - Heck no! What is progressive about them??? ------------- 
"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence" - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:02
 In the same way Prog would become Popular and not POP
I agree, but MOST POP is even less interesting than the classic I-IV-V Progression of Rock & Roll, because they isnsit in the boring formula of a catchy chorus and predicatble verse..
Of course, if you seen Yes at QPR, is amazing the number of fans they had in 1974 or Kansas and of course Pink Floyd, they were Popular denying it would be silly, but they appeared partly as a reaction to POP, this musicians wanted to do something transcendental, that most POP artists don't care about.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:04
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if the question is "will Prog become popular?", sure there's always a chance that prog rock could see some big chart success as it did in the early 70s (Passion Play #1 on US charts).. but if the question is will Pop become Prog, then no, I don't see that happening ..pop is what it is in all its occasional glory, and will retain its traits of brevity, digestibility, and melodic appeal |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:05
rock... R n B... country.... just what IS the difference really... preference perhaps?... does it have to ROCK to be prog. This site has answered that definitively...answered it in the negative. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Proggg
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:24
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Pop music becoming prog = Wishful thinking/utter delusion
------------- A windstorm dropped a bird from the sky It fell to the ground and it's wings broke and died But when the time got by, back to sky it flied cause the wings healed in time and the bird was I-Wintersun |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:26
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Maybe I'm crazy, but didn't pop music (i.e., rock) become prog once already? No reason it couldn't happen again. |
Posted By: cobb2
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:34
Very well put... Sums up the argument nicely. Ivan- I've got Yes at QPR. And this is after Tales where they fell from grace with the music rags.. and still popular. In my opinion it could have been their greatest historical recording- except for the extremely bad mixing. Back on topic. That quote of Emersons you put up sums up why prog will never be popular- who in the world wants to invest time and energy trying to understand something that makes absolutely no sense! And that is your average "Turn on the radio while I do the housework, dear" listener.
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:44
Excellent tape, Patrick Moraz is amazing, butt really, the mixing is terrible.
Agree with you except for one thing,Prog makes sense, the problem is people want their music alredy chewed so they don't have to put any effort of concentration.
The average Joe will normally never like Prog, but not his fault, the record industry manipulates the music, radios and magazines so only what is profitable for them reaches the top, and Prog is not preciselty their best investmen.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: valravennz
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:45
Micky - No - it does not have to ROCK to be prog. Perhaps I am being too simplistic in my understanding of what should not be regarded as prog music. I always understood Prog music to contain some elements of complexity such as "odd" time signatures that is not seen in the usual Pop composition. I don't want to get too far out of my depth here, but I think most of what is regarded as Pop music is too simple a music form to be regarded as prog music as I understand it.  -------------
"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence" - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:50
We might want to drop the "rock" from "your ultimate prog rock resource" in the masthead. I'd prefer it to read "your ultimate progressive music resource". Then we could put that one to bed. I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have to let all of the riff-raff into the room. But I applaud the site for not being too narrow of mind. I've seen a lot of controversial additions since I've joined and I remain in favor of a bigger tent when it comes to what is included. Still there will be endless battles here regarding where the line is drawn.------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 19:56
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The musical traits that describe Prog are not unique to the genre, nor are they cast in stone. Prog frequently "borrows" from other genres and in return other genres employ some of the developments in musical styles that Prog pioneered.
on the plus side -
Pop evolves - it always has done - not every band, but a fair number have progressed and a few have even crossed-over into Prog - (this is a "good thing") - but even those bands and artists who don't make the complete transition make worthwhile music that improves what "Pop"
on the negative side -
Pop for one has proven time and time again that it can adopt and adapt anything - take the current trend of Pop Classical like Vanessa Mae, Bond and Il Divo - it's a hideous idea with horrendous results - yet still they sell like hot cakes - once that's fallen out of vogue they'll turn their attention to another genre to plunder ... now imagine Nous Sommes du Soleil trimmed to a nice radio friendly, accessible 3 minutes and given a good solid repetitive 4/4 beat - bet you're glad Simon Cowell isn't a Prog fan now... ------------- What? |
Posted By: valravennz
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 20:05
Absolutely I think it would be too easy to get bogged down on this topic . Oh - and I agree with you - this site has certainly opened its doors to some interesting inclusions but I am on the whole, happy to see them here and applaud PA's willingness to be open-minded. Cheers!-------------
"Music is the Wine that fills the cup of Silence" - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 20:09
interesting matter -- it must be equally Average Joe's fault if he will indeed prefer pop-oriented music.. not his fault if it's what he likes, just that it's reality so the record companies are trying to make as much money as possible (which is not to say all companies promote bad music, or bad pop music). I would guess most record companies are gambling on what particular musics have markets (thank God prog has one albeit small) and those markets are people who know what they like as opposed to it being forced on them, i.e. Bon Jovi has made some good pop rock and therefore a huge number of people liked it. |
Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 20:40
I'd imagine some people would not be happy at letting free jazz in.
But we already have John Zorn and Miles, so I think it's only a matter of time. ;-) ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 20:53
Lets be honest David....Most people don't know what they like, they listen what is played in the radios, what the magazines says is best or what is cool. I don't say they are forced, but they are guided, multiple artists like boys or girls bands are only products, they can't sing unless helped by technology (most of them of course), they don't play a damn instrument, hardly they write their music....They only have to look cool and attract kids who will buy records with dad's credit card. Prog is normally ignored, and when not ignored, attacked, because the industry doesn't want a band that will take one, two or three years to reach a gold record, they want platinum on the first three months, because that's where the money is for the executives. Yes, the average Joe doesn't want to research for good music, he wants to listen what somebody else with some "authority" tells them is good, and of course very few DJ's will tell them Prog is good. We leave in an easy society, people want to be told the movies they must see, the food they must eat, the places they must go and of course the music they must listen. and very few will tell people to listen Prog. Iván -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 21:06
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I don't know Ivan, I often feel that way about it too but then I wonder if most people actually do - to some small degree - think for themselves, at least when it comes to things like music or films.. certain information on things as politics, current events and history is shaped largely on what journalists or companies present, this is true, but even then a person does vote for who they prefer, drinks the soft drink they like and reads the newspapers they enjoy. If they choose to pursue things further they may do that but if not, ultimately it's their decision and not what another individual or company says it should be. People may have different tastes but surely it is their taste and not another's. |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 21:48
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I have to agree that many things which are popular - not just music, are only popular because people are told that that is what is popular. Prog WAS extremely popular. Remember my earlier post: Dark Side of the Moon is the best-selling record of all time, and ELP used to be the highest-grossing touring act in the world. At that time, the record industry was able to profit from prog - it went hand-in-hand with the acid-dropping, pot-smoking, post-hippie culture in the 70's. I can remember hearing Gates of Delirium being played WPLJ in NY back in the 80's - it wasn't unusual to hear prog epics on the most popular radio stations at the time. If you need further proof - taste a slice of Domino's and then taste a slice of real pizza - if you tell everyone that Domino's is what pizza is supposed to taste like, they will believe you. If there was nothing on the radio but Magma and Zorn, they would be playing sold-out stadiums... ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 21:52
| ^ but that just shows that record companies were basing decisions on what was popular, not what they thought should be popular but rather an acid-dropping, pot-smoking, post-hippie culture |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 21:56
Damn it, you're right again! Maybe this is why prog bands can still get gigs in Europe and Canada, pot is decriminalized in those places! Ok, here's the plan to bring back prog: We all have a moral obligation to encourage kids to do drugs.  ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 22:12
David, most of the music is bought by kids, the kids are the most influenced people. they are told that Pepsi is better and they drink Pepsi, they are told that 50 Cent will make them popular and they will listen 50 cent.
Ask an average kid why do you like rap...They will answer you because it's cool,
And why it's cool? Because DJ's, magazines, MTV, etc say so.
Once they grow, they will be used to that music and will be hard to change them, that's the moment in which they will be manipulated about `politics.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 22:24
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No I fundamentally disagree -- firstly, kids don't always have the tools or vocabulary yet to articulate why they like something, if a kid says "it's cool" it may very well mean "I as an individual appreciate this", not "It seems to be popular with the masses and MTV plays it frequently". Second, let's apply the 50 Cent example but with a different artist usually included in the same market : I happen to think Eminem is a genius, on the same level with Prince and Beck in terms of talent and innovation, so if a kid says he likes Eminem is he saying it because Eminem is popular and highly promoted, or because he genuinely likes the music ? And are we prepared to suggest a kid is lying when he says he genuine likes it? I for one am not. |
Posted By: pianomandust
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 22:28
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I appreciate the comments, but we have gotten a little bit off topic - let me ask clarify the question a bit.. Will pop music (Nickelback, B. Spears, etc.)((not popular music)) become a new sound to our ears because we are so used to listening to prog music (whether or not is was/is popular at some point). I can listen to everything prog from Yes to Meshuggah, but at some point I will be used to the variety within prog. If I were to turn the radio to a "poppy" station, that music would sound progressive to me because I haven't heard a v-c-v-c-b-c song in so long. I don't really think it will ever truly happen, but it is an interesting thought to examine. ------------- and then there was music... |
Posted By: jammun
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 22:30
| So the question is, how did the "kids" of the 60's (of which I was one) being force-fed the same advertising, suddenly decide that prog was a good thing? |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 22:33
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If we talk about teenagers, who are the main demographic for pop music, there is a case for peer pressure circumstances. I recall hanging out drinking with a bunch of friends in someone's basement when I was in high school. We were the "metalheads" group. Someone said, in a drunken stupor, "Metal is the only good music, man!". I was equally schnockered, and replied, "actually, metal kind of f**n sucks". Everybody burst out laughing, and one guy said, "you know, actually, when I think about it, I really don't like metal that much". The another person chimed in "everybody thinks Ozzy is cool, but he really can't sing for sh*t!". And so it went around the room. We figured out that people in the "metalhead" group probably only liked a little bit more metal music than any other kids in school, and probably because we had a social outlet built around the whole idea, and just had access to more of it. ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 22:37
I agree to some extent, but not every that listens to rap likes it because 'it's cool' or whatever. I'm on the Prog Metal Team, I listen to Liszt, Rachmaninoff, jazz fusion and I like some Avant Garde stuff too. And I also like some hip-hop (not a lot, but maybe about 5 artists or so in the genre). There, I said it, and it's the truth. Okay, but before you need to say it, I know you'll say "but you're not the 'average kid", so that's out of the way now. But I have also known people who used to listen to nothing but hip-hop, out of ignorance. But then, one day he really enjoyed hearing me play guitar and wanted to take it up himself. Did he just start playing guitar and emulating my style? No, he choose his own style. Did he just start listening to music I liked because I liked it? No. In the last 12 months, our music tastes are a fair bit different now. Sure, we have a few bands in common, like Dream Theater, Porcupine Tree, King Crimson etc that we like, but other than that he likes a lot of music I don't like and I listen to lots of stuff he doesn't like either. The fact is, far less kids than you realize are as dumbed down and brain washed as you think. Face, there was probably a time when at least a sizable chunk of today's PA members started out on pop music and what was readily available on commercial radio, 'music for the unthinking, music for the masses etc'. And look where they are now. Formulating their own individual tastes in music and discussing right here on PA. I guarantee you, you ask for a show of hands and ask who here started out on heavily commercialized music, and there are gonna be people who stick their hand up. Because I know, for me personally, there was in fact a time before I started playing an instrument and taking it seriously, there was a time before I started studying music theory, there was a time before I started to read about politics so I could make up my mind of where I sit on the political spectrum and there was a time before I knew about prog rock. Some people are going to stay ignorant and not bother to learn, sure, but some people are just ignorant because they didn't know but yet they may always be willing to learn (as in the case of my friend who now enjoys prog rock alongside hip hop). ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 22:52
In first place, it was a different generation, much more `rebel than this one, Hippies gave a damn about propaganda and fashion, they dressed and acted as they wanted, today if kids don't buy clothes by Tommy or whoever is famous, they are unhappy.
In the 60's and early 70's, it was cool being against the system, living as you wanted, listening good Rock bands, today is just the opposite.
It's also important to notuice that the labels were managed by their owners, who had interest in recruiting good artists that could be part of their staff for years and supported them, today the labels are managed by young executives who are evaluated by the money they make in a short term, they don't care if an artist stays with the label for a year, they onlly care how many albums they will sell in 3 months.
And last but not least, even when Prog was much more popular, still never was a really popular genre, look at the to hits of 72, 73 and 74, none of them were Prog.
I started listening Prog in 1976 when I was 12, in those years most of the people only heard music in English, but in my promotion (144) only 3 of us were Progheads and not more than 10 or 20, knew about Prog
I'm sure that today there are kids listening alternative genres, but compared to lets say Rap, I'm almost sure they are the vast minority.
Iván
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 22:55
Not in my case, but I'm too old to change.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Henry Plainview
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 23:00
Wow, Ivan, you are even more elitist than I am. And that's hard.
Way back when I was 13, before I became addicted to ear scratching, my favorite band in the whole world was Linkin Park (followed by Evanescence and System of a Down). I loved everything about them, and I listened to them so much that for quite a long time I could hum the rest of the song and say a good chunk of the words for any of their songs from their first two albums (which, I know, given the repetitiveness of their music, isn't saying all that much, but even still). I was introduced to them because that is the type of music my friends, yes, and I wasn't aware of other types of music at the time, but are you really going to sit here and say that I listened to Hybrid Theory 150 times because the radio told me to?
People listen to pop music because they don't care about music like we do and/or they are ignorant of other types of music and/or their intrinsic taste is suited towards that sort of thing (which is unfortunate, but the truth, and we can't change that). This sheeple nonsense doesn't do anybody any good, and, frankly, makes us the jerk-offs non-prog people think we are. ------------- if you own a sodastream i hate you |
Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 23:12
I think everybody here would have started out with commercialized music unless their parents or some other influential people in their childhood introduced them to more sophisticated music. The problem is very few develop the curiosity to explore beyond what the TV channels and the radio tell them is good. How do they tell them? By playing only the songs of the artists they want to promote, I presume. I have experienced this because Western music is not widely listened to in my country, so I had to make an active effort to step outside my comfort zone and expose myself to different approaches to music. Why did I do it? Because I sensed that much as I liked what I was listening to, I had become too astute to not spot similarities across the board in the approach of different composers and wanted to move on. I placed trust in my best friend's judgment in this matter and got a start - well, LZ, Pink Floyd and a few more of the legends - after that, I was on my own. But most people will not easily make this first step, they are much too defensive about their music tastes to take kindly to different opinions or recommendations. It's funny because these are the sort of people who will claim they like all sorts of music and have an open mind and don't believe in genres et all and then it comes out..all sorts except rock, metal noise, blah blah blah, the list goes on. One also has to remember that music is not usually so important for them as it is for most of us on this forum. Even those of us here like me who are not professional musicians will concede they spend a lot of time listening to and thinking about music. The industry, in my opinion, is also using elevator music as a powerful tool to keep the tastes of the general public even more under their control - creating music that sounds beautiful and inoffensive but has no drama or emotion is the easiest way to ensure nobody will dislike it. Someday when I have the time and inclination, I will deal with that in a long essay...but here, it will be off topic.  |
Posted By: jplanet
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 23:34
When you're a kid, you go to the concerts that your friends go to, you buy the albums that the girl you wanted to date was into, it's all based around a social premise. If all the kids in school are talking about Yes and their rotating stage, or Keith Emerson impaling his Hammond with daggers, the idea that THAT is what is cool is contagious... ------------- https://www.facebook.com/ShadowCircus/" rel="nofollow - ..::welcome to the shadow circus::.. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 23:36
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: December 08 2008 at 23:52
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Just to make the point. A few months ago I saw in Biography channel, a guy who called himself the artist maker. This guy in his late 50's had bought a ranch in Texas and started a business. he posted in the newspapers adds inviting kids of certain physical characteristics and ages to join a band. He didn't cared if they knew how to sing, even he bragged that he knew nothing about music, but he knew about business. So this guy teamed groups of 4 or 5 kids, dressed them with the most popular clothes, cut their hairs in a determined style and created a personality for them. Hired guys who wrote harmless but catchy music and voila, he had 10 boys bands, probably 7 or 8 will be totally unknown, but if one of them reached popularity, he had his expenses covered and if two sold albums, he made a lot of money. BTW: The guy was extremely wealthy.
Isn't that manipulation?
Iván -------------
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 00:11
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some people here are being too broad and general. there are other genres besides prog and pop. some kids these days never go near pop (or prog...) or at least not for long. Yes some do start with pop if they have parents that also listen to whatever's on the radio.
besides, music just isnt for everyone. i mean, im sure some of the guys over at the architecture forums wonder why more people arent into architecture.
there's also people that pretty much will listen to whatever anyone puts on, radio or otherwise (friends cd's, ipods etc...) and enjoy it. There ARE people who will listen to anything
i think some people just dont care enough about music to take the time to explore whats out there. Too distracted by their lives.
as for the original poster's query, it is interesting how pop/rock bands have been taking influence from prog rock like The Foo Fighters, System of a Down (and solo related), The White Stripes (and Jack White) just to name a few, cant actually think of others at the moment.
Prog will eventually fall into the a category similar to jazz, classical, latin, blues, and such, in terms of it's acceptance to the music world as a 'formal' musical genre.
just some thoughts ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm 
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Posted By: rogerthat
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 02:04
I think he was really wondering whether he would get saturated with jazz/classical/prog and start enjoying pop. Theoretically, why not? But to again give an example, my grandpa has been listening to Indian Classical music since he was a teen and he still sticks to it - he's 80 come January! He doesn't feel the need for a lighter form of music even for the sake of variety. He laments that there's no one in the household to appreciate his massive collection when he'll be gone.  So, I don't think pop can replace prog as a staple for a prog fan. I like good pop once in a while but mostly it's prog or metal.
I doubt it. It will remain an exotic rock genre in the eyes of the mainstream and one that the critics are reluctant to both understand and embrace, just like metal. Metal brings up the dumb, noisy, violent extreme and prog brings up the artsy, pretentious, soulless extreme. And I love both genres. |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 02:46
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As a rule I don't enjoy pop music - but horror of horrors - now and then something on the radio will grab me for a while. I don't like the "commercialism" of music that is fully prevalent today - the Pop Idol syndrome - where Idols are made and unmade in the space of very short periods. It's all about money making - make as much as you can, as quickly as you can and then next please. Good luck to Simon Cowell and his mates - they drive fancy, very expensive cars by exploiting basic talent and then next time round dumping those creations for new basic talent. Sometimes life's about money but me - I prefer to remain true to my roots. Good on yer Dream Theater. ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: December 09 2008 at 12:40
| Dream Theater? So poppy... |
Posted By: DavetheSlave
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 05:43
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Hey CPicard - What's poppy about DT?? ------------- I'm a normal psychopath |
Posted By: CPicard
Date Posted: December 10 2008 at 15:10
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Sound: polished (hardly some distortion effects from time to time); Melodies: melodic (never one dissonant chord); Lyrics: soft, gentle and neutral (no social commentary); Records covers: Photoshopped artwork. DavetheSlave: blind to irony. |
Posted By: lady
Date Posted: January 01 2009 at 20:18
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i get the impression sometimes that some prog fans are way too interested in progs relevance in mainstream culture.you just gotta love music for what it is and how it makes you feel and ignore what others think of it whether it be good or bad.if pop music did end up influencing prog and it sounded good then why should it matter?you just gotta stop thinking of what you're listening to and just listen.to tell you the truth sometimes i do become a little angry when the music i love that has been known to me and a select few does get a bit of attention because its kinda like someone discovering your favorite hiding spot, you feel as tho you have some kind of right over it because it was yours first but then i think back to the countless times i've complained about how inept people are to good music. so in a way i contradict myself. |
Posted By: ProgShine
Date Posted: January 01 2009 at 20:46
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I don't think so, but pop music have a lots of meanings, The Beatles is pop, isn't? Madonna is pop isn't? Pink Floyd is pop isn't? But no, we could keep ourselves calm down, prog music is, in most of the cases, hated in so many levels, that i'm not worried about that ------------- https://progshinerecords.bandcamp.com 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: January 01 2009 at 21:00
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Posted By: Lost Follower
Date Posted: January 02 2009 at 05:48
Are you telling me that 'Owner of a lonely heart' isn't pop music? ------------- ~Jump you f**ker jump~ |
Posted By: Lost Follower
Date Posted: January 02 2009 at 05:52
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Surely 'Prog' as we know it actually came out of 'Pop' music in the first place? Strwaberry Fields, Arnold Layne,See Emily Play,My White Bicycle, Tomorrow never knows,Knights in white satin, Whiter shade of pale... See where I'm coming from here? ------------- ~Jump you f**ker jump~ |
Posted By: Petrovsk Mizinski
Date Posted: January 02 2009 at 05:57
I'm an elitist, and refuse to believe such garbage -------------
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Posted By: Lost Follower
Date Posted: January 02 2009 at 06:11
Notice how I spelt Strawberry Fields with a lisp above! You can run but you can't hide my friend. All those prog monsters you love were all in dozy pop groups in the 60's. Some were brilliant, some were, um not. Embrace the POP!  ------------- ~Jump you f**ker jump~ |
Posted By: dionysian_one
Date Posted: April 06 2009 at 05:45
Some guy at a bar that I bartended at got into an argument with me about Pink Floyd selling out just because their songs became popular (pop being short for popular, lets not forget). Since "Money" and "Time" got radio airplay and was considered popular, he claimed that they just wrote it that way because they knew everyone would buy it. Obviously, I argued him out the door. I agree that Pop (as it is now) could NEVER morph into Prog, or somehow mutate into being remotely thought of as prog. I think the main reason is because the bast@rd producers or whatever, that MOLD poor poor young minds into pop stars, will never understand real music. They only understand the feeble teen mind and what can be marketed to it. Therefor music not being any part of their concern. To me, Progressive by definition means that the music ITSELF is progressing further. Evolving. Not just by skill, but by spirit and enlightenment (if you will). People with no soul are of no risk to the Prog rock universe, because you cannot progress without a soul. Only rot and infect others. Unfortunately, their infection has reached plauge levels. Which is why pretty much all popular music today has destroyed so many ignorant youths. Makes me sad. I wonder if ever we'll get out of this dull nothingness of Miley Ciruss's, Beyonce's, Timberlake's, and 50 cent's. Every time I hear them I just cant see any message at all in their music. Do they just want me to F?ck more people? What? Mahalo Blue Vino hear us at www.reverbnation.com/bluevino or at www.myspace.com/bluevinoband ------------- Bo, Blue Vino. Hear us at www.reverbnation.com/bluevino, or at www.myspace.com/bluevinoband |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 06 2009 at 06:48
Oddly enough I find it easy to steer clear of those "artists". ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: April 06 2009 at 07:11
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Will pop go prog...?
No, I think, pop will eat itself.. |
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: April 06 2009 at 07:45
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------------- What? |
Posted By: JLocke
Date Posted: April 06 2009 at 07:54
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Pop already did go Prog. Beatles, Moody Blues, Jefferson Airplane . . . ringin' any bells?
The Pop music these days is so far removed from even Rock, much less Prog. I doubt the modern Pop music of today will ever 'evolve'.
But I've been wrong many times before, so . . .
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Posted By: Epignosis
Date Posted: April 06 2009 at 07:56
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How cool would it be if Kellogg's made Prog Tarts?
------------- https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays" rel="nofollow - https://epignosis.bandcamp.com/album/a-month-of-sundays |
Posted By: mr.cub
Date Posted: April 06 2009 at 11:34
So Help Me God!!!
 I think this is an interesting thread. Personally if I was saturated by prog then I would just move on to jazz or classical music. Pop music will rarely ever sound new to me, especially in this day and age. The goal of pop music is not to create something new, it is to cash in on a proven existing template. But then again, I doubt I would ever be completely bored of prog, even if I did I would certainly come back to it in due time.
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Posted By: moshkito
Date Posted: April 06 2009 at 11:45
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Hi,
Funny that you should connect the two ... the majority of the bands we consider "prog" that helped define that which we hjave ended up calling "prog" ... got their start on the AM dial with a hit or so ... don't ask Yes or Genesis, or Jethro Tull or ELP ... because that is exactly what got them here ... one could say they ... errr ... grew up?
That said there is a lot of pop music that is much more advanced and progressive than we would prefer to give them credit for ... however, we -- as an elitist bunch that we are -- would not want this special category to be corrupted .,.. so we prefer to stick with the thought that progressive bands are not pop music ... and ... whatevah!
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Posted By: darkshade
Date Posted: April 07 2009 at 17:47
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there's no reason to give up and move to pop rock n roll blues jazz latin classical hard rock metal world music funk soul gospel psychedelic rock avant-garde samba punk hardcore bluegrass old school hip-hop GOOD rap swing ragtime not to mention all the combinations and variations of all of these. blame modern pop on the parents of the kids who want the stars' merchandise, the kids dont know any better until their late teens or so (unless they just dont care) ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/MysticBoogy" rel="nofollow - My Last.fm
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Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: April 07 2009 at 17:58
Prog Tarts are rare but can be seen hanging out around Greg Lake's tour bus on occasion |
Posted By: She-Hulk
Date Posted: April 08 2009 at 04:52
On the subject of pop (or, popularity)....no one can steer clear of those "artists." Pop is almost entirely full of Sh!t. You can steer clear of them only by listening to YOUR music (like on iPods or on your CD player, etc). But if you dare to turn on the radio, there's no escaping them. I wish there was a Prog station. Even satellite radio doesn't have anything that tailors to us prog rockers. Sad. ------------- yeah, I'm she-hulk. So what. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: April 09 2009 at 10:46
After some time I conme back to this thread just ti try to understand what the question is, because asking if POP will turn into Prog is like asking if Salsa will turn into Jazz.
The question you ask really involves a problem among may Prog fans, you are asking if POP will turn into an imaginative and fresh style to you, two characteristics you identify as exclusive part of Prog.
Yes,. at some point you may like POP, I don't see any problem, but this POP, no matter how much you like it, will never be PROG, not because one is better or not than the other, but because POP and Prog are two different conceptions of music.
I like a lot of POP, find it fresh and interesting, but still not Prog, it's a different animal with different characteristicsm, even when both can be rewarding to you and me, a POP artist can turn Prog or most usually a Prog artist may turn POP, but when an artist moves from Prog to POP, ceases to be Prog to turn POP, the same happens with the opposite case.
Cheers
Iván
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Posted By: hawkcwg
Date Posted: April 10 2009 at 11:20
They Already have look at Yes, and Genesis, I can't even listen to some Yes songs because they are so pop sounding. ugg. ------------- 
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Posted By: progkidjoel
Date Posted: April 12 2009 at 23:31
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No. Never. ------------- 
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Posted By: Anaesthetist72
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 10:01
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If pop music became prog, then it would be good... because all the elements we love about it would actually make pop music worth listening to. however, the masses prefer mindless dumbed-down music that takes no intelligence or skill to create... So, if pop became prog, it would no longer be pop. the end. |
Posted By: Anaesthetist72
Date Posted: April 23 2009 at 10:07
It's true that a lot of prog bands have eventually went pop, but that's not the same as pop becoming prog, or vice versa. It's years of bands that make excellent music eventually compromising all that they stand for to make some bucks and finally be recognize in the music scene. These bands played the music we love for years with little recognition and eventually decided to change who they were for the mighty dollar or popularity. But in these cases I'm referring to... the band changed genres. They went pop. The genre didn't change, the bands did. |
Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: April 26 2009 at 12:14
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If Muse aren't pop prog then I don't know what is.
If you hate Muse that's fine, but I disagree with the common belief among proggies that prog rock can never cross the boundries of pop music, I think it certainly can. Yes did it with Roundabout did they not?
It seems a lot of proggies hate anything that's even remotely pop, I sometimes feel that these people are just being snobby to the extent of writing off anything they feel could be accessible to other people.
I like 90125, I'm not ashamed of it, and I love 80s era King Crimson, Discipline is one of my favorite albums from them. I'm also a big fan of David Bowie, Todd Rundgren, The Beach Boys, Fleetwood Mac, Michael Jackson (laugh if you must), 70s power pop and british pop rock bands like Primal Scream, Super Furry Animals and Blur. I can tell you that pop music can be just as great as any other form of music. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow"> 
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Posted By: verslibre
Date Posted: April 26 2009 at 14:51
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I'll certainly take Coheed & Cambria over those Nickelbag guys for a "mainstream" band.
------------- https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_ipg=50&_sop=1&_rdc=1&_ssn=musicosm" rel="nofollow - eBay |
Posted By: npjnpj
Date Posted: April 27 2009 at 04:13
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We're not discussing anything really new here. It's prog alongside commercial, each with their individual audiences, and it's been that way since I started listening closely to music in the early 70s. The actual rate just fluctuates slightly. Cowell's stuff used to be disco music and suchlike, with short lived artificial acts that usually didn't last longer than a hit or two, the stuff played on the radio. Kung-Fu Fighting or Baccara, anyone? Just good to know that prog has never been smothered in the last 40 years and because of that I'm confident that it won't be in future either. I'm not worried. Even if for a niche, creativity isn't stifled that easily. In fact just the opposite. Prog with its large number variations has just been growing as an art form, if possibly not in appreciation. So what? The world is full of Joe The Plumbers who would never appreciate any of the main prog artists past and present, even at gunpoint. So let him continue to buy Cowell product or country music. No skin off my nose. As for the original topic: Pop could only become prog if at some point in the future something new comes along to replace it that makes hip-hop, rap or Brittney's music seem the height of brilliant creativity by comparison. Hm, don't really see that happening. Then again, who knows? |
Posted By: J-Man
Date Posted: April 27 2009 at 15:47
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Not a chance simply because the definitions of pop and prog are opposites. Pop can be rock, rap, or whatever else you want... except prog. Pop comes from the word popular, and prog isn't written to be popular, so there is no chance this is even a possibility. Rock can come in many forms. Rap can come in many forms. So can pop. But we've never seen a pop song with complexity, long instrumental sections, and epic song lengths. Now, we can have a prog song with more pop-like arrangements, but there is no possibility of a full pop-prog crossover.
------------- 
Check out my YouTube channel! http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/user/demiseoftime |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: April 27 2009 at 16:06
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I can't tell you this because I will have to kill you, but black will become white. However you won't notice the change because you will wake up one morning and they will have changed yet you won't actually perceive it. ------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened...
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Posted By: boo boo
Date Posted: April 27 2009 at 16:12
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Pop songs can be long and complex, Bohemien Rhapsody is a prime example.
Even if they are very different structures, prog music was about breaking limitations and I think its silly to put any kind of limitation on what genres can or can't be merged together, especially with prog. The Beatles proved that pop music can be groundbreaking and progressive. There's certianly material out there that could be considered progressive pop. And I don't mean just prog rock bands like Yes and Genesis who have gone pop.
I'd recommend some Super Furry Animals and Stereolab. ------------- http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs/?chartstyle=LastfmSuicjdeGirls" rel="nofollow">
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