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Ivan_Melgar_M 
Special Collaborator 
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
 Posted: August 11 2007 at 23:28 |
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Agree with that, for example, I believe all Gabriel Genesis albums are ESSENTIAL, so I rated all with 5 stars (That's what the guidelines say i must do), but honestly, I don't like SEBTP as much as I like Foxtrot, Nursery Cryme and Trespass, 4.5 (Not 5.5 that would be a joke) will reflect that SEBTP is ESSENTIAL but Foxtrot, NC and Trespass are slightly better.
Another case is the ELP debut, I don't believe it's a great addition for every Prog collection, it's very good but IMHO if you have Trilogy and BSS, you have the essential ELP.
On the other hand I gave OK Computer the same 3 stars, because saying it's less than good would be lying, but at the end of the day Emerson Lake & Palmer debut is much better than any Radiohead album (Again IMHO).
What should I do? Lie and say OK Computer is not a good album or keep it at the same level of a superior album?
If I gave 2 stars to OK computer i would be manipulating the charts, but if I give 3.5 to ELP I would be being perfectly honest and will reflect in a better way my review.
None of us here wants to manipulate the ratings, it's would be stupid, I never cared for the top 100, I rather have Hybris and Epilog than Larks Tongues in Aspic despite their position and said 100 times I don't believe SEBTP is a top 5 album despite how much I love Genesis.
We have been able to show what we think on a review which is much more important than a rating, if not I wouldn't had writen almost 200 reviews with an average of 800 words.
Being a Special Collaborator and if I wanted to manipulate an average it would be easier to make 200 words reviews to be posted and have multiplied my rating for ten in the charts, but the fact that i take hours to write them (Using a thesaurus because my English is not in a native level) proves I care for my reviews but an accurate rating also helps a lot.
Why (If it's possible of course) shouldn't we try to be more precise? Why should we be accused of trying to manipulate a chart we don't care about?
I dobn't doubt of the honesty of any member only because he/she wants to make this site better with an opinion he believes in, Not only the Collaborators suggestions are worth or deserve to be listened, if somebody believes in something, muust be allowed to say it without having fear of being accused of dishonesty.
If we cared for charts we won't be listening Prog that is never in te top charts of popularity some of us since Prog was extremely unpopular or when everybody else thought it was dead and even reviewing some of the most unknown albums.
If it's possible would be great, if it's not, well we will continue making our reviews as we have done them since we joined the site, but i don't believe recommending something we believe is an improvement is a sin, by the contrary, shows our interest for the site.
Iván
BTW: What about the people who make ratings without reviews because they are not able to write a coherent review in English?
For them the acuracy of a rating is the only way availlable to express what they believe. Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 12 2007 at 02:35 |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21680 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 04:41 |
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Sorry, but one or two stars are also "harsh" ... there is no polite way to say that you really don't like an album - or that the recording artists made grave errors or need to practice more. Edited by MikeEnRegalia - August 12 2007 at 04:42 |
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 06:57 |
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0 stars was seen as being disrespectful to the artists (as opposed to just harsh). I suspect also that 0 causes more problems with calculations sometimes (but Mike will know better whether that's the case! M@x's reluctance in the past to change the starts have mainly been down to the implications for existing ratings. i.e., do we automatically assume that 5 star reviews remain 5 stars, not 4.5?
Quite a lot of reviewers will say that an album is worth 4.99 stars but not 5, then give 4 stars. Their reviews would look a bit odd if they continued with 4 stars when 4.5 is available.
If there is a strong push from the memebrs for half stars, or 1-10 ratings, I'm sure M@x will reconsider. Is that strength of opinion there, or is this more of a nice to have?
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Joolz
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: March 24 2006 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 1377 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 07:31 |
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Not from me ... I am opposed to any change because I believe the current system to be perfectly adequate ... ratings are there as a quick reference, a very rough guide to how the reviewer feels .... if you want more detail then you read the review. The problem with the current system ... apart from the many reviewers who give false ratings [eg 5 stars for non-Prog albums etc] .... is that the 'rating' is used as the basis of the chart. IMO if you want to create a proper chart from members ratings then you need to have a lot more detail .... graded by 100 with different categories like 'progginess', sound quality, enjoyment factor, musical quality, songwriting etc. ... only then will you get a decent chart from it. |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21680 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 07:43 |
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^ I thought about splitting the rating into different aspects and then deriving a combined value ... maybe I'll implement that on my website. But even to me as a certified "Ratingfreak" it seems a little bit over the top. Do you think that reviewers would take the time and fill out such detailed "evaluation forms" for every album they review?
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Angelo
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 07:45 |
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I knew it.... your real name is Nigel T.  |
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: July 27 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 7659 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 08:07 |
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I am not happy with the current 5 star rating possibilities and I have given my opinion about it since early 2004 but nothing changes, only the lay out and the things that M@X is interested in
For example: there is too much space between a two star (only for fans) and 3 star (good) and too much space between 4 stars (excellent addition ) and 5 stars (masterpiece). You can be creative with mentioning 3,5 stars of 4,5 stars but this doesn't change the rating that accompanies the review. There should also be a kind of extraordinary rating category (6 stars) for Classic Prog masterpieces like Foxtrot by Genesis or Close To The Edge by Yes because these albums are on an extremely high level, extremely innovative and extremely pivotal.
I have to admit that for me it's harder to think about the rating than to write a review  , perhaps M@X reads this thread and is willing to change the rating instead of change again things in the lay out where nobody is waiting for!Edited by erik neuteboom - August 12 2007 at 08:32 |
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21680 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 08:24 |
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One thing I've been thinking about and which I will definitely implement is that along with the rating the reviewer will be able to assign a level of "importance" to the album:
0: Unimportant 1: only for collectors 2: only useful for fans of the band/artist 3: recommended for fans of the genre 4: essential for fans of the genre 5: absolutely essential |
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Shakespeare
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: July 18 2006 Status: Offline Points: 7744 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 08:48 |
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I'm pretty apathetic on this topic, now.
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46838 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 09:02 |
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ditto from me Bob... the ratings have become some sort of a game, an obsession to some. That should have been obvious when some here wanted to remove live prog albums from the top prog album list. Enough... There is no need to fix what isn't broken... the stars are a guide, a quick reference. What counts is the review itself. |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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Prog-jester
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 05 2005 Location: Love Beach Status: Offline Points: 5919 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 09:15 |
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I agree with Eric, but I mostly have problems with 3 stars. Most albums that recieved this rating from me were 2.5 or 3.5 in fact. But giving 2 or 4 stars would be unfair...I'm so confused
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Half-stars would be a good point IMHO. But it will cause massive re-writing of ALL REVIEWS!!!  That will simply kill PA's normal activity for months
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erik neuteboom
Prog Reviewer
Joined: July 27 2005 Location: Netherlands Status: Offline Points: 7659 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 09:16 |
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I have the idea that fellow collaborators underestimate how important the ratings and the categories are for all those greedy progheads who visit Prog Archives in order to discover good music: they have to make choices because everyday the homepage is flooded by new reviews and to me it seems that it will only become more because Prog Archives is hot! During my work for Dutch progrock magazines I discovered that the following elements are important for the readers of reviews:
- the name of the reviewer (reliability is very important)
- referring to big names like Pink Floyd, ELP, Genesis, King Crimson and Yes because
these bands they are familiar to and they are often searching for 'prog like Genesis' or
'prog in the vein of ELP', etc.
- the category (there are lots of ardent Prog-metal haters or notorious Neo-prog haters
or progheads who don't like Seventies or vintage keyboards prog.
- the rating only few progheads read all the reviews so they choose to pick up the 4 and
5 star rating, rather than checking out interesting bands with 3 or 3,5 star ratings.
By the way, fellow collaborators, Eric is my USA twin-brother, it's Erik, derived from the Skandinavian Vikings....
Edited by erik neuteboom - August 12 2007 at 09:21 |
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micky
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: October 02 2005 Location: . Status: Offline Points: 46838 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 09:28 |
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and your point is.... no one is calling for removal of the ratings. As I posted earlier...it is no problem to round up or down. I assume we all learned how to do that in school. Have yet to hear a significant difference between a 3 star album and 3.5 star album for example. All you have to do is review an album and give a rating based on 1-5... what is so damn hard about that |
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The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
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MikeEnRegalia
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 22 2005 Location: Sweden Status: Offline Points: 21680 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 09:43 |
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yes ... why not reduce the ratings to 0 (bad) and 1 (bad) ... after all, nothing matters anyway.  |
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Shakespeare
Forum Senior Member
Joined: July 18 2006 Status: Offline Points: 7744 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 09:47 |
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"Everything is meaningless," cried the teacher.
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 11:04 |
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...and you should see his axe!
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ProgBagel
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 13 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2819 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 13:35 |
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FYI, manipulating the ratings was not anything I had in mind...and it is impossible to do for the big albums, anyway.
As stated before I would have most trouble with the 3 star rating...it would be a vacuum for so many albums I'd like the review. And if one were to look at my reviews, they would most likely judge that there all on the same level. Now about mentioning the 3.5 stars really!!! is a good argument...it doesn't really help when I check out someones reviews that I feel I can agree on, because if I want to go by their ratings and they have a lot of reviews there might be a few 5's and decent amount of 4's...but what about the three's...I can just check all of the out and see which say 3.5 really!!! Although I'm not intending to 'manipulate' the ratings...the .5 would make them slighty more accurate and possibly agreeable. |
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Ivan_Melgar_M
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: April 27 2004 Location: Peru Status: Offline Points: 19557 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 14:50 |
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That's a strong point, I agree in this for both reasons, first it's a total disrespect to say someone, what you did in 6 months or a year odf hard work and love means nothing, it's not even worth a star that I can give for free, is a total disrespect.
And it's a problem for rating because an album with nio reviews will havee 0 stars exatcly as an album with 10 reviews and 0 stars and thatt would require a negative rating for the 0 stars average to leave the two in the same plane.
When a studen't gives a test here in Per'u (our system is from 0 to 20), he's got 5 points just for placing his name, I believe just the work and risk of releasing an album in a non profitable genre deserves at least one star, even if the album is terrible, he's helping to keep the genre alive because some people will like it.
1.- t's possible to m,anipulate the ratings ProgBagel, Guigo once told me that the difference between the first five albums is so short that even one rating (Specially if done with review by a Collaborator which is worth ten times a rating without review) may make the difference.
But I don't believe you are trying to manipulate the ratings, talking about our honesty is a total disrespect, even a criminal is considered innocent until is proven guilty.
Why in hell shoyuld people who break their b@lls working for free will want to manipulate the ratings?
Something else, with some extra ratings, the chanvces of manipulating would be less, because you have more variables.
2,. The 2 - 4 stars ratings is where the problem relies, but I prropose:
Maybe the text may change, but having more options, the rating will go parallel to the review, as Bob said I read reviews saying "4.99 so I wiill go with 4 stars" that is contradictory to say the less.
Then why change Art Rock, why add RPI if the system has worked so well that lead us to the first place in the net?
Simply because we want to make it even better, the spirit of superation makes us progress, if we stayed with what works, we will still be using kerosene lamps because at the end light is light.
Those who don't improve are condemned to faillure.
Iván Edited by Ivan_Melgar_M - August 12 2007 at 16:45 |
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ProgBagel
Prog Reviewer
Joined: May 13 2007 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 2819 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 15:03 |
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Are you a sage...Iván?
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Easy Livin
Special Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: February 21 2004 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 15585 |
Posted: August 12 2007 at 15:08 |
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In Peru, Ivan actually means "The wise man from the mountains, who is the font of knowledge on all things progressive".
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Will there ever be an added .5 star rating?
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chamberry wrote:
