Will there ever be an added .5 star rating?
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Forum Name: Help us improve the site
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URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40798
Printed Date: April 07 2025 at 03:29
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Topic: Will there ever be an added .5 star rating?
Posted By: ProgBagel
Subject: Will there ever be an added .5 star rating?
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 13:54
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I've been wanting to submit reviews from my favorite artist...but I feel like I want be albe to justify my reviews based on a 1-2-3-4-5 star rating scale...if we could just add the .5 star rating it would give it such a more accurate rating.
Ever think a yes or genesis fan were reluctant to give CTTE or SEBTP even 4 stars to bring down the rating? Of couse it should only apply to new reviews and ratings. Just an idea. |
Replies:
Posted By: Evans
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 14:01
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Don't put so much weight into it... i know i don't, haha! No, but really, it's not the entire world, if i can't decide between a 4 or a 5 star rating, i don't put off my review for that, i let my mood decide for me. Because really, i know that noone will read my review and think "omg, he gave it 5 stars, it must be a masterpiece", at least i don't. When someone posts a five star review which i read, i think "oh, he likes it a lot", as i do with a 4 star, and the same with 1 and 2 stars. Ah well.. ------------- 
'Let's give it another fifteen seconds..' |
Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 15:10
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Well sometimes if I come by one and say..."the was well written" or "I agree completely" I look at others he writes and gives high rating for which in sways me to buy the album (its happened a few times.)
Even on discussion forums I sometimes agree with a poster and check out there reviews. I just think theres would be a huge dividing line between 4-4.5-5 stars. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 15:10
I don't think there will ever be a change of the rating system here ... you're welcome to experiment with more fine grained rating steps on my website (ratingfreak.com), which offers not only "half steps" but also 0.1 steps in the upper range.
------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to: 
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Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 15:30
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I fully endorse this idea. I have a lot of albums that I've rated 2.5, 3.5 and 4.5 and I always end up giving them the lower rating (from 3.5 to 3). The problem is, what are we going to do with previous reviews? Many have people would like to change their rating if the system gets change and it'll leave a lot of work to the Reviews Moderators. ------------- 
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 15:30
Mike - stop plugging your site! I have written an extension for the Firefox AdBlock plugin that allows users to block individual forum members - if you do this again I'll release it to open source  But seriously - I think you're right with respect to the PA rating system. There's too many reviews out there already to change the system now. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
MikeEnRegalia wrote:Posted By: Finnforest
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 15:37
Mike, you changed your picture thingey!!! I miss that little muppet dude already
------------- ...that moment you realize you like "Mob Rules" better than "Heaven and Hell" |
Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 15:41
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Well that depends if the people do want to change there old reviews...and plus you can just make it only for new reviews.
Just some more ideas... And I will check out your site tonight Mike..looks intense and my mind isn't cleared up yet. |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 15:45
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I think our rating scale should go to 11, just in case you need that extra little bit of rating. ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 16:08
 Stars are only for approximate orientation ...  The essence comes from the review text where I often use a .5 expression for a special tendency. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow">  |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 16:08
Well, why don't we redivide the existing 5, so that 5 gets that little bit of extra? ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 16:12
 Oh - this is what I'm looking for ... But I don't betray who should be blocked first  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 16:15
I'm not trying to lure people away ... I'll even add a feature to my website which will enable people to link to their reviews at PA, so they can submit reviews here and rate albums at my place. I'll also add the PA star rating to my website as a tag, so you can have the stars displayed in the signature.  ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: laplace
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 16:16
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I agree. one star is too much for The Wall. ------------- FREEDOM OF SPEECH GO TO HELL |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 16:22
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 16:57
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Yes I agree yesterday I had tio give ELP debut 3 stars but I feel bad because compared to their later works, this album doesn't deserve 4 stars and 3 stars is a bit unfair.
Iván ------------- 
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 17:14
| What would we do about the thousands of reviews and ratings already on the site? It would only be reasonable to assume that people would want to make changes to those. |
Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 17:40
At least you can take a joke ... and since can read this, I haven't blocked you - yet ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: The Doctor
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 17:41
My ratings go to 11.  ------------- I can understand your anger at me, but what did the horse I rode in on ever do to you? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 18:19
Hi Bob, if I remember there was once the chance top givee 0 stars reviews, I personally rated every post Duke Genesis album with 0 stars
 but it was changed and we all had to accept it, the owners and Adms have the right to make changes.And it that case it was even worst because our ratings were changed from 0 to 1 but of course nobody said a word, that's the site's priviledge, we're only guests here.
So people will have to accept it also if it's better for the site, but that decision must be taken by the adms, mailto:M@X - M@X and Ronnie if you all consider it's better for PA.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 19:03
I'm all for it... Not only for the .5 ratings but also for a triumphant return of the 0-stars rating, which I could use with masterful precision  ------------- 
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 19:06
No I agree with the site policy, it's harsh to give an album 0 stars for something they did with lots of work.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: The T
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 19:14
Mmm... maybe... but a second listen to "Illegal Alien" will prove that that song doesn't even have that going for it.... I'm pretty sure it was recorded in 5 minutes  ....-------------
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Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 19:24
| I kind of like it the way it is...but I don't have anything against changing it, either. Maybe you should make a poll, with the choices being "for" , "against" and "apathetic". |
Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 19:30
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The poll is a decent idea...but PA not a democracy .
The 0 rating is kind of harsh haha...I don't think any album deserves that. Being generous or not. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 19:35
Yes you are right, but I received Invisible Touch and Love Beach as a gift and both are working as coasters
 that at least deserves one star. No honestly, there's no need to offend so hardly any artist telling hin/her/them, your album is crap and it's worth nothing.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: King of Loss
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 19:53
| 0 stars will be abused as such .5 stars, plus I don't think many albums fall in the 0 star category especially... |
Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 20:01
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There are easier ways to fairly lower CTTE than getting the mid-point rating. Example? 4.5, really!!!!!!! |
Posted By: Dirk
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 20:14
| 0 star rating is not necessary, being able to rate from 1 to 10 which is the same as being able to rate from 1-5 with halves put in would certainly help to rate more accurately. I'd even suggest rating from 0-15 as the Gnosis site does. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 20:15
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My two cents... there are other things that the site needs to deal with than giving those would like to manipulate the ratings list another tool to do it with. If feel like you need an extra half star to rate an album.... you are only interested in manipulating the rankings. Your review should spell out in words the distinction in a album halfway between those stars and round up or down as we all have done. I think enough time has been wasted on tinkering with the reviews and the ratings... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 20:16
That's what I feel about many of my 3 star reviews. If I feel like the album is a little bit better than a "good, but non-essential", but still not a 4 star then I write 3.5 in the end of the review although it would be better if we had the whole .5 star rating. -------------
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Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 20:16
| 1 - 5 sums up the quality of the album, and in words you should specifically describe how good it is, how much you like it, and, again, it always works to give a 4.5, really!!!!!!!! |
Posted By: Dirk
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 20:27
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Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 20:35
The is the best way of putting it.
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 20:36
exactly my point ..... people feel at loss to quantify in in a 1-5 structure because that is what is most important to them... placing the emphasis on the rating.. not the review itself. Leave it the way it is. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 20:40
| FINAL WORD^ let's not dwell too long here |
Posted By: chamberry
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 20:41
Actually, there are some people that will still look at the ratings no matter how well one talks about the album. Personally I would like my ratings to be in par with my reviews. -------------
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Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 20:54
pretty please 
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Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 20:55
| NO |
Posted By: Dirk
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 20:57
I know myself , i've not been a very prolific reviewer sofar, all the albums i reviewed sofar have gotten 4 stars although they range from 3.75 to 4.5 imo sofar which is quite a difference. Another example is Erik's database, it was fun for me browsing through it because he distinghuishes now in rating between a lot of albums that he just gave 3 or 4 stars in the past. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 11 2007 at 23:28
Agree with that, for example, I believe all Gabriel Genesis albums are ESSENTIAL, so I rated all with 5 stars (That's what the guidelines say i must do), but honestly, I don't like SEBTP as much as I like Foxtrot, Nursery Cryme and Trespass, 4.5 (Not 5.5 that would be a joke) will reflect that SEBTP is ESSENTIAL but Foxtrot, NC and Trespass are slightly better.
Another case is the ELP debut, I don't believe it's a great addition for every Prog collection, it's very good but IMHO if you have Trilogy and BSS, you have the essential ELP.
On the other hand I gave OK Computer the same 3 stars, because saying it's less than good would be lying, but at the end of the day Emerson Lake & Palmer debut is much better than any Radiohead album (Again IMHO).
What should I do? Lie and say OK Computer is not a good album or keep it at the same level of a superior album?
If I gave 2 stars to OK computer i would be manipulating the charts, but if I give 3.5 to ELP I would be being perfectly honest and will reflect in a better way my review.
None of us here wants to manipulate the ratings, it's would be stupid, I never cared for the top 100, I rather have Hybris and Epilog than Larks Tongues in Aspic despite their position and said 100 times I don't believe SEBTP is a top 5 album despite how much I love Genesis.
We have been able to show what we think on a review which is much more important than a rating, if not I wouldn't had writen almost 200 reviews with an average of 800 words.
Being a Special Collaborator and if I wanted to manipulate an average it would be easier to make 200 words reviews to be posted and have multiplied my rating for ten in the charts, but the fact that i take hours to write them (Using a thesaurus because my English is not in a native level) proves I care for my reviews but an accurate rating also helps a lot.
Why (If it's possible of course) shouldn't we try to be more precise? Why should we be accused of trying to manipulate a chart we don't care about?
I dobn't doubt of the honesty of any member only because he/she wants to make this site better with an opinion he believes in, Not only the Collaborators suggestions are worth or deserve to be listened, if somebody believes in something, muust be allowed to say it without having fear of being accused of dishonesty.
If we cared for charts we won't be listening Prog that is never in te top charts of popularity some of us since Prog was extremely unpopular or when everybody else thought it was dead and even reviewing some of the most unknown albums.
If it's possible would be great, if it's not, well we will continue making our reviews as we have done them since we joined the site, but i don't believe recommending something we believe is an improvement is a sin, by the contrary, shows our interest for the site.
Iván
BTW: What about the people who make ratings without reviews because they are not able to write a coherent review in English?
For them the acuracy of a rating is the only way availlable to express what they believe. -------------
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Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 04:41
Sorry, but one or two stars are also "harsh" ... there is no polite way to say that you really don't like an album - or that the recording artists made grave errors or need to practice more. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 06:57
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0 stars was seen as being disrespectful to the artists (as opposed to just harsh). I suspect also that 0 causes more problems with calculations sometimes (but Mike will know better whether that's the case! mailto:M@xs - M@x's reluctance in the past to change the starts have mainly been down to the implications for existing ratings. i.e., do we automatically assume that 5 star reviews remain 5 stars, not 4.5?
Quite a lot of reviewers will say that an album is worth 4.99 stars but not 5, then give 4 stars. Their reviews would look a bit odd if they continued with 4 stars when 4.5 is available.
If there is a strong push from the memebrs for half stars, or 1-10 ratings, I'm sure mailto:M@x - M@x will reconsider. Is that strength of opinion there, or is this more of a nice to have?
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Posted By: Joolz
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 07:31
Not from me ... I am opposed to any change because I believe the current system to be perfectly adequate ... ratings are there as a quick reference, a very rough guide to how the reviewer feels .... if you want more detail then you read the review. The problem with the current system ... apart from the many reviewers who give false ratings [eg 5 stars for non-Prog albums etc] .... is that the 'rating' is used as the basis of the chart. IMO if you want to create a proper chart from members ratings then you need to have a lot more detail .... graded by 100 with different categories like 'progginess', sound quality, enjoyment factor, musical quality, songwriting etc. ... only then will you get a decent chart from it. |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 07:43
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^ I thought about splitting the rating into different aspects and then deriving a combined value ... maybe I'll implement that on my website. But even to me as a certified "Ratingfreak" it seems a little bit over the top. Do you think that reviewers would take the time and fill out such detailed "evaluation forms" for every album they review? ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 07:45
I knew it.... your real name is Nigel T. ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 08:07
I am not happy with the current 5 star rating possibilities and I have given my opinion about it since early 2004 but nothing changes, only the lay out and the things that mailto:M@X - M@X is interested in 
For example: there is too much space between a two star (only for fans) and 3 star (good) and too much space between 4 stars (excellent addition ) and 5 stars (masterpiece). You can be creative with mentioning 3,5 stars of 4,5 stars but this doesn't change the rating that accompanies the review. There should also be a kind of extraordinary rating category (6 stars) for Classic Prog masterpieces like Foxtrot by Genesis or Close To The Edge by Yes because these albums are on an extremely high level, extremely innovative and extremely pivotal.
I have to admit that for me it's harder to think about the rating than to write a review
, perhaps mailto:M@X - M@X reads this thread and is willing to change the rating instead of change again things in the lay out where nobody is waiting for! |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 08:24
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One thing I've been thinking about and which I will definitely implement is that along with the rating the reviewer will be able to assign a level of "importance" to the album: 0: Unimportant 1: only for collectors 2: only useful for fans of the band/artist 3: recommended for fans of the genre 4: essential for fans of the genre 5: absolutely essential ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 08:48
| I'm pretty apathetic on this topic, now. |
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 09:02
ditto from me Bob... the ratings have become some sort of a game, an obsession to some. That should have been obvious when some here wanted to remove live prog albums from the top prog album list. Enough... There is no need to fix what isn't broken... the stars are a guide, a quick reference. What counts is the review itself. ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: Prog-jester
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 09:15
I agree with Eric, but I mostly have problems with 3 stars. Most albums that recieved this rating from me were 2.5 or 3.5 in fact. But giving 2 or 4 stars would be unfair...I'm so confused  .
Half-stars would be a good point IMHO. But it will cause massive re-writing of ALL REVIEWS!!!  That will simply kill PA's normal activity for months
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Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 09:16
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I have the idea that fellow collaborators underestimate how important the ratings and the categories are for all those greedy progheads who visit Prog Archives in order to discover good music: they have to make choices because everyday the homepage is flooded by new reviews and to me it seems that it will only become more because Prog Archives is hot! During my work for Dutch progrock magazines I discovered that the following elements are important for the readers of reviews:
- the name of the reviewer (reliability is very important)
- referring to big names like Pink Floyd, ELP, Genesis, King Crimson and Yes because
these bands they are familiar to and they are often searching for 'prog like Genesis' or
'prog in the vein of ELP', etc.
- the category (there are lots of ardent Prog-metal haters or notorious Neo-prog haters
or progheads who don't like Seventies or vintage keyboards prog.
- the rating only few progheads read all the reviews so they choose to pick up the 4 and
5 star rating, rather than checking out interesting bands with 3 or 3,5 star ratings.
By the way, fellow collaborators, Eric is my USA twin-brother, it's Erik, derived from the Skandinavian Vikings....
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 09:28
and your point is.... no one is calling for removal of the ratings. As I posted earlier...it is no problem to round up or down. I assume we all learned how to do that in school. Have yet to hear a significant difference between a 3 star album and 3.5 star album for example. All you have to do is review an album and give a rating based on 1-5... what is so damn hard about that ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: MikeEnRegalia
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 09:43
yes ... why not reduce the ratings to 0 (bad) and 1 (bad) ... after all, nothing matters anyway. ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/release-polls/pa" rel="nofollow - Release Polls Listened to:
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Posted By: Shakespeare
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 09:47
| "Everything is meaningless," cried the teacher. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 11:04
...and you should see his axe!
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Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 13:35
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FYI, manipulating the ratings was not anything I had in mind...and it is impossible to do for the big albums, anyway.
As stated before I would have most trouble with the 3 star rating...it would be a vacuum for so many albums I'd like the review. And if one were to look at my reviews, they would most likely judge that there all on the same level. Now about mentioning the 3.5 stars really!!! is a good argument...it doesn't really help when I check out someones reviews that I feel I can agree on, because if I want to go by their ratings and they have a lot of reviews there might be a few 5's and decent amount of 4's...but what about the three's...I can just check all of the out and see which say 3.5 really!!! Although I'm not intending to 'manipulate' the ratings...the .5 would make them slighty more accurate and possibly agreeable. |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 14:50
That's a strong point, I agree in this for both reasons, first it's a total disrespect to say someone, what you did in 6 months or a year odf hard work and love means nothing, it's not even worth a star that I can give for free, is a total disrespect.
And it's a problem for rating because an album with nio reviews will havee 0 stars exatcly as an album with 10 reviews and 0 stars and thatt would require a negative rating for the 0 stars average to leave the two in the same plane.
When a studen't gives a test here in Per'u (our system is from 0 to 20), he's got 5 points just for placing his name, I believe just the work and risk of releasing an album in a non profitable genre deserves at least one star, even if the album is terrible, he's helping to keep the genre alive because some people will like it.
1.- t's possible to m,anipulate the ratings ProgBagel, Guigo once told me that the difference between the first five albums is so short that even one rating (Specially if done with review by a Collaborator which is worth ten times a rating without review) may make the difference.
But I don't believe you are trying to manipulate the ratings, talking about our honesty is a total disrespect, even a criminal is considered innocent until is proven guilty.
Why in hell shoyuld people who break their mailto:b@lls - b@lls working for free will want to manipulate the ratings?
Something else, with some extra ratings, the chanvces of manipulating would be less, because you have more variables.
2,. The 2 - 4 stars ratings is where the problem relies, but I prropose:
Maybe the text may change, but having more options, the rating will go parallel to the review, as Bob said I read reviews saying "4.99 so I wiill go with 4 stars" that is contradictory to say the less.
Then why change Art Rock, why add RPI if the system has worked so well that lead us to the first place in the net?
Simply because we want to make it even better, the spirit of superation makes us progress, if we stayed with what works, we will still be using kerosene lamps because at the end light is light.
Those who don't improve are condemned to faillure.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 15:03
| Are you a sage...Iván? |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 15:08
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In Peru, Ivan actually means "The wise man from the mountains, who is the font of knowledge on all things progressive".
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Posted By: Angelo
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 15:43
Or in other words: Progress or perish... Seriously though, I like your proposal Iván, and you brought up a few arguments not mentioned before. However, this does not resolve the huge backlog of existing reviews that would have to be 'fixed'. And worse, I just realised that a lot of reviewers and 'raters-without-review' are not even visiting the site anymore. How would we deal with that??? ------------- http://www.iskcrocks.com" rel="nofollow - ISKC Rock Radio I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
Posted By: andu
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 15:43
I fully agree and support this ^ ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!" 
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Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 16:05
| Can it be a slow process of changing old reviews...like choosing the top reviewers and then down the list? (hierarchy) |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 16:29
| It's really a question of what new rating would the reviewer wish to apply? If they originally gave 4 stars, do they wish it to now be 3.5, 4, or 4.5? |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 16:29
The top reviewers are mostly Collaborators who are able to change the rating.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 16:31
Not exactly, itt means the wise man from the coast
I always lived 5 blocks from the beach until 5 years ago that I live 4 Kms (40 blocks) from the beach.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: bhikkhu
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 23:11
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Does changing an old review really matter that much? If someone is interested in doing so, they will do it. Otherwise the existing rating stands. It would be nice to have the option for future ratings. ------------- a.k.a. H.T. http://riekels.wordpress.com" rel="nofollow - http://riekels.wordpress.com |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 12 2007 at 23:36
The ratings without review are not really a problem, changing a rating is a voluntary act, some may be able or even want to do it (Owners, Adms and Collaborators), the others will stay.
At the end a rating without review can show no contradiction, because the rater has not expressed a single opinion.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: August 13 2007 at 17:45
hahahha.. nice speech Ivan. Being the season of political campaigning youu should consider a career as a politician... when all else fails... lots of slogans, wave the flag and say those who are against you are against the site Sure I'm all for improving the site, when it needs to be improved. This is simple.. and works... Rating :
just what comes between essential and excellent anyway ... let me guess.. almost essential.------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
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Essential: a masterpiece of progressive music
Excellent addition to any prog music collection
Good, but non-essential
Collectors/fans only
Poor. Only for completionistsPosted By: Raff
Date Posted: August 13 2007 at 18:40
| Personally, I am in favour of adding half-star ratings, but only as a way of gilding the lily, so to say. As others have already pointed out, what really should count is the REVIEW, not the rating. When I want to know more about an album prior to buying it, I do look at the overall rating, but I don't certainly stop there - I usually try to read at least a few reviews, especially those coming from consistently reliable reviewers. In fact, a good reviewer will be able to convey what they see as the real value of an album, which includes its being somehow 'more' or 'less' than the rating that appears next to it. |
Posted By: ProgBagel
Date Posted: August 13 2007 at 19:49
Agreed, but how will we differentiate between all the 3's and 4's...the .5 would make a huge difference when checking out the reviews (if there are many). |
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: August 14 2007 at 00:05
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Posted By: ZowieZiggy
Date Posted: October 07 2007 at 19:30
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I am glad I saw this thread before I opened a new one which would have raised the same issue. I have read countless reviews which starts or ends with : 3,5 really or 9 out of ten if I could.
I am often confronted to this problem as well and I would really like to use this half star rating (starting from 0.5). I also wonder what's all the fuss for existing reviews. I am able to edit the text, change the rating as much as I want trough the collaborator link and selecting the according review I want to change (and I could this from the early days of my reviewing process, when I was not a "prog reviewer"). So each individual reviewer could do this. No extra work for the admin team.
If you have written 900 reviews like me, it might take about 450 minutes to do so (considering that I would edit 25 % of them and that I would spend 2 minutes per review).
If I consider the time spent to write the original reviews, it is peanuts. And fewer reviewers have wrote more.
This would be a good effort and makes PA more accurate because as it is now, the reviewing process works by 20% increment which is absolutely not accurate enough.
IMO, it would be a great step ahead, and please don't tell me that it won't change because it has been working like so far.
I konw that this thread has been silent for a while so I just hope someone will read this comment and re-lauch the debate. For the best of PA.
Cheers. ------------- ZowieZiggy |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 19 2007 at 09:08
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Sigh. I guess if the non-word "completionists" can't even be edited after all this time, we shouldn''t expect any more major, constructive change, no matter how long and how many if us have requested it.... Why such resistance to change in this area? You make up and add categories, move bands around, revamp the forum, but still cannot/will not do this, supposedly just because some few have written lots of reviews? So what? Let them slowly edit their ratings, or simply not bother.
Very frustrating, really -- I feel the serious, carefully-reasoned input of myself (and many others) on the ratings issue is perennially undervalued -- if not instantly dismissed out of hand, or simply ignored.
(Look at the way Ivan's post is ridiculed, above ^. Sorry Micky, but your mocking, dismissive reply is plain disrespectful, immature, and unacceptable. I would be offended in Ivan's position.)
So why bother?
 Indeed, why review at all, if a few with power to effect change only follow their own whims, and even persist on attaching something that's NOT EVEN A WORD to MY reviews, against my long-expressed wishes?My thread on the ratings issues was dead within a couple of days -- but pointless A vs B and "best" polls, and even silly juvenile threads about imaginary bands thrive.
It was better here, once. I felt I had a real say in things -- in short, i felt valued, and part of some sort of TEAM. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: October 19 2007 at 09:48
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I'm sure it's been written many times before but the star rating here is built on 5 values that are not necessary co-related wrt semantics nor seem to have comparative weightings.
Rating :
What is essential? I can assure many of the albums rated 5 here are non-essential to me (and no doubt many other people). Masterpiece - how do you interpret that term; originally meant the piece the apprentice made to demonstrate he/she was worthy of joining the guide of masters, more recent the very best that an artist or a craftman has produced - implying masterpieces are in limited supply. A masterpiece is rarely essential. Change the definition here, no ambiquity, no doubling of definitions.
Perhaps excellent addition to any prog collection implies an universality, every person will like the music. However, ever since the walls came down for the inclusion of genres at PA, that stretch commonsense as being prog, then by indicating this value demonstrats an insular arrogance. Change the definition.
Good - do we need any more?
Collectors/fans only : I like ............but wrt attempting to give equal weighting to the 5 categories, I feel at 1 star For completists only it's a tab too close to a 2 star. And again two verbal values for 1 star provides a dilemma. For 1 star: poor, far from their best work or compared to similar band's albums.
How about for 0 star: utter crap or (to tie in with my current thread) or alternatively rip-off.
Peter I agree with much with what you say. I've said it before: one reason prog was so vigorously attacked was because it got intellectiualised so often in the arly days - it atttracted university and collage students. And in those discussion ideas were exchanged , things were learnt, i.e. a fair degree of open-mindedness. So it would good to get a debate going that doesn't result in:
a) nasty personal attacks
b) individuals banging on with their blinkered viewed
c) mindless twandle
instead:
c) considered viewpoints were brought to the forum,
d) people would listen, and occasionally learn and moderate their views.
e) and humour, with some good natured teasing permitted
would be the standard.
That's why I joined PA but it happens less and less nowadays ------------- The best eclectic music on the Web,8-11pm BST/GMT THURS. CLICK ON: http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php - http://www.lborosu.org.uk/media/lcr/live.php Host by PA's Dick Heath. |
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Essential: a masterpiece of progressive music
Excellent addition to any prog music collection
Good, but non-essential
Collectors/fans only
Poor. Only for completionistsPosted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 19 2007 at 10:06
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(Partial) Olive Branch post:
look, i'm not threatening to quit or anything, and I am trying to write some new reviews (it goes very, very slowly. I don't really know why, but the task has become work, not fun -- perhaps because reviews disappear unremarked so quickly), but I can't say I'm not truly frustrated by the eternal, intractable lack of movement on the ratings issues (the generic words, and the stars).
yes, IT'S JUST MUSIC, and yes, i still consider the various powers that be here to be nice, smart people and my friends, but it really irks me to see a long-serving, ultra-dedicated and sincere Collaborator like Ivan being publicly treated here like he was above. (His last post has not even been responded to.) i know Ivan can well speak for himself and defend his own honour, but as his friend, and as someone who often finds himself on the same, ever-losing side on such issues, i am offended and angered on his behalf. I honestly cannot recall ever having seen Ivan treat others (let alone fellow Collabs) in the disrespectful, dismissive manner he has been treated above. he certainly does not laugh (
) at other's serious, carefully considered posts -- now does he?Show respect to earn respect and get it returned -- it is not automatic or some sort of "right" which comes with an elevated position.
 Other than that, have a GROOVY weekend!
 And at least change "completionist" to "completist" -- it's only been there for what -- 3 or 4 YEARS?
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 19 2007 at 10:12
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Thanks for the input, Dick. (i always consider your wise words carefully.)
As an educator, I firmly believe, and must reiterate, that five generic grading descriptions pulled off some list do not say it all (thus dump the words altogether -- let the review speak for itself) and increments of 20% are simply too large to permit very exact grading.
I am hardly alone in thinking this.
TTYL!
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 19 2007 at 14:03
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There are of course many many suggestions made for improving the site. That is how we got where we are today, through the invaluable input of everyone involved. We can't always do everything everyone suggests though. Quite often one person's great idea is another's total disaster for the site. In the case of the ratings, for everyone who wants 1/2 star ratings, there is another who does not, and another who wants marks out of 100 etc. There is no right and wrong here. Likewise, with the words which accompany the stars, there are 101 suggestions what they should be, but no apparent consensus. Everone thinks their solution is best. It must be remembered that the words are for guidance only. I don't believe anyone takes them 100% literally. Everyone has their own modus operandi when it comes to allocating stars. Some do it mathematically, averaging their rating for each track, for some it's an overall feel, for others it is simply an effort to manipulate the overall rating for the album! We are, I think, all intelligent enough to come to our own conclusions based on what we see. Let's not get too obsessed with the words. The other thing i'd mention is that some people spend far more time working for the site than others. It is surely only reasonable that they should be allowed to prioritise what they do as suits them. Everyone will have their own ideas of what is most important, but we have to allow those who do the doing to make their decisions on what gets done first. There are only so many hours in the day, and everyone has a real life too. My personal view is that any change in the wording is not a priority.
I actually remember the discussions on the word "Completionist". It started off as completist, which it was agreed was not a word. After much debate and serious consideration I guess it's a bit like business talk though, completionist and completist are quite widely used in music magazines etc. and thus become words through the constant evolution of the English language (runs for cover now! By the way, mailto:M@x - M@x is working on a new version of the site so expect significant changes soon! |
). I suppose the word "Prog" is not actually right either, my spell checker does not like it! At the end of the day, it's all down to the deregulisation of the bordorisation of language. Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 20 2007 at 01:37
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Thanks Peter, but don't worry, I learned to reply when I'm mentioned but ignore what is not worth of paying attention.
Iván -------------
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 07:52
I guess that's that, then. No half stars (though I thought a majority wanted them), and no updating the "prog-is best" ratings words.
No more suggestions.
 Like many others, I'll continue to review as if half stars were there, though, and to rate non-prog albums as high as i see fit.
Asssuming I ever actually complete any reviews....
Thanks for the response, Bob. (seriously) ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 10:03
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Never say never Peter
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 23 2007 at 18:38
 Isn't that by Romeo Void? Just what are you trying to tell me? I might like you better
If we slept together But there’s somethin In your eyes that says Maybe that’s never Never say never Hmmm... odd song choice, Bob's Yeruncle. Are you trying to suggest there's another, EASYier way to get what we want around here?  ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 24 2007 at 04:06
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Well I'm certainly not "sleeping" with you in order for you to find out!
No hidden message intended, but past experience has shown that things can change and move on quickly in these parts.
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Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: October 24 2007 at 04:28
-------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
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Posted By: Easy Livin
Date Posted: October 24 2007 at 10:08
Love the sig too!
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Posted By: andu
Date Posted: October 24 2007 at 13:39
how about
That's my own scale ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: October 24 2007 at 13:45
Mine as well! Though I've never given a 1-star rating so far... None of the albums I own is so bad that I would give it less than 3. |
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Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: October 24 2007 at 14:05
I like it!
 The words are minimal, as they should be, with prog-specific references removed.
I really feel the need for half stars. I find there are many, many 3-star-range albums, with some marginally stronger efforts (from the same band, for example) that need an ability to reflect that in the rating, but still do not merit an entire 20% jump to the "A" (or 4+) level.As a teacher who daily has to rate writing, and assign grades, I would find a 20-percent increment scale, with five options only, to be very limiting and inadequate.
For academic work, I prefer assigning percentages (via a detailed rubric), where I actually get 101 increments -- which can also be represented as broader letter grades.
For reviewing albums, however, I don't need to be nearly so precise, as we are largely dealing with the subjective, emotional realm, but I still like 10% increments.
(Because, again, I find myself WANTING them when rating -- as do many others, judging by the frequency with which we see reviews that start with something like "3.5 stars, really.")
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
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Posted By: ZowieZiggy
Date Posted: October 26 2007 at 16:30
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I find that 2.5 - "mediocre" is a bit harsh. What about "Not Bad" or something approaching ? At the end of the day it sits just under "good" and "mediocre" does not really show this.
------------- ZowieZiggy |
Posted By: Chris H
Date Posted: October 26 2007 at 16:35
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I don't know if this has been brought up and I don't really feel like looking, but if we do implement .5 star ratings, every reviewer will have to go back and change his/her rating and reviews if they feel and extra .5 star would be justified, and that would be a little time consuming, tiresome and pointless.
Just speaking as a reviewer, and I'm sure the reviwers with 10 times the reviews as me will agree. ------------- Beauty will save the world. 
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Posted By: andu
Date Posted: October 26 2007 at 17:49
Good idea Though "mediocre" does not mean "bad" but is just a synonym for "medium", I would agree on not using it, as it seem to make a bad impression.Anyway, I kinda don't support my own system. Why? It's because that though I trust it a lot and find it precise enough, I know that it has developed only and directly because of the way that the current stars system made me think a lot. The current system is so flexible that it surely stimulates elaboration and creativity into approaching music - I'm sure everybody should take advantage of this. Otherwise, I feel that gaining the .5 option will lead reviewing into searching for motivations for more and more precise ratings, instead of trying to write enlightening reviews. So I use my system for personal purposes and will use it in my reviews, but I wouldn't see it implemented. ------------- "PA's own GI Joe!"
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Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: October 26 2007 at 21:14
What about Bellow Average........It's exactly the same, but sounds less harsh.
But I still continue with my option:
Iván -------------
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Posted By: ZowieZiggy
Date Posted: October 27 2007 at 21:17
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Reply to Zappa88 (whom I salute BTW. Long time we didn't mail each other).
You wrote : "I don't know if this has been brought up and I don't really feel like looking, but if we do implement .5 star ratings, every reviewer will have to go back and change his/her rating and reviews if they feel and extra .5 star would be justified, and that would be a little time consuming, tiresome and pointless".
Just speaking as a reviewer, and I'm sure the reviwers with 10 times the reviews as me will agree.
A few weeks ago, in this same thread I wrote :
"If you have written 900 reviews like me, it might take about 450 minutes to do so (considering that I would edit 25 % of them and that I would spend 2 minutes per review).
If I consider the time spent to write the original reviews, it is peanuts. And fewer reviewers have wrote more".
In the meantime, I am now heading thousand reviews and I still feel the same. I would take advantage of year-end to do this if available. By then, I guess that three days will be needed since I would probably reach 1,200 . But this isn't a problem.
Cheers and god night. It's now 3:15 AM in Belgium. Oh no, only 2 AM (daylight saving time offers me one more hour to sleep. Hurray).
Take care Zappa88.
Daniel. ------------- ZowieZiggy |
Posted By: moreitsythanyou
Date Posted: October 27 2007 at 21:21
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With all the improvements being made, this would trump them all in usefulness. This is necessary and I can't wait until this happens.
-------------  <font color=white>butts, lol[/COLOR] |
Posted By: Fight Club
Date Posted: December 06 2007 at 14:07
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Recently posted in another thread: "Hey when are we finally going to be able to have half-star ratings? There are so many times when I think an album isn't quite a 5 star masterpiece, but deserves more than a 4. So what are we supposed to do about that? I'm sure a lot of other people agree. Plus, I don't know about all of you, but there's so many albums that I really enjoy that I need more than 2 ratings to distinguish ones I think are above the level of "good." ------------- 
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: December 08 2007 at 08:39
in answer to the post....that is what your review itself is for... the stars are guides... the review itself is the means to differentiate those grey areas... half stars won't take out the grey areas... in a year people would be asking for a 20 point rating system because they feel they can't express... with a rating... the difference between a 4.5 and a 5. That is why we write reviews... ------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip |
Posted By: aapatsos
Date Posted: December 08 2007 at 09:09
I believe that the current system is fair enough, even if it does not promote detailed ranking (i.e. 0.5 stars).
I agree to a high extent with this ranking but I think it's ''Good, but not essential'' |
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Posted By: Rivertree
Date Posted: December 08 2007 at 09:18
This is exactly how I'm thinking about it, micky ------------- https://awesomeprog.com/users/Rivertree" rel="nofollow"> |
Posted By: Slartibartfast
Date Posted: December 08 2007 at 09:41
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I've probably said this somewhere before, but it's a little too late to alter the ratings scale as most people use the scale as outlined and would have to go back and re-evaluate their old ratings. People are already free to fractionalize their ratings and add qualifications in the review.
------------- Released date are often when it it impacted you but recorded dates are when it really happened... 
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Posted By: ZowieZiggy
Date Posted: December 09 2007 at 18:41
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Let's get a poll amongst, let's say the hundred most prolific reviewers and see what comes out. At the end of the day, this is a subject which is theirs since "that is why they write reviews".
The question of posted reviews is not important. The ones who want to change them will do so (and I belong to these). It will take several days of my time but it does not really matter since I volunteered to do so.
Once in a while it is good to have other changes than pure cosmetics.
Cheers,
Daniel. ------------- ZowieZiggy |