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Peter 
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Joined: January 31 2004
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 Posted: March 25 2006 at 11:49 |
 (I am speaking only of English-speaking areas now.)
Britain (and Ireland) also produce better dramas, actors that look like normal people, etc.
A much longer tradition of "high" art (especially in literature) than in the colonies was a factor, plus, I think, a less commercial/superficial music/entertainment industry than in the dominant exporter of English-speaking art, the USA, I believe.
Plus, the influence of homegrown American music forms blues, jazz and even country played a major role in how American rock developed. Britain was more closely connected to the classical influences from the continent (and British isles traditional music).
Re Canada, our music output is hugely influenced by our giant southern neighbour.
I believe history and the rural "frontier" mentality (USA, Canada, Australia) vs a long-established, highly-developed largely urban civilization (Britain) played a role, too. 
Those are my considered thoughts on the matter.
Great thread idea, BTW!
Edited by Peter
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Syzygy
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Joined: December 16 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 11:52 |
As enjoyable as this thread is, when it comes to Zeuhl the UK has produced very little, although I'd argue that Guapo's last two albums are Zeuhl. Japan, on the other hand, has a thriving Zeuhl scene.
When it comes to RIO, Henry Cow may have pretty much invented/defined the genre in the 1970s, but the majority of the best bands since have come from either mainland Europe or North America.
So as far as my specialisms go, the UK is pretty insignificant. Mind you, in commercial terms Zeuhl and RIO are pretty much non existent, which maybe proves the point of this thread.
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'Like so many of you
I've got my doubts about how much to contribute
to the already rich among us...'
Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 11:56 |
Blacksword, when you say "the best music," you are making a vast, subjective generalization, and totally ignoring other musical forms like classical, opera (Italy, Germany and even Russia kick Britain's ass there), jazz (America invented it, and dominates, by far), blues (ditto) and country (ditto).
I think you mean "the best progressive rock." If so, I'd agree with you, but suggesting that prog is the "best" music is again entirely subjective, and thus indefensible.
Edited by Peter
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Peter
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 9669
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 12:07 |
 Peter wrote:
Oops! Wrong button! |
Edited by Peter
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Padraic
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Joined: February 16 2006
Location: Pennsylvania
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Points: 31169
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 12:24 |
Just wanted to add that hopefully the American music of the 1950s can
get the credit for "planting the seed", as it were...once the music of
Elvis, Buddy Holly, Chuck Berry, et.al. made its way to the Liverpool
scene and the rest of England, the English devoured it and began their
long journey of not only creating the best 60s rock and roll but going
beyond and eventually giving us prog! Also note the influence of
the old American bluesmen on Zeppelin, Cream, etc.
Rule Britannia!  This "colonial" thanks you.
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elvile
Forum Newbie
Joined: March 24 2005
Status: Offline
Points: 3
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 12:44 |
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well i would say the clear answer is $ , record companies are
either from the us or from britain, obviously bands from both countries
would have more opportunity
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: March 25 2006 at 14:49 |
Peter wrote:
Blacksword, when you say "the best music," you are making a vast, subjective generalization, and totally ignoring other musical forms like classical, opera (Italy, Germany and even Russia kick Britain's ass there), jazz (America invented it, and dominates, by far), blues (ditto) and country (ditto).
I think you mean "the best progressive rock." If so, I'd agree with you, but suggesting that prog is the "best" music is again entirely subjective, and thus indefensible.
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Just to clarify. I was reffering to rock music specifically, and even then I accept that it is subjective. It's MY opinion that the best rock came from Britain.
I would think the majority of fans of prog and classic rock, would agree. I know brilliant rock music is not exclusive to Britain, but we have been very prolific with the stuff, you must admit..
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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Peter
Special Collaborator
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Joined: January 31 2004
Location: Canada
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Posted: March 26 2006 at 00:52 |
Blacksword wrote:
Peter wrote:
Blacksword, when you say "the best music," you are making a vast, subjective generalization, and totally ignoring other musical forms like classical, opera (Italy, Germany and even Russia kick Britain's ass there), jazz (America invented it, and dominates, by far), blues (ditto) and country (ditto).
I think you mean "the best progressive rock." If so, I'd agree with you, but suggesting that prog is the "best" music is again entirely subjective, and thus indefensible.
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Just to clarify. I was reffering to rock music specifically, and even then I accept that it is subjective. It's MY opinion that the best rock came from Britain.
I would think the majority of fans of prog and classic rock, would agree. I know brilliant rock music is not exclusive to Britain, but we have been very prolific with the stuff, you must admit..
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I actually do happen to agree -- my favourite rock has long been British in bulk (Who, Zep, Beatles, Kinks, etc etc), but I am also crazy about many American rock acts (CCR, Velvets/Lou Reed, Tom Verlaine, Los Lobos, Adrian Belew, Zappa, etc etc) and when it comes to blues, jazz, country (not the sh*te you hear on the radio), bluegrass and folk, America clearly dominates -- just as Germany, Italy and the rest of the continent dominate classical, opera, electronica, etc.
BTW, as I too come from a very musical island, I think that some of Britain's high output of great, home-grown music is a factor of (relative) isolation: on an island, one is forced to entertain oneself, as it were.
Edited by Peter
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"And, has thou slain the Jabberwock?
Come to my arms, my beamish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!'
He chortled in his joy.
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Blacksword
Prog Reviewer
Joined: June 22 2004
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 16130
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Posted: March 26 2006 at 02:57 |
Peter wrote:
Blacksword wrote:
Peter wrote:
Blacksword, when you say "the best music," you are making a vast, subjective generalization, and totally ignoring other musical forms like classical, opera (Italy, Germany and even Russia kick Britain's ass there), jazz (America invented it, and dominates, by far), blues (ditto) and country (ditto).
I think you mean "the best progressive rock." If so, I'd agree with you, but suggesting that prog is the "best" music is again entirely subjective, and thus indefensible.
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Just to clarify. I was reffering to rock music specifically, and even then I accept that it is subjective. It's MY opinion that the best rock came from Britain.
I would think the majority of fans of prog and classic rock, would agree. I know brilliant rock music is not exclusive to Britain, but we have been very prolific with the stuff, you must admit..
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I actually do happen to agree -- my favourite rock has long been British in bulk (Who, Zep, Beatles, Kinks, etc etc), but I am also crazy about many American rock acts (CCR, Velvets/Lou Reed, Tom Verlaine, Los Lobos, Adrian Belew, Zappa, etc etc) and when it comes to blues, jazz, country (not the sh*te you hear on the radio), bluegrass and folk, America clearly dominates -- just as Germany, Italy and the rest of the continent dominate classical, opera, electronica, etc.
BTW, as I too come from a very musical island, I think that some of Britain's high output of great, home-grown music is a factor of (relative) isolation: on an island, one is forced to entertain oneself, as it were.
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It's perhaps ironic, that my favourite all time band is actually Canadian!
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Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy!
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VanderGraafKommandöh
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Joined: July 04 2005
Location: Malaria
Status: Offline
Points: 89372
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Posted: March 26 2006 at 03:34 |
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Hmm, good question... it's all to do with demographics.
We're a relatively small country for starters, so a lot of the progressive artists of the late '60s and '70s toured with each other, so they'd have thrown ideas off each other, as well been influenced by each other.
It's also to do with culture and again, that is related to the size of our country. Bands can cover a lot less distance over here and influence spreads. I would say in America, smaller bands are probably likely to be popular within a certain state and unless they become popular, their music is likely to stay within that state (obviously some will overlap states). In the modern age however, with the Internet revolution, bands can spread their music across the globe a lot easier.
And because American is such a big country, there are not enough records producers to go around, there are only a certain amount of major labels and they won't want to waste their money on too many bands/musicians, who invariably, could sound similar to each other.
The other major point, I believe, is related to education, not only of the listeners, but of the performers. A lot of prog musicians have good qualifications from Universities and are also more likely to rebel and be free thinkers and try new things all the time.
As others have said, it's also a language thing, English/American English/Canadian English is always going to be more popular than German/French/Spanish/Italian, et al., bands.
I am sure there are other important factors I have missed and of course, people will disagree with the above, that's expected.
Oh and one more thing, drugs seem to have made an important contribution. Yes, I know Americans took a lot of drugs in their day as well, but of course, it depended on the area they lived in, religious backgrounds, etc.
There a lot of things to consider.
Can somebody answer this:
If, we are indeed the leader of music in europe, are we so bad at the Eurovision Song Contest?
Not that I care, it's always a laugh and not serious.
I can answer that question partially: politics.
Note to Drakken Theaker: I think you'll find the turbojet engine was first made by the Germans, at least in production terms anyhow.
Edited by Geck0
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richardh
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Joined: February 18 2004
Location: United Kingdom
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Points: 29670
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Posted: March 27 2006 at 01:54 |
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Before The Beatles there was a lack of really great British rock/pop bands.The Beatles were a massive phenomenon that gave momentum to British bands that followed.Having English as the native tongue is obviously important but in terms of Britain overtaking America then The Beatles were the biggest reason.
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sleeper
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Joined: October 09 2005
Location: Entropia
Status: Offline
Points: 16449
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Posted: March 27 2006 at 03:33 |
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Geck0- The reason that we do badly at the EU song contest is politics, and its the same for the other large countries France, Germany, Italy and Spain. Its not to say that our performers are any worse than there's (there all terrible) its just that all the small countries vote for each other.
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Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005
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Drachen Theaker
Forum Senior Member
Joined: April 22 2005
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 376
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Posted: March 27 2006 at 08:30 |
Geck0 wrote:
Hmm, good question... it's all to do with demographics.
We're a relatively small country for starters, so a lot of the progressive artists of the late '60s and '70s toured with each other, so they'd have thrown ideas off each other, as well been influenced by each other.
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True. A lot of the British bands socialised at the same clubs in London - the Speakeasy, La Chasse, The Marquee, and so could 'feed off' each other in this hot-house atmosphere more than the geographically dispersed US bands could.
Geck0 wrote:
Note to Drakken Theaker: I think you'll find the turbojet engine was first made by the Germans, at least in production terms anyhow.
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An arguable point. The first jet engine was patented in the UK in 1930 - five or six years ahead of Germany. Of course the Brits being British and the Germans being German, they got theirs to fly quicker than ours - which illustrates my other point about the UK being crap at capaitalising on its inventions. 
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"It's 1973, almost dinnertime and I'm 'aving 'oops!" - Gene Hunt
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Paulieg
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Joined: June 18 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 934
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Posted: March 27 2006 at 09:07 |
I think the Vietnam war had something to do with it too. A lot of prospective American musicians were getting killed or their minds ruined by that conflict, police activity, war in my book. Also, Britain has so much more history than us in America. We've been around only for a couple hundred years, as a country. Britain's history goes back well over a thousand years, in comparison. I think this has more to do with it than anything. History is very important and bands like Genesis used it too great effect. So many great composers came out of Britians long history and America, in comparison, has far less to be influenced by. Just my humble thoughts. 
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Chicapah
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Joined: February 14 2006
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 8238
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Posted: March 27 2006 at 15:56 |
Peter wrote:
(I am speaking only of English-speaking areas now.)
Britain (and Ireland) also produce better dramas, actors that look like normal people, etc.
A much longer tradition of "high" art (especially in literature) than in the colonies was a factor, plus, I think, a less commercial/superficial music/entertainment industry than in the dominant exporter of English-speaking art, the USA, I believe.
Plus, the influence of homegrown American music forms blues, jazz and even country played a major role in how American rock developed. Britain was more closely connected to the classical influences from the continent (and British isles traditional music).
Re Canada, our music output is hugely influenced by our giant southern neighbour.
I believe history and the rural "frontier" mentality (USA, Canada, Australia) vs a long-established, highly-developed largely urban civilization (Britain) played a role, too.
Those are my considered thoughts on the matter.
Great thread idea, BTW!
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I agree with this intelligent statement. I would add that the US audiences were in no way as tolerant of experimental music as the Brits. For a fledgling band in the states to support themselves they had to play dance music exclusively or they just didn't get work. Anything veering away from the accepted 4/4 beat was met with disdain and worse. From what I've read the audiences in England were more willing to listen with an open mind. When a band had to spend most of its rehearsal time in working up the newest Doobie Brothers hit single it definitely took away from the creativity needed to push the progressive envelope. The American culture would/could not support prog.
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"Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain
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Dr. Occulator
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Joined: March 04 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 634
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Posted: March 27 2006 at 16:31 |
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I think Britain being more closely aligned with the true European
classical (Bach, Beethoven Mozart, Haydn) etc. had become open to more
creative experimental music and as a whole are more exposed to more
variety than the traditional top 40 radio formula commercialized in the
U.S.
I think it became a huge watershed of originality that the U.S. have
not even come close to achieving. Also IMO Canada, although a smaller
population, has a much more diverse and burgeoning music scene than the
States. Maybe it's the British influence.
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My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head.
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Firepuck
Forum Senior Member
Joined: February 28 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 657
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Posted: March 27 2006 at 16:44 |
Dr. Occulator wrote:
I think Britain being more closely aligned with the true European classical (Bach, Beethoven Mozart, Haydn) etc. had become open to more creative experimental music and as a whole are more exposed to more variety than the traditional top 40 radio formula commercialized in the U.S.
I think it became a huge watershed of originality that the U.S. have not even come close to achieving. Also IMO Canada, although a smaller population, has a much more diverse and burgeoning music scene than the States. Maybe it's the British influence.
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I think the French influence has helped the progressive rock scene in Canada, it's heart seems to be in Quebec.
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Kryten : "'Pub'? Ah yes, A meeting place where humans attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks."
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Dr. Occulator
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Joined: March 04 2006
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
Points: 634
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Posted: March 27 2006 at 17:28 |
Firepuck wrote:
Dr. Occulator wrote:
I think Britain being more
closely aligned with the true European classical (Bach, Beethoven
Mozart, Haydn) etc. had become open to more creative experimental music
and as a whole are more exposed to more variety than the traditional
top 40 radio formula commercialized in the U.S.
I think it became a huge watershed of originality that the U.S. have not even come close to achieving. Also IMO Canada, although a smaller population, has a much more diverse and burgeoning music scene than the States. Maybe it's the British influence.
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I think the French influence has helped the progressive rock scene in Canada, it's heart seems to be in Quebec. |
Don't know how much Quebec is actually influenced by France. I think
it's more a French-Canadian thing being into the experimental &
prog. I agree Quebec has the majority of new prog bands in Canada.Love the whole rich & lively French-Canadian culture.
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My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head.
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mystic fred
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Joined: March 13 2006
Location: Londinium
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Posted: March 28 2006 at 10:26 |
stechell wrote:
I've always wondered why do the British Isles produce so many great Prog bands (and mainstream too). I don't have a clue. Do you?? |
i think it must be something in the water.....?
Edited by mystic fred
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 Prog Archives Tour Van 
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The Wizard
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Joined: July 18 2005
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7341
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Posted: March 28 2006 at 10:52 |
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Sometimes I wish I was British.
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