Britain and Prog
Printed From: Progarchives.com
Category: Progressive Music Lounges
Forum Name: Prog Bands, Artists and Genres Appreciation
Forum Description: Discuss specific prog bands and their members or a specific sub-genre
URL: http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20662
Printed Date: March 10 2025 at 19:31
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 11.01 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Britain and Prog
Posted By: stechell
Subject: Britain and Prog
Date Posted: March 22 2006 at 21:20
I've always wondered why do the British Isles produce so many great Prog bands (and mainstream too). I don't have a clue. Do you?? 
|
Replies:
Posted By: Bern
Date Posted: March 22 2006 at 21:29
|
Maybe because they sang in English and it's universal so they could reach a lot of people. I'm just saying this to defend to millions of GREAT bands who didn't sing in english and couldn't reach international success
-------------  
RIP in bossa nova heaven. |
Posted By: kebjourman
Date Posted: March 22 2006 at 21:33
|
alot of american bands sang in english
i cant even think of a single american prog band though so nevermind |
Posted By: stechell
Date Posted: March 22 2006 at 21:33
|
I don't mean other geographical areas don't produce great Prog, but why most 1st division prog is British??...does the weather plays any special role??? |
Bern wrote:
Posted By: Bern
Date Posted: March 22 2006 at 21:37
I knew that  I was just promoting other prog because I really can't answer your question -------------
RIP in bossa nova heaven. |
Posted By: chopper
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 07:29
|
Not really, but it's not just great prog bands. Most of the world's top bands are either British, Irish or American, so perhaps it is a language thing. |
Posted By: ¢¾Old¢¾Hen¢¾
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 07:42
|
because .. we have elegance probably :) and lots of forests.
------------- 
~*~ 
.Fear.Is.No.Excuse. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 08:03
|
The best music has always come from Great Britain, prog or otherwise IMO. It's one of the few things we're any good at. I have no idea why we consistently turned out so many world conquering bands. A sample of Britains Rock premier league... Genesis In terms of record sales, global recognition and general success, can anyone name a country that has produced more world class acts? ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 08:05
|
English are talented to create nice melodies.
I think that's what makes the difference. If you compare the different prog schools, you'll notice that german and french i.e are far more into the psychedelic/experimental side while english are more symphonic. (At least, i allude to the guenuine french/german bands, not the ones which try to copy the english bands). And symphonic is the most melodic and accessible genre -and so the most succesful- in prog. There's also the jazzy side from Canterbury school, which quite accessible (Caravan) I don't speak about the free side (Wyatt/the end of an ear i.e). |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 08:09
Indeed, you are talented for music, but "Iron Maiden Judas Priest Motorhead U2 Radiohead" do not belong to the good ones IMO! |
Posted By: Machinemessiah
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 08:12
I think we might start a sub-topic on this: If you had a cauldron like those of the druids, what ingredients would conform good Progressive music? We already have elegance and forests... Can you think of others?
|
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 08:14
| I would put magic plants inside the cauldron... |
Posted By: Machinemessiah
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 08:23
|
I think that would be the main ingredient! I would throw in too
|
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 08:29
...a little mysticism
|
Posted By: ¢¾Old¢¾Hen¢¾
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 08:57
|
Stonehedge :) sherwood forest .. Um .. Snobby universities :) and private schools. :X
-------------
~*~
.Fear.Is.No.Excuse. |
Posted By: Machinemessiah
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 09:07
|
-Some kings and queens... Excalibur, Robin Hood... |
Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 09:17
|
It's a PHENOMENON! To try to give a proper answer to that you need to convey deep and thorough scientific researches, taking into account thousands of factors which might have had their influence on this subject. Otherwise, we can only guess. And another thing which is bothering me from time to time: why had Russia been producing the greatest litterature in the world, and not only over certain period of time, but since after the appearance of written language uptill nowadays??? ------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: Vi0LaToR
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 09:20
|
UK roolz above all well.. how many bands of rest of the world are considered really good? maybe 20?....30?  well.. how many bands of UK are considered really good? 200...300?  |
Posted By: Rosescar
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 14:01
|
Why was Great Britain the largest empire ever?
------------- http://www.soundclick.com/rosescar/ - My music! "THE AUDIENCE WERE generally drugged. (In Holland, always)." - Robert Fripp |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 14:46
I agree. I was going more for quantity rather than quality with regard to these bands. They are all multi-platinum selling rock bands, who have been going for 10 years plus.. That was really my loose criteria.. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: daz2112
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 14:53
I could'nt of put it better myself!!! ------------- In the constellation of cygnus,There lurks a mysterious force...The black hole |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 14:58
Thankyou! Although I apologise to any Irish forumers. U2 are NOT British.. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
You have to take the credit for them.Posted By: Dr Know
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 16:23
In the 70´s Britain produced the greatest bands, whatever happened? Now we have bands like Coldplay and Radiohead
|
Posted By: Vi0LaToR
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 18:25
... what bands produced Usa in 70´s? and what bands have we now? |
Posted By: Dr Know
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 18:49
|
Violator, what I meant was there were great bands that came out of Britain in the 70´s, Floyd, Rainbow etc.. But nowadays there are bands like The Darkness and Coldplay, nothing really ground-breakingly new. |
Posted By: erik neuteboom
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 18:49
|
It's remarkable that the first progressive rock wave (Genesis, ELP, Yes, Pink Floyd, King Crimson, etc.) in the early Seventies and the neo-progressive rock (Marillion, IQ, Twelfth Night) in the early Eighties were rooted in the UK, both turned out to be very pivotal and commercially successfull! What could be the reason? Perhaps the huge possibilities to play gigs (the UK has a very vivid circuit that started in the Sixties) along with the good musical training and strong determination to become a professional musician. I don't think that the UK progrock musicians were better or more creative than in Italy, Peru, Japan or the USA but the entire scene was very prolific and gave the opportunity to bands like Genesis, Yes, ELP and King Crimson to mature. So it was the right time and the right place along with some other elements, in my opinion. |
Posted By: el böthy
Date Posted: March 23 2006 at 21:05
...Kenya? ------------- "You want me to play what, Robert?" 
|
Posted By: darren
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 01:35
|
I think the UK's reason for all that prog is simply the school system from post-war to about the mid-sixties. The emphasis was on classical music, classical poetry, mythology and renaisance art. If you were brought up in this environment, it's got to affect you somehow. Just mix the symphonic approach to music, British invasion rock and roll, American psychedelia and a heavy influence of classical poetry. Sound reasonable? This is just my guess. ------------- "they locked up a man who wanted to rule the world. the fools they locked up the wrong man." - Leonard Cohen |
Posted By: stechell
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 02:20
|
OK I started the topic and will give my opinion. Asked my Brit parents this question (should have started doing this!! After several minutes of thinking they told me..."just because we've been always the first to change any existing schemes and being the first gives you the advantage of going one or two steps ahead". In terms of Prog, maybe they are right. The first to change Rock's image were The Beatles, then The Rolling Stones. When the world started to copy the British model, they decided to mix classical influence with Rock. Prog was born. Later, Punk appeared. Punk ruled the market until again they mixed it with Reggae, The Police appeared and the world got crazy and so on.... Do you agree with this??
|
Posted By: Drachen Theaker
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 03:25
Britain has always been good at doing things first - jet engines, the internet, parliamentary democracy, tea bags etc (although not very good at making money from it!) In the 60s I think UK musicians were in a unique position. A whole generation (The Beatles, Stones, Page, Clapton, plus proggers like Yes, Genesis, ELP) had grown up listening to US rock & roll, jazz, blues etc. They also had the European classical tradition close at hand to influence them. I read a quote from John Wetton where he said they basically fused these two elements together and made it into dynamite. So I think that's how the UK produced so many successful bands. ------------- "It's 1973, almost dinnertime and I'm 'aving 'oops!" - Gene Hunt |
Posted By: ¢¾Old¢¾Hen¢¾
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 07:06
|
I hate the darkness. Bunch of Queen wannabes.
-------------
~*~
.Fear.Is.No.Excuse. |
Posted By: oliverstoned
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 07:12
Yes and no. I think english were overall talented to make this new musical directions popular. But talking about prog specifically, i think german were somehow more inventive, but far less commercial. |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 12:21
hmmmmmmmm, you see, I think most UK prog bands would agree here, that the live circuit is FAR more vivid the other side of the channel! Getting brits off their bums to go to a gig can be hard work! Musical training? Well, almost all the musicans I know have NO formal musical training, they are self taught......... which I guess is where the determination comes in! What makes the Brits more determined? I dunno, I think historically we've always been a stubborn bunch.......... but the live scene is definately more energised in holland, Germany, Italy etc etc...... P-C x |
Posted By: Wilcey
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 12:23
|
also, I must agree with ¢¾Old¢¾Hen¢¾, The
Darkness STINK!  P-C x
|
Posted By: eugene
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 12:24
|
Yes, Brits were always good at doing and inventing things first, but they are not so good in maintaining their prime position in anything they invented or introduced to the rest of the world. Just thinking about sports at the moment - football, tennis, and snooker - the latter is just unbelievable - UK snooker champion is Chinese gentleman. And what happened to the Empire where sun never sets down? - it is not there anymore.... ------------- carefulwiththataxe |
Posted By: Space Dimentia
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 12:59
|
The answer is pure and simple: WE ARE ENGLISH! We INVNTED heavy rock/blues, heavy metal, prog-rock. We invented it all so naturally it we would be able to push/build up bands that are more mainstream. Everyone else just tagged along. The Empire has nothing to do with it, sport has nothing to do with it (all though I agree yes with the sport factor), but musically I still think we are up in the lofty hieghts of joint first with America. The scene though is differnet here, yes going out and playing live is important to get noticed but its not as essential or more important as in the US music scene which is why generally US bands have a better 'stage presence' then UK bands but here we place more importance on albums then live proformace which is why generally the Birts made/make better albums Like I said we invented Rock and the majority of its sub-genres so Rule Britainnia! Magna Britainnia!
------------- Prog is music for the mind Hear your Orphaned child! Check out my bands myspace site: www.myspace.com/equinox17 |
Posted By: Machinemessiah
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 17:00
|
Can any of your british excellencies ask this question to Peter Gabriel for me please??? Thank you very much!!!!
...by the way, Is there someone that really can? |
Posted By: White Queen
Date Posted: March 24 2006 at 17:30
|
Why don't Bits sing with accents?Ive always wondered...
|
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 11:33
|
Many do, actually. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 11:46
|
And one very long answer to the original question of this thread has been tackled in detail by American Ed McCan in his prog book/thesis Rocking The Classics (OUPress) |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 11:49
|
Britain (and Ireland) also produce better dramas, actors that look like normal people, etc. A much longer tradition of "high" art (especially in literature) than in the colonies was a factor, plus, I think, a less commercial/superficial music/entertainment industry than in the dominant exporter of English-speaking art, the USA, I believe. Plus, the influence of homegrown American music forms blues, jazz and even country played a major role in how American rock developed. Britain was more closely connected to the classical influences from the continent (and British isles traditional music). Re Canada, our music output is hugely influenced by our giant southern neighbour. I believe history and the rural "frontier" mentality (USA, Canada, Australia) vs a long-established, highly-developed largely urban civilization (Britain) played a role, too. Those are my considered thoughts on the matter. Great thread idea, BTW! ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
(I am speaking only of English-speaking areas now.)
Posted By: Syzygy
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 11:52
|
As enjoyable as this thread is, when it comes to Zeuhl the UK has produced very little, although I'd argue that Guapo's last two albums are Zeuhl. Japan, on the other hand, has a thriving Zeuhl scene. When it comes to RIO, Henry Cow may have pretty much invented/defined the genre in the 1970s, but the majority of the best bands since have come from either mainland Europe or North America. So as far as my specialisms go, the UK is pretty insignificant. Mind you, in commercial terms Zeuhl and RIO are pretty much non existent, which maybe proves the point of this thread. ------------- 'Like so many of you I've got my doubts about how much to contribute to the already rich among us...' Robert Wyatt, Gloria Gloom |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 11:56
I think you mean "the best progressive rock." If so, I'd agree with you, but suggesting that prog is the "best" music is again entirely subjective, and thus indefensible. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 12:07
|
------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 12:24
|
Just wanted to add that hopefully the American music of the 1950s can
get the credit for "planting the seed", as it were...once the music of
Elvis, Buddy Holly, Chuck Berry, et.al. made its way to the Liverpool
scene and the rest of England, the English devoured it and began their
long journey of not only creating the best 60s rock and roll but going
beyond and eventually giving us prog! Also note the influence of
the old American bluesmen on Zeppelin, Cream, etc. Rule Britannia! This "colonial" thanks you. |
Posted By: elvile
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 12:44
|
well i would say the clear answer is $ , record companies are
either from the us or from britain, obviously bands from both countries would have more opportunity |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 25 2006 at 14:49
Just to clarify. I was reffering to rock music specifically, and even then I accept that it is subjective. It's MY opinion that the best rock came from Britain. I would think the majority of fans of prog and classic rock, would agree. I know brilliant rock music is not exclusive to Britain, but we have been very prolific with the stuff, you must admit.. ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: Peter
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 00:52
BTW, as I too come from a very musical island, I think that some of Britain's high output of great, home-grown music is a factor of (relative) isolation: on an island, one is forced to entertain oneself, as it were. ------------- "And, has thou slain the Jabberwock? Come to my arms, my beamish boy! O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!' He chortled in his joy. |
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 02:57
It's perhaps ironic, that my favourite all time band is actually Canadian! ------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: VanderGraafKommandöh
Date Posted: March 26 2006 at 03:34
|
Hmm, good question... it's all to do with demographics. We're a relatively small country for starters, so a lot of the progressive artists of the late '60s and '70s toured with each other, so they'd have thrown ideas off each other, as well been influenced by each other. It's also to do with culture and again, that is related to the size of our country. Bands can cover a lot less distance over here and influence spreads. I would say in America, smaller bands are probably likely to be popular within a certain state and unless they become popular, their music is likely to stay within that state (obviously some will overlap states). In the modern age however, with the Internet revolution, bands can spread their music across the globe a lot easier. And because American is such a big country, there are not enough records producers to go around, there are only a certain amount of major labels and they won't want to waste their money on too many bands/musicians, who invariably, could sound similar to each other. The other major point, I believe, is related to education, not only of the listeners, but of the performers. A lot of prog musicians have good qualifications from Universities and are also more likely to rebel and be free thinkers and try new things all the time. As others have said, it's also a language thing, English/American English/Canadian English is always going to be more popular than German/French/Spanish/Italian, et al., bands. I am sure there are other important factors I have missed and of course, people will disagree with the above, that's expected. Oh and one more thing, drugs seem to have made an important contribution. Yes, I know Americans took a lot of drugs in their day as well, but of course, it depended on the area they lived in, religious backgrounds, etc. There a lot of things to consider. Can somebody answer this: If, we are indeed the leader of music in europe, are we so bad at the Eurovision Song Contest? Not that I care, it's always a laugh and not serious. I can answer that question partially: politics. Note to Drakken Theaker: I think you'll find the turbojet engine was first made by the Germans, at least in production terms anyhow. -------------   
|
Posted By: richardh
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 01:54
| Before The Beatles there was a lack of really great British rock/pop bands.The Beatles were a massive phenomenon that gave momentum to British bands that followed.Having English as the native tongue is obviously important but in terms of Britain overtaking America then The Beatles were the biggest reason. |
Posted By: sleeper
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 03:33
|
Geck0- The reason that we do badly at the EU song contest is politics, and its the same for the other large countries France, Germany, Italy and Spain. Its not to say that our performers are any worse than there's (there all terrible) its just that all the small countries vote for each other. ------------- Spending more than I should on Prog since 2005 
|
Posted By: Drachen Theaker
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 08:30
|
True. A lot of the British bands socialised at the same clubs in London - the Speakeasy, La Chasse, The Marquee, and so could 'feed off' each other in this hot-house atmosphere more than the geographically dispersed US bands could.
An arguable point. The first jet engine was patented in the UK in 1930 - five or six years ahead of Germany. Of course the Brits being British and the Germans being German, they got theirs to fly quicker than ours - which illustrates my other point about the UK being crap at capaitalising on its inventions.  ------------- "It's 1973, almost dinnertime and I'm 'aving 'oops!" - Gene Hunt |
Posted By: Paulieg
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 09:07
|
I think the Vietnam war had something to do with it too. A lot of prospective American musicians were getting killed or their minds ruined by that conflict, police activity, war in my book. Also, Britain has so much more history than us in America. We've been around only for a couple hundred years, as a country. Britain's history goes back well over a thousand years, in comparison. I think this has more to do with it than anything. History is very important and bands like Genesis used it too great effect. So many great composers came out of Britians long history and America, in comparison, has far less to be influenced by. Just my humble thoughts.
|
Posted By: Chicapah
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 15:56
I agree with this intelligent statement. I would add that the US audiences were in no way as tolerant of experimental music as the Brits. For a fledgling band in the states to support themselves they had to play dance music exclusively or they just didn't get work. Anything veering away from the accepted 4/4 beat was met with disdain and worse. From what I've read the audiences in England were more willing to listen with an open mind. When a band had to spend most of its rehearsal time in working up the newest Doobie Brothers hit single it definitely took away from the creativity needed to push the progressive envelope. The American culture would/could not support prog. ------------- "Literature is well enough, as a time-passer, and for the improvement and general elevation and purification of mankind, but it has no practical value" - Mark Twain |
Posted By: Dr. Occulator
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 16:31
|
I think Britain being more closely aligned with the true European
classical (Bach, Beethoven Mozart, Haydn) etc. had become open to more
creative experimental music and as a whole are more exposed to more
variety than the traditional top 40 radio formula commercialized in the
U.S. I think it became a huge watershed of originality that the U.S. have not even come close to achieving. Also IMO Canada, although a smaller population, has a much more diverse and burgeoning music scene than the States. Maybe it's the British influence. ------------- My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head. |
Posted By: Firepuck
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 16:44
|
I think the French influence has helped the progressive rock scene in Canada, it's heart seems to be in Quebec. ------------- Kryten : "'Pub'? Ah yes, A meeting place where humans attempt to achieve advanced states of mental incompetence by the repeated consumption of fermented vegetable drinks." |
Posted By: Dr. Occulator
Date Posted: March 27 2006 at 17:28
Don't know how much Quebec is actually influenced by France. I think it's more a French-Canadian thing being into the experimental & prog. I agree Quebec has the majority of new prog bands in Canada.Love the whole rich & lively French-Canadian culture. ------------- My Doc Told Me I Have Doggie Head. |
Posted By: mystic fred
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 10:26
|
i think it must be something in the water.....? -------------  Prog Archives Tour Van 
|
Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 10:52
|
Sometimes I wish I was British. -------------  
|
Posted By: Blacksword
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 11:24
|
Why would you wish that? Because we arguably make better prog? Be proud of where you come from, mate Besides, a lot of great music has come from the US: The Doors, The Byrds, Jefferson Airplane, Aerosmith (70's) Van Halen, Kansas, Zappa, The Pixies, Mountain, Talking Heads..etc..
------------- Ultimately bored by endless ecstasy! |
Posted By: stechell
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 11:41
|
An American wishing that??....
|
Posted By: bluetailfly
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 11:55
|
Macan's "Rocking the Classics" really explores at this question well. But, in my opinion, it partly has to do with the fact that England is an island, and a rather developed one at that. It's like a hot house, where musical ideas reach critical mass quickly, where the competitive pressure is more intense. So out of that bubbling cauldron of musical ideas, energy, egos, and sexuality, out of that emerges a Yes, a Genesis, an ELP, a Led Zeppelin, and then they come over to America and blow away our laid back and slow-witted minds. ------------- "The red polygon's only desire / is to get to the blue triangle." |
Posted By: Dick Heath
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 12:36
|
Oddly enough with the exception of ?????, the 20th century seems to be the only century of "great " British serious composers, (e.g. Elgar, Holst, Vaughan Williams - who all died in the same year of the 30's - Britten, Tippett (Keith's uncle), Walton), otherwise there was a lot of borrowing from Germany, e.g. Handel, Mendelssohn. There is a temptation is to mention 17th Century Purcell, but having been told as a kid he wrote The Trumpet Voluntary - there now seem to be arguments! |
Posted By: Zepology101
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 16:09
I mean, they have Led Zeppelin, The Who, Yes, Pink Floyd, ect. ENGLAND ROCKS! ------------- 
|
Posted By: Zepology101
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 16:11
-------------
|
Posted By: Tony Fisher
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 16:24
You should never have signed that Declaration of Independence, should you?? |
Posted By: Frasse
Date Posted: March 28 2006 at 16:32
|
And like Obelix, Britannia fell in the magic cauldron, only this time, it was the magic caudon of prog-rock, and Britannia became the best at progrock, forever. So there. Now you have a myth about it all. Myths are funnier than reality. |
Posted By: The Wizard
Date Posted: March 30 2006 at 14:08
|
-------------
|
Posted By: Zepology101
Date Posted: March 30 2006 at 15:20
-------------
|