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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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Eh? Surely by now you know how this site works. The Admin team comprises of seven people - three of them play no active part in the day to day operation of the site - they consist of the owner and two others and their only concern is the mechanics of the site. The remaining four deal with site content, membership, discipline and all the interpersonal crap, so let's call them "Mods" for the purposes of this post just to avoid confusion. Those two halves hardly ever talk to each other, (In four years as a "Mod" I conversed with Max maybe three times, Rony once and once with Philippe). The "Mods" are responsible for the "management" of the collaborators, especially those on the subgenre teams, they have no "power" to affect the decisions of those collab teams, and similarly the collab teams have no say in how the "Mods" do their job. As Madan said, this is no different to how any large company works - you have a board of directors who delegate day-to-day authority and responsibility to a non-elected senior management team and they in turn delegate down to subordinate management teams for the management of specific tasks and/or operational areas. Each level works autonomously and usually without hindrance and interference from above (or below). I don't know how the four "Mods" currently work but in the past we seldom worked on a democratic majority vote basis, it was simply too impractical to do that - we worked on trust, delegated-authority and joint-responsibility. Essentially each "Mod" was given the authority to act on behalf of the whole Admin Team, and once that action had been taken then the other "Mods" had an obligated responsibility to support that decision in public. Basically I trusted my colleagues to make the right decision and backed them up if and when required, and I knew I could rely on them to do the same for me. This may appear to be a strange concept for a so-called "collaborative" website, and to the outside world will look very democratic, but for example when I deleted 1,000s of "bogus" reviews and ratings it would have been impossible for us to have taken a democratic vote on each and every one beforehand. What this meant was my actions were taken on behalf of the team, and to do that my decisions had to be balanced and carefully considered - devoid of personal emotion, predilections, prejudices and therefore completely unbiased. Yup - that was (and still is) my special superpower - I could separate the personal feelings that I post here as an ordinary person from the decisions I had to make on behalf of the Admin Team and the site. Not everyone can do that, this is why not everyone has what it takes to be a "Mod". HOWEVER, if an issue was raised in the AZ (such as Keishiro said here), it was discussed and if there were no objections from other "Mods" then an action was taken. Sure we would gauge public opinion, but that would have to be balanced with our responsibility for the site as a whole. There would not be a vote, but each "Mod" had a kinda soft-veto in that if they objected then the action would not be taken and a different solution would be sort. PS: In this case, the matter was taken to the AZ and the review subsequently got deleted, all very "lawful", correct and aboveboard, ... and most of all unbiased. Edited by Dean - October 02 2015 at 04:11 |
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Kati
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 10 2010 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
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Dean, that review cannot be compared to bogus reviews, you surely know this, I know you this too. You guys discussed it between you and it's final, I accept it however me discussing this matter should be allowed and accepted too even it is irrelevant because that review already has been deleted.
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Dean
Special Collaborator Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
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1. I wasn't making any comparison between that review and bogus reviews, I simply gave an example of an unilateral Admin decision to illustrate that this is not necessarily a democratic process. 2. Know you how I that you to me this you too. [*hic*] 3. I'm not an Admin, it's deletion was nothing to do with me, I just expressed my opinion, just like you did and just like Angelo, who is also no longer an admin, did. 4. No one is stopping you discussing it. |
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Angelo
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
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This almost got lost in a storm here.
As well as this valid reaction. However, after my report, and the mention of this by Thomas Thielen and Colin Tench on Facebook this one is quite obvious: http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=56611 He had only a review for T, and after this got raised, he suddenly puts in reviews that write down Steven Wilson, Nemo and Corvus Stone. It's a different member than the one mentioned above, but here I see happening exactly what David Danish Guldbamsen refers to... I know from experience that cleaning up something like this is a mess, but this is wrong - and clearly Thomas Thielen is not happy about it either, so I'd say some action is in order.
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20239 |
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Kati, AFAIR, Easy Livin was the only Admin to ever have found the time post reviews regularly... As the ex-reviewing champ on site, I can totally understand Admins who have no time or simply don't want to write reviews... While I've had issues with some of them Admins over my 11 years, I never doubted a moment of their drive and care for this place. They got to that position because the majority of us (collabs and owners) have trust in them... So if a review gets taken out, so be it... Should it be one of mine, I will accept it (I've got a few turds out there)... They've even undone once some work I had done for the site: I've even had an album (added by me) removed : Winwood's first solo album, filled with Traffic members >> so be it!! Believe me (BTW, Though asked a couple of times, I was a never an Admin, precisely because it's time consuming, sometimes unpleasant and thankless job), Admin is tiresome position and they don't have any advantages... like reviewers or collabs, they don't get paid. Dean explained how the site and admin team work... It's fine with me. As it should be for anyone. EDIT: oooops, I forgot: Edited by Sean Trane - October 02 2015 at 08:09 |
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Kati
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 10 2010 Location: Earth Status: Offline Points: 6253 |
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Sean, hahaha love your oops and right back and front to you I understand what you say however in my head I still find it difficult to comprehend the logic concerning the hype around that review. My indifference of opinion does not matter anyway, however I do accept the final outcome and this is ok too. Although, I think it's all very silly and funny
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Sean Trane
Special Collaborator Prog Folk Joined: April 29 2004 Location: Heart of Europe Status: Offline Points: 20239 |
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from what I gather from both review threads and the PA status thread, much of that "hype" is due to your input EDIt: does a kiss make it better than a hug?? Edited by Sean Trane - October 02 2015 at 08:52 |
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lucas
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator Joined: February 06 2004 Location: France Status: Offline Points: 8138 |
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Hey guys, calm down. Didn't you notice we all do the "work" for PA for free. So I consider that any reproach for a work that took me nearly half a day (it's not basic translation as I explained) is misplaced to say the least. Besides, Philippe, the author of the original version, doesn't want to register to PA and he gave me his "blessing" to publish the translation with my own account.
Thanks. Edited by lucas - October 02 2015 at 09:47 |
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"Magma was the very first gothic rock band" (Didier Lockwood)
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Angelo
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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^Yeah yeah, they're gone, if only to give them a peace of mind this time. I hope they don't start analyzing patterns in every user rating cause it's not objective at all.
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Guldbamsen
Special Collaborator Retired Admin Joined: January 22 2009 Location: Magic Theatre Status: Offline Points: 23104 |
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Thanks George
I have to admit that I didn't click the facebook link earlier on I see what you mean now Angelo, and I agree. |
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“The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams |
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If you actually lost it cause you didn't save it I still have the copy if you need it. In the future we'd rather you promote a band with someone else's reviews through a forum thread about the band in question rather than posting it through your reviews on the main page. Obvious off topic posts removed, let's try and keep it about review/rating discussion and reporting. |
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Angelo
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
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Thank you. I just quoted it because it got lost in the fuzz. As for being objective - that may be true. This case was just too bloody obvious to ignore. |
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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Angelo
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
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Thanks, Dane! |
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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LakeGlade12
Forum Senior Member Joined: September 29 2013 Location: UK Status: Offline Points: 179 |
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Hmm so those reviews got deleted in the end, which I agree with. I do like posting inappropriate ratings and reviews here from time to time as I do care about the site, but the above case has blurred my understanding about what is acceptable and what is not. I always thought as long as the reviews written were decent enough they would stay on the site, even if the user had a clear agenda in raising one artist and lowering other artists on PA. But the above scenario shows that this is not the case. So just to clarify would this review http://www.progarchives.com/Review.asp?id=1201496 be acceptable or not? He wrote a single 1 star review to SW's Raven and never used the site again. I thought that was allowed but now I don't know? I assume someone who writes a few 5 star reviews and then never posts again is fine? Thanks |
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^I don't have any trouble with that one for Wilson personally. The ones that were removed we kinda relied on the overall majority of 2015 ratings which is suspicious a bit, and when they are merely that they are left alone until they are pointed out to us basically this time by the artist (cause ratings really don't have that much effect in the long run and are tiresome to check and remove). It's not a judgement we carry out often cause it's unreliable, unless it's based on double IP's or it's one of those accounts that has all ones and fives.
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Angelo
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
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@LakeGlade12, @historian9: It's blurry indeed, and also a lot of work if someone has to keep track of it. However, it seems that T has no control over what is happening (despite calling out to his 'fans' to stop doing this). I spotted more again today...
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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Angelo
Special Collaborator Honorary Collaborator / Retired Admin Joined: May 07 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 13244 |
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Like this one: http://www.progarchives.com/Collaborators.asp?id=56688 Now I couldn't care less about the yearly top-100, but if the admins (who didn't reply to my post above, nor to a PM about this) decided to not look into this we may as well drop the whole rating system? It's kind of silly to see how T's Fragmentropy gets a whole bunch of 5-star reviews, from people who 1) have no other reviews, only ratings and 2) explicitly rate all albums above this one in the 2015 top-100 lower than 5 stars. |
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ISKC Rock Radio
I stopped blogging and reviewing - so won't be handling requests. Promo's for ariplay can be sent to [email protected] |
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^And they're gone.
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Second Life Syndrome
Prog Reviewer Joined: August 20 2012 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 361 |
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Pretty sure that PA had trouble with T the last time around, too.
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theprogmind.com
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