Who is your favourite revolutionary?

Atavachron wrote: Kati wrote: A migrant is not a named individual thus cannot be considerate as a revolutionary Unless that is the revolution.

Atavachron wrote: Kati wrote: A migrant is not a named individual thus cannot be considerate as a revolutionary Unless that is the revolution.

It is a kind of revolution.

I nominate the infamous hacker known as 4chan.

Triceratopsoil wrote: Nothing says revolutionary like abandoning your own family and country to collect welfare somewhere else

I wonder if this revolution will go better with Coke.   That's a joke for the elderly among us.

Ivan_Melgar_M wrote: TGM: Orb wrote: You know that Hitler used the terms Marxism, Bolshevism and Communism interchangeably most of the time? I am fully aware that Marxism and Communism aren't equivalents, though they were typically viewed as such by the European nationalist right. The Daily Mail quote I brought up earlier clearly viewed Hitler and Mussolini favourably as right-wing parties. What Hitler used is not transcendental, Hitler was an ignorant soldier (Not officer), who spoke with the language he wanted the people to listen but usually fell in contradictions He spoke well of the Church and Christianity, but also said "Religion is incompatible with the Reich" and the more memorable “In the long run, National Socialism and religion will no longer be able to exist together.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 6 “Christianity is the worst of the regressions that mankind can ever have undergone, and it’s the Jew who, thanks to this diabolic invention, has thrown him back fifteen centuries.” –Hitler’s Table Talk, pg 322 Here you have a few Hitler quotes “If we are socialists, then we must definitely be anti-semites – and the opposite, in that case, is Materialism and Mammonism, which we seek to oppose.” “How, as a socialist, can you not be an anti-semite?” Adolf Hitler Speech to the NSDAP 1920 We are socialists, we are enemies of today’s capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions”  Adolf Hitler (1927) “I am a Socialist and a very different kind of Socialist from your rich friend Count Reventlow.”  Adolf Hitler 1930 Conversation with Otto Strasser In a 1924 New York Times article written by Goebbels (the Propaganda Minister), Goebbels revealed that Lenin and Hitler’s National Socialist Labor Party can be compared; the difference between Communism and the Hitler faith was very slight. This admission didn’t go down well with potential voters; thus, the Nazi’s changed their tactics and never again publicly stressed their resemblance to Communists. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-bloggers/2686291/posts I believe it's more than obvious. TGM: Orb wrote: Nazism's gov't involvement 'in all businesses' was only remotely true once the war broke out. Prior to the war they privatised many key elements of infrastructure, outlawed trade unions and suppressed wages. The command economy instituted by the Nazis was a necessity of Hitler's total warfare doctrine, not a left-wing political ideal and yes, right wing gov'ts would do and have done all of those measures. Sorry, please read this 11. Abolition of unearned (work and labour) incomes. Breaking of debt (interest)-slavery. 12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people, personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits. 13. We demand the nationalisation of all (previous) associated industries (trusts). 14. We demand a division of profits of all heavy industries. 17. We demand a land reform suitable to our needs, provision of a law for the free expropriation of land for the purposes of public utility, abolition of taxes on land and prevention of all speculation in land. 25. For the execution of all of this we demand the formation of a strong central power in the Reich. Unlimited authority of the central parliament over the whole Reich and its organizations in general. The forming of state and profession chambers for the execution of the laws made by the Reich within the various states of the confederation. The leaders of the Party promise, if necessary by sacrificing their own lives, to support by the execution of the points set forth above without consideration. Munich 24 February 1920 Hitler may have waited to the war to implement this changes BUT HE PROPOSED THEM IN 1920, IN OTHER WORDS, 19 YEARS BEFORE THE WAR TGM: Orb wrote: Hitler was not driven by class struggle, hence he was not a Marxist. It's that simple. His dedication to national and ethnic superiority was deeply antithetical to Marxism's 'workers of the world, unite' and largely represented a reactionary defence of traditional interests. His only consistent internal opponents prior to the war were the communist parties, not the democrats or the Mittelstand. Ethnic superiority was unethical for marxists What about? Ucranians  Chechens Romanian Jews Balkans Jews Gemans Koreans Etc All of them exterminated or relocated by force, which also constitutes Genocide Article II:  In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group;  (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;  (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (Holomodor) (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;  (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. (Jews, Chechens, Balkans, etc....) So please don't tell me about Marxist morality as some sort of Categorical Imperative, because even when there are moral Marxists, Stalin was immoral and criminal.

The formatting in your posts is so horrendously messy that I don't really want to quote it.

Yep, Hitler was deeply inconsistent but Drexler's NSDAP which Hitler took over was intensely anti-Marxist and anti-Communism and anti-Semitism were more or less the only consistent political views he held. National Socialism is reliant on ethnic rather than class struggle and hence IS NOT MARXIST. A government enacting the protection of already-dominant groups (men & Aryans) against economic competition is de facto reactionary and anti-Marxist. As is the dissolution of trade unions and the suppression of wages. I take it you know that the 1920 manifesto was written when Hitler wasn't leader of the NSDAP and was co-written by Drexler and others, who were driven to differentiate the DAP from the Volkspartei. The 25 points also advocates the strengthening of the middle class and all of the 'socialist' policies you have picked out are framed by racial protectionism.

The Agrarian policy you keep bringing up was largely directed at the rights of non-citizens to own land and the seizure of land owned by enemies of the state, be they Jews or Marxists. Hitler privatised the railways along with many other state assets and had an extremely cosy relationship with German business as well as a very low-tax regime.

Beyond that, the Nazis grew out of right wing, reactionary parties (the Vaterlandspartei having split into the DAP and the Volkspartei), were embraced internationally by the right wing press and challenged internationally by Communists and Marxists. If there was that much kinship between the two groups, why did they not get along?

A genocide is an attempt to destroy an ethnic group as a cultural unit. You've largely mentioned random nationalities rather than ethnic groups, which is silly. I take it that you know that over 100,000 Jews were massacred by the White Army (especially in the Ukraine) during the Russian Civil War. Jews were legally discriminated against by the Tsars, whose secret police were responsible for the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. The Soviets were the only faction to come out of the Russian Civil War as protecting the rights of Jews, which doesn't excuse Stalin's later coded removal of Jewish intellectuals but still - the democratic gov'ts of Europe wanted to install nationalist anti-semites instead of Marxists in Russia in 1919.

---

I think Stalin was a terrible Marxist. I still don't think he's any sort of equivalence to Hitler and I don't think we can judge the democratic nations of the world as any better, when they were instituting mass murders and non-democratic takeovers outside of their own countries out of paranoia at the spread of Communism. More or less the only decent Marxist Communists were Makhno's anarchist Black Army and they were put down by Lenin.

Dean wrote: Svetonio's "compadres" can always answer my posts on his behalf, and they frequently do.

Svetonio wrote: SteveG wrote: Svetonio wrote:             My comment is that Republic of Serbia (and whole west Balkan) is ready for a new socialism, of course with new politicians on the scene.     It's hard to believe that any sane person living in the 21st century could say something so idiotic.     Almost half of the US population - 49 percent - regards the government as a threat to their lives and liberty, according to a new Gallup poll. Distrust in the federal government has been on the rise since 2006, when it stood at 46 percent. The poll was conducted between September 9 and September 13, and included an open-ended question whether the US government was an “immediate threat to the rights and freedoms of ordinary citizens.” Two in three Republicans and one in three Democrats answered yes, Gallup noted. Among those agreeing, one in five was most concerned about the government becoming too big, too powerful, and having too many laws. Another 15 percent cited violations of freedoms and civil liberties, while 12 percent cited gun control efforts and threats to the 2nd amendment.

You do not understand the dynamics of prejudice that fuels many current American 'political opinions'. Please keep to totally misunderstanding your own immediate country and Balkan area. You simply don't have enough misinformed opinions to cover the complex and convoluted politics of the entire world. 

Edited by SteveG - September 23 2015 at 10:17

Educating Svetonio Lesson Number 1: I can publicly criticize my government without worrying about disappearing off the face of the earth tomorrow. Or placed in a the back of a van and shot in the head.

Edited by SteveG - September 23 2015 at 11:02

Chuck Schuldiner