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Topic: Who is your favourite revolutionary?Posted By: condor
Subject: Who is your favourite revolutionary?
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 13:13
I have deliberately excluded Stalinists
Replies: Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 13:33
Alexander Hamilton
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 14:21
C'mon, who was more photographic than Che?
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Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 15:14
Other. Pinochet I guess. There are too many pinko commies in that list
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 15:54
You missed out Svetonio.
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Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 16:00
Demetrio Stratos.
------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 16:01
For real, I voted in Lenin.
------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 16:02
You forget the Brazilian revolutionaries: Luis Carlos Prestes, Marighella, Alípio de Freitas, Gregório Bezerra....
------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 16:07
The murdered Victor Jara from Chile.
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Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 16:22
Paul Revere
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 16:23
Great reminding, Steve.
------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
Posted By: Atkingani
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 16:44
I voted Che but this guy deserves a mention:
------------- Guigo
~~~~~~
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 16:45
GKR wrote:
For real, I voted in Lenin.
If you make an omelette you have to break a few eggs right? ...or millions of lives but whatever.
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 16:53
My least favorite revolutionary would probably be Lee Harvey Oswald. That is of course assuming he shot the President all by himself. If not, well then he's just a dumb loser.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
Posted By: sublime220
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 18:08
Ho Chi Minh club!
------------- There is no dark side in the moon, really... Matter of fact, it's all dark...
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 18:30
sublime220 wrote:
Ho Chi Minh club!
------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 19:10
Rosa Luxemburg. And next time spell her name correctly, please.
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: August 31 2015 at 19:55
I understand you can't even come close to getting all of them, even all the major ones, but no mention at all of the American and French revolutions?
How about Arab Spring? I had a great affinity for that period of time. An act of protest by one person triggered a massive explosion of pent up anger and lead to so much abrupt change in an area we all in the rest of the world assumed was stable, to be forever under dictatorial rule. We were actually taught in our universities how "Maybe Islam/the middle east simply is just backwards" and "They just are not compatible with democracy" and all that BS got tossed out very quick, and we were taught how the area was backwards, so I really loved seeing the people standing up to say they are not inherently backwards...its the conditions many were forced to live under. I thought it was a beautiful, albeit savage, time and I think shattered many views held by us in the West, and proved people always have a breaking point.
Cant say I have a "favorite" so just for the sake of intrigue, I'll say the Orange Revolution.
Having Ukrainian heritage I really held hope for that period of time: the rejection of Russian dominance, oligarchy, corruption and embrace of Euro/US/Western pull and want to modernize.
From this list, the only I can say I like is Luxemburg.
Marx was interesting, though I feel he was a product of the time..moderate options that developed over time proved him wrong, which could be said of all Marxists.
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 08:48
Not to go off topic, JJLehto, but where does the quote "It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression" come from? It's familiar but I can't place it.
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 08:54
I am not a fan of revolutionaries at all, but some deserve a vote. Mine goes to Rolihlahla.
-------------
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 08:56
Thomas Paine or Thomas Jefferson.
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 09:24
"Never trust anyone who wants to change the world."
Repairman Jack
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: timothy leary
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 09:40
emigre80 wrote:
Not to go off topic, JJLehto, but where does the quote "It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression" come from? It's familiar but I can't place it.
Mark Corrigan
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 10:36
Other: Siddhartha
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 10:43
It seems that Jesus inhisowntime, would have it all over these guys.
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Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 10:53
timothy leary wrote:
emigre80 wrote:
Not to go off topic, JJLehto, but where does the quote "It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression" come from? It's familiar but I can't place it.
Mark Corrigan
thanks mate
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 10:55
SteveG wrote:
It seems that Jesus inhisowntime, would have it all over these guys.
Agree. But, since we got that far... why not Spartacus?
------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 11:00
^^^That was my first thought. Then Buddha and Muhammed and well Siddhartha is one of my favourite books. Herman Hesse in general is da bee's knees - a true psychic kungfu master of the written word.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 11:02
Feck! I was talking to Steve....
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 18:22
emigre80 wrote:
Not to go off topic, JJLehto, but where does the quote "It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression" come from? It's familiar but I can't place it.
Peep Show.
Oh, and to get back on topic...here's a leftist revolutionary that was left off:
Tito.
His forces liberated Yugoslavia with little Soviet support and was of course famous for his "independent minded" Socialism and didn't dabble in the Stalinist/Soviet shenanigans, and was a leading member of the non aligned movement. I have to admit, I am not very familiar at all with his domestic policy, but I never hear the name lumped with the more bloody/tyrannical dictators of the era.
Posted By: Atavachron
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 18:59
I'm Spartacus.
------------- "Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -- John F. Kennedy
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 19:02
^ Cool! But you forgot the shades!
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Posted By: presdoug
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 20:22
Other-Spartacus, indeed
Posted By: Kati
Date Posted: September 01 2015 at 21:50
Voted none of the above. Most revolutionaries became authoritarians. I do think Winston Churchill was a revolutionary in terms of his ideas how to deal with the second world war tho'. i.e. ships in convoy were more successful against the wolf pack submarines, he also is credited with coming up with designing the idea of the war tanks etc. he was very stubborn but also brave :) and obnoxious yes very much but at that time no one wanted his job thus they appointed him and he strived in it
Posted By: VOTOMS
Date Posted: September 02 2015 at 07:10
Where's Frank Zappa there?
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: September 02 2015 at 07:25
^Quite a few with whom I would never like to be seen.
-------------
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: September 02 2015 at 08:39
I smell a meme...
"Justin Bieber with Tito!" "Kim Kardashian with Tito!"
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 02 2015 at 10:59
Svetonio must have a Tito fetish......
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: September 02 2015 at 11:48
JJLehto wrote:
emigre80 wrote:
Not to go off topic, JJLehto, but where does the quote "It's fine, luckily we're all English so no one will ask any questions. Thank you centuries of emotional repression" come from? It's familiar but I can't place it.
Peep Show.
Oh, and to get back on topic...here's a leftist revolutionary that was left off:
Tito.
His forces liberated Yugoslavia with little Soviet support and was of course famous for his "independent minded" Socialism and didn't dabble in the Stalinist/Soviet shenanigans, and was a leading member of the non aligned movement. I have to admit, I am not very familiar at all with his domestic policy, but I never hear the name lumped with the more bloody/tyrannical dictators of the era.
An article from the British press, from 1970:
Yugoslavia is a contradiction: communist, yet a free society.The explanation is that it is no longer purely communist, yet there
are anomalies which westerners would regard as serious limitations of
freedom. Above all, Yugoslavia is highly self-disciplined.
Its
system of self-management and decentralisation defies accurate
comparison. One might be tempted to think Yugoslavia as westernised as,
say, Italy; but the League of Communists still plays the leading role,
and it pays to belong to the Party.
While Yugoslavs would not
accept Kremlin communism, they do not want a society based on private
capital. Nor do they admire British democracy — with its party whips and
an Opposition dedicated to overthrowing the Government — or the
American system with its wheeling and dealing, remote from ordinary
people.
In theory, the League of Communists is divorced from the
State. In fact all the Federal and Republic Ministers and leading
functionaries are Party members. The Party no longer issues directives;
it lays down principles upon which Government should act. Government
will argue tactics but would no more think of going against the Party
view than the Irish Government would condemn advice from Rome.
It
is essential to be a Party member if one wishes to become a Minister,
almost essential for election to the assemblies, and essential in an
army officer and among diplomats. The directors of most factories and
institutions are members.
On the other hand, on the ordinary
level, Party membership is a matter of choice, and it is easy to leave.
If a factory director is a paid-up card-carrier, his chief engineer is
likely not to be. The Macedonian information ministry representative who
drove me around was not a member. Nor are many professors.
More
important is the trend of reducing government interference at almost
every level. This and decentralisation are so advanced that many
communists are trying to restore some sort of central influence.
They
do not, however, necessarily want a return to Soviet communism
(although there is a "Cominformist" faction which would like centrally
controlled ideological principles), but rather some sense of Yugoslav
national policy to bring together the fiercely independent trends which
self-management creates.
There is, too, the natural strain between
progressives and conservatives, between rich and poor. The rich north
subsidises the often extremely poor south. Concepts of left and right
become muddled.
Marshal Tito, who is both a progressive and a conservative, presides over the pushing and shoving with monarchical prestige.
The
dividing line between Party power and civic independence is difficult
to draw. Many Yugoslavs claim that they have achieved their revolution
so that Party membership is less and less important.
One junior Minister said: "We are no longer too reliant on principles. They get in the way. We are much more pragmatic."
The
bad old days are explained away thus: "We are trying to telescope what
Oxford and Cambridge and Harvard and Yale achieved in 250 years into 25
years. We were an occupied country, too, and old memories from those
days still remain. What happened after the revolution was absolutely
necessary. Now things are different.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 02 2015 at 11:52
^If you remember the sixties, then you weren't there. That's false. We just want to forget about this Cold War BS.
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: September 02 2015 at 12:32
SteveG wrote:
^If you remember he sixties, then you weren't there. That's false. We just want to forget about this Cold War BS.
LOL! You should to forget Cold War because the New Cold War is already out there and at this moment the West don't have an answer on Kremlin's propaganda what successfuly presented Putin as an anti-globalist leader.
Posted By: progaardvark
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 07:42
Bob Denver
------------- ---------- i'm shopping for a new oil-cured sinus bag that's a happy bag of lettuce this car smells like cartilage nothing beats a good video about fractions
Posted By: NutterAlert
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 08:14
I prefer revoluntionaries like Noam Chomsky to brutal killers like Lenin or Tito
Posted By: The Dark Elf
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 08:21
progaardvark wrote:
Bob Denver
Did Gilligan revolt against the Skipper and claim Ginger in the coup?
------------- ...a vigorous circular motion hitherto unknown to the people of this area, but destined to take the place of the mud shark in your mythology...
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 12:01
Svetonio wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^If you remember the sixties, then you weren't there. That's false. We just want to forget about this Cold War BS.
LOL! You should to forget Cold War because the New Cold War is already out there and at this moment the West don't have an answer on Kremlin's propaganda what successfuly presented Putin as an anti-globalist leader.
Touche' Sventonio. Have a cigar!
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 12:04
The Dark Elf wrote:
progaardvark wrote:
Bob Denver
Did Gilligan revolt against the Skipper and claim Ginger in the coup?
The only thing I'm sure of is that Thurston Howell 3rd was not, by definition, a socialist.
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 13:38
other
Patrick Henry
if the Stamp Act really burned his biscuits... I be he would have gone postal about Neo-Prog...
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 13:55
NutterAlert wrote:
I prefer revoluntionaries like Noam Chomsky to brutal killers like Lenin or Tito
Marshal Tito was killed only fascists, but a lot of them, in WW2 / Revolution, all of the versions - German nazis, Italian fascists, ustashe, chetniks, Ljotic's fascists and so on. Or you maybe prefer our pre-Revolution leaders?
Pavle Karadjordjević, the prince regent of Kingdom of Yugoslavia, with Adolf Hitler, Berlin, 25 March 1941.
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 14:03
SteveG wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
SteveG wrote:
^If you remember the sixties, then you weren't there. That's false. We just want to forget about this Cold War BS.
LOL! You should to forget Cold War because the New Cold War is already out there and at this moment the West don't have an answer on Kremlin's propaganda what successfuly presented Putin as an anti-globalist leader.
Touche' Sventonio. Have a cigar!
Thanks
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 14:08
Svetonio's got some interesting revisionist history
Posted By: Raff
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 14:15
Triceratopsoil wrote:
Svetonio's got some interesting revisionist history
Says the guy who posts pics of Mussolini. My parents lived under Fascism and through WWII, and it surely was no picnic.
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 14:19
dr wu23 wrote:
Svetonio must have a Tito fetish......
better than his Milosevic fetish
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 14:28
micky wrote:
dr wu23 wrote:
Svetonio must have a Tito fetish......
better than his Milosevic fetish
As a Titoist, I can't be a fan of former Wall Street banker and counter-revolutionaire Slobodan Milošević who 1) destroyed Tito's Yugoslavia in blood, using Serbian nationalism which was defeated in the Revolution 2) replacing that ingeniously created decentralized self-management socialism with a centralized gangster-socialism.
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 14:31
ohhh.. it must have been your sock puppet that turned that one thread last year into a Milosevic appreciation thread...
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 14:40
I remeber when I was very small, my father (an old commie) saying to me that that country with something of my name ("Gus") didnt exist anymore. I got so upset - Dont even remeber exaclty when.
I've read only a small article about socialism in Yugoslavia, the descentralized sistem that differ so much from the Soviet Union (later periods) have to be brought up at some point.
------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
Posted By: twalsh
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 18:48
Another vote for Chomsky.
------------- More heavy prog, please!
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 19:02
And how did the Cold War influence Prog? Well, after Dr. Zhavago was released as a movie, MichaelDunford became interested in exiled or imprisoned Soviet writers like BorisPasternak and Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn and pretty soon we got songs from Renaissance like MotherRussia and UkraineWays. Does anyone know of other Cold War influences on prog?
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Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 19:10
two obvious examples are ..well the most obvious... RPI and Krautrock. Both not coincidentally on the front lines of the Cold War. As Raff would vouch for.. and we covered in the definition.. the Cold War was not so cold in Italy and Italian pop (Italian prog) was a rallying point and touch stone for the youth in those years of lead (Anni di piombo)
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 19:13
Alright! Kind of a leading question but this is your turf, man.
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Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 19:25
I voted Lenin, but my second option was Demetrio Stratos.
------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 19:36
SteveG wrote:
Alright! Kind of a leading question but this is your turf, man.
RPI is pretty obvious.. Damn right the Cold War influenced Italian prog. I definitely recommend reading up on the history of those years. The context in which all that music was made. Much more informative than you'll get from me as I don't have the time to fully explain it, and Raff is the one to really speak of that. She was there, I just learned from her.
Krautrock is a bit more subtle IMO in its influences and goes into some things I'd just assume not go into as it is some pretty heavy stuff.
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Posted By: micky
Date Posted: September 03 2015 at 19:41
GKR wrote:
I voted Lenin, but my second option was Demetrio Stratos.
ahhh.. we love tangents
so would Stratos be considered, in the context of the overall thread, to be the leading musical revolutionary. Tough category there if one considers the folksies...
------------- The Pedro and Micky Experience - When one no longer requires psychotropics to trip
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 02:30
Svetonio wrote:
NutterAlert wrote:
I prefer revoluntionaries like Noam Chomsky to brutal killers like Lenin or Tito
Marshal Tito was killed only fascists, but a lot of them, in WW2 / Revolution, all of the versions - German nazis, Italian fascists, ustashe, chetniks, Ljotic's fascists and so on.
Murder is murder. Killing thousands of unarmed soldiers, prisoners, civilians, nurses, women and children in the name of a political ideology is mass murder, in a time of war that is called a war crime and in peace it is genocide, politicide and democide, either way it is mass murder and a criminal act. You can stick your head in the sand and pretend that only armed combatants were killed but the forensic evidence from hundreds of mass graves says otherwise.
There isn't enough white paint in the World to whitewash over the mass murders committed throughout the World during the 20th century in the name of some ridiculous ideology. It's sickening and nothing that any human being can ever be proud of.
My favourite revolutionary, Mohandas Karamchand "Mahatma" Gandhi
Mahatma Gandhi with mill workers in Darwen, Lancashire during a 1931 visit to Britain
------------- What?
Posted By: Komandant Shamal
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 06:46
i voted "other".
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 07:25
Dean wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
NutterAlert wrote:
I prefer revoluntionaries like Noam Chomsky to brutal killers like Lenin or Tito
Marshal Tito was killed only fascists, but a lot of them, in WW2 / Revolution, all of the versions - German nazis, Italian fascists, ustashe, chetniks, Ljotic's fascists and so on.
Murder is murder. Killing thousands of unarmed soldiers, prisoners, civilians, nurses, women and children in the name of a political ideology is mass murder, in a time of war that is called a war crime and in peace it is genocide, politicide and democide, either way it is mass murder and a criminal act. You can stick your head in the sand and pretend that only armed combatants were killed but the forensic evidence from hundreds of mass graves says otherwise.
There isn't enough white paint in the World to whitewash over the mass murders committed throughout the World during the 20th century in the name of some ridiculous ideology. It's sickening and nothing that any human being can ever be proud of.
My favourite revolutionary, Mohandas Karamchand "Mahatma" Gandhi
Mahatma Gandhi with mill workers in Darwen, Lancashire during a 1931 visit to Britain
That's why I voted for Rosa Luxemburg, who never harmed a soul.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 08:51
Dean wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
NutterAlert wrote:
I prefer revoluntionaries like Noam Chomsky to brutal killers like Lenin or Tito
Marshal Tito was killed only fascists, but a lot of them, in WW2 / Revolution, all of the versions - German nazis, Italian fascists, ustashe, chetniks, Ljotic's fascists and so on.
Murder is murder. Killing thousands of unarmed soldiers, prisoners, civilians, nurses, women and children in the name of a political ideology is mass murder, in a time of war that is called a war crime and in peace it is genocide, politicide and democide, either way it is mass murder and a criminal act. You can stick your head in the sand and pretend that only armed combatants were killed but the forensic evidence from hundreds of mass graves says otherwise.
There isn't enough white paint in the World to whitewash over the mass murders committed throughout the World during the 20th century in the name of some ridiculous ideology. It's sickening and nothing that any human being can ever be proud of.
My favourite revolutionary, Mohandas Karamchand "Mahatma" Gandhi
Mahatma Gandhi with mill workers in Darwen, Lancashire during a 1931 visit to Britain
I'm not defending Svetonio Dean, but just asking a question. How long does it take someone that has been brainwashed by decades of propaganda from an amoral political structure, that was further fueled by paranoia, to see the truth of that country's past, if ever?
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 08:52
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 08:55
If ever?
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 09:03
SteveG wrote:
I'm defending Svetonio Dean, but just asking a question. How long does it take someone that has been brainwashed by decades of propaganda from an amoral political structure, that was further fueled by paranoia, to see the truth of that country's past, if ever?
SteveG wrote:
If ever?
A good point well made.
------------- What?
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 09:03
Svetonio wrote:
Apparently you are not very selective in picking your pleas for Josip Broz .
-------------
Posted By: Saperlipopette!
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 09:35
I have a quote I'd like to share as well
Posted By: Padraic
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 10:28
"Most quotes on the internet are made up" - Abraham Lincoln
Posted By: NutterAlert
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 10:48
King Zog of Albania must be worth a mention soon..another unenlightened despot!
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 12:24
Looking at some of the comments above.....
... is why I quoted Repairman Jack ( a fictional character btw...)
'Never trust anyone who wants to change the world.'
Usually those 'revolutionaries' end up killing people to achieve their 'enlightened and lofty goals'.
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 12:58
someone_else wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
Apparently you are not very selective in picking your pleas for Josip Broz .
Wow...just wow
Mugabe was probably one of the worst African leaders - ruthless and evil.
Kinda like standing up for Richard Wagner by quoting Hitler.
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 13:08
If ever I have any doubts whatsoever about the futility, evil, and sheer stupidity of men governed by blind ideology, I shall go back to Dean's exceptional post, and then wonder in utter amazement at Svetonio's ridiculous attempt to continue defending that position.
Sir, you are a bloody idiot, and your like is damned dangerous.
------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
Posted By: Skalla-Grim
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 13:13
Who is your favourite revolutionary?
Giordano Bruno https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno
Posted By: Ivan_Melgar_M
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 13:26
Sophie Scholl, she had a real cause and wasn't a politician with petty interests
And of course
I would never vote for a criminal as Guevara, a genocide as Lenin, Stalin or Mao
PS: I would had mentioned Jesus Christ, but it could cause some negative reactions, so lets leave it in contemporary men and women
-------------
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: September 04 2015 at 14:52
Raff wrote:
Triceratopsoil wrote:
Svetonio's got some interesting revisionist history
Says the guy who posts pics of Mussolini. My parents lived under Fascism and through WWII, and it surely was no picnic.
What does that have to do with the fact that Tito was as much of a tyrannical despot as every other communist leader?
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 05 2015 at 00:51
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
I'm defending Svetonio Dean, but just asking a question. How long does it take someone that has been brainwashed by decades of propaganda from an amoral political structure, that was further fueled by paranoia, to see the truth of that country's past, if ever?
SteveG wrote:
If ever?
A good point well made.
Never in their lifetime?
------------- What?
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 05 2015 at 02:46
Svetonio wrote:
lazland wrote:
If ever I have any doubts whatsoever about the futility, evil, and sheer stupidity of men governed by blind ideology, I shall go back to Dean's exceptional post, and then wonder in utter amazement at Svetonio's ridiculous attempt to continue defending that position.
Sir, you are a bloody idiot, and your like is damned dangerous.
Oh, you're all very sweet and pretty smart ones and yet well educated in the history, especially in the history of the Balkans, if you thought that Marshal Titoandhis partisansweresupposed to practice satyāgraha when dealtwith the guyslikethese:
Serbian chetniks:
::snip::
Sorry you nice people for these disturbing pictures, but believe me, I carefully chose for you the less disturbing ones.
Oh and when you once find the pictures or any relevant evidence (not from chetniks' & ustashe's "literature" and neo-nazi web pages) of the mass graves with the children, woman and old people but caused by the Yugoslav partisans, please just let me know.
What the Axis collaborators did during WWII in the Balkans was horrific and shameful on the entire human race. The post-WWII retaliation and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_purges_in_Serbia_in_1944–45" rel="nofollow - reprisals by the Partisan forces was not on the same scale but it was no less horrific and just as deplorable, again you can pretend this never happened but the official forensic evidence says otherwise. Mass-murder of unarmed prisoners and civilians can never be justified, regardless of whatever ideology you support. One crime does not condone another.
I take no sides here, I detest war, murder and killing regardless of the cause. My own country has a shameful 400 year http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_war_crimes" rel="nofollow - history of war-crime s that I am not proud of. Just recently http://www.express.co.uk/news/history/602453/Skeletons-mass-graves-soldiers-Battle-of-Dunbar" rel="nofollow - a mass grave of Scottish prisoners captured after the Battle of Dunbar in 1650 was discovered in Durham - it seems that these prisoners died from neglect (hunger, exhaustion and dysentery) rather than execution but that is no excuse.
------------- What?
Posted By: dr wu23
Date Posted: September 05 2015 at 06:59
Skalla-Grim wrote:
Who is your favourite revolutionary?
Giordano Bruno https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno
A very interesting character...I enjoyed this book some years ago.....
------------- One does nothing yet nothing is left undone. Haquin
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: September 05 2015 at 10:20
someone_else wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
Apparently you are not very selective in picking your pleas for Josip Broz .
Actually, Robert Mugabe was becoming well known and respected revolutionary in the seventies when he was led his people to freedom from racist tyranny of the White minority. Yes I know that many people were lost thier lifes back then, but the freedom is always expensive, isnt?In the seventies, Yugoslavia was helped his fight with a lot of war material. Btw, Yugoslavia had one of the biggest arms production in Europe in the seventies; even A-bomb we were able to produce easily as we had material for that aswell, but Tito, as an humanist, was against the nuclear weapons in general. Robert Mugabe became prime minister in 1980, exactly the same year when Tito died. So even if President Mugabe really was so much corrupted and "evil" later, as the Western propaganda says, Tito had nothing to do with that, simply because Marshal Tito was already dead when Robert become the prime minister.
Posted By: GKR
Date Posted: September 05 2015 at 10:57
Talking about africans: Frantz Fanon (actually a martinican, but fight in the Algeria revolution), Amílcar Cabral, Nkrumah, Lumumba, Biko...
------------- - From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 05 2015 at 11:49
Dean wrote:
Dean wrote:
SteveG wrote:
I'm defending Svetonio Dean, but just asking a question. How long does it take someone that has been brainwashed by decades of propaganda from an amoral political structure, that was further fueled by paranoia, to see the truth of that country's past, if ever?
SteveG wrote:
If ever?
A good point well made.
Never in their lifetime?
A classic case of someone choosing the slightly lesser of two disgusting evils. It's really pathetic it this point. There's nothing else I can say about his warped perceptions.
------------- This message was brought to you by a proud supporter of the Deep State.
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: September 05 2015 at 12:44
GKR wrote:
Talking about africans: Frantz Fanon (actually a martinican, but fight in the Algeria revolution), Amílcar Cabral, Nkrumah, Lumumba, Biko...
Tito and Julius Nyerere, President of Tanzania
Tito and Jomo Kenyatta, President of Kenya
Tito and Kenneth Kaunda, President of Zambia
Tito and Musa Traore, President of Mali
Tito and Ahmed Sekou-Toure, President of Guinea
Posted By: Otto9999
Date Posted: September 05 2015 at 12:59
Removed due to PA's deliberated act of deleting threads as alleged featuring negative behaviour posts towards others.
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: September 05 2015 at 13:13
Otto9999 wrote:
Nothing more damn disgustiong than this bunch of "revolutionaries" listed here, so sorry.. but I hate all of them.
I can make an objection though. just for science celebrities obviously.
Can someone ever tell me when I have the permission to throw just a single vote here? , thanks.
40 posts will get you to the level where you can vote in polls.
p.s. agree with your point about the people listed.
Posted By: A Person
Date Posted: September 05 2015 at 13:21
Padraic wrote:
"Most quotes on the internet are made up" - Abraham Lincoln
- Michael Scott
Ivan_Melgar_M wrote:
PS: I would had mentioned Jesus Christ, but it
could cause some negative reactions, so lets leave it in contemporary
men and women
I am not particularly religious but I have a
lot more respect for figures such as Jesus Christ or Siddhartha Gautama
than I do for any advocate of violence.
Posted By: infocat
Date Posted: September 05 2015 at 18:15
Dean wrote:
I take no sides here, I detest war, murder and killing regardless of the cause. My own country has a shameful 400 year http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_war_crimes" rel="nofollow - history of war-crime s that I am not proud of. Just recently http://www.express.co.uk/news/history/602453/Skeletons-mass-graves-soldiers-Battle-of-Dunbar" rel="nofollow - a mass grave of Scottish prisoners captured after the Battle of Dunbar in 1650 was discovered in Durham - it seems that these prisoners died from neglect (hunger, exhaustion and dysentery) rather than execution but that is no excuse.
Brings this to my mind (unfortunately): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andersonville_National_Historic_Site" rel="nofollow - Andersonville Prison (the American Civil War) .
------------- -- Frank Swarbrick Belief is not Truth.
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: September 05 2015 at 19:26
Svetonio wrote:
....To be fair, those are not exactly the type of people I'd want to be associated with Tito.
Especially Mugabe IF that is an accurate quote, I would never want someone I like, since you are a fan of Tito, to be cited by Mugabe!
Though I have to say, Mugabe is actually a beautiful example of what can, and very often does, go wrong with revolutionaries. The classic "revolutionary who may have meant well/done some good becoming the next problem once in power" is perhaps best summed up by him. Not just physically, but mentally...a huge danger with revolutionary mindset (I mean this to be through violence and not gradual change/ peaceful protest) is that the forces at work can easily get out of hand and not think rationally.
Land reform may be a populist rallying cry and perhaps was a popular idea, Mugabe sure always pushed for it, but we all know how terrifyingly bad that turned out to be. Can't let emotion, especially when anger based, dictate events.
Posted By: JJLehto
Date Posted: September 05 2015 at 19:44
But yeah, the only revolutionaries I can respect are those who have achieved something through non violence.
Some classics are Portugal in '74, Czechoslovakia in '89, and the ones in Serbia, George, and Ukraine. These are ones that of course have been more mass movements, opposed to a single leader.
The best way to reform, hate to be rain on the parade, is gradual change and natural processes.
The end of capitalism, as it was known as the time, came thanks to the Great Depression, and leftist ideas being slowly implemented not via Communism or even Socialism...but by developing various forms of social democracy, more or less. Organized labor's biggest success came post WWII and it was through moderate capitalist democracy...not any of the more radical ways.
Posted By: Svetonio
Date Posted: September 05 2015 at 23:54
One oak tree didn't survived, but another is still there in Tito's garden and it's really a georgeous living sculpture now.
Posted By: Dean
Date Posted: September 06 2015 at 04:31
infocat wrote:
Dean wrote:
I take no sides here, I detest war, murder and killing regardless of the cause. My own country has a shameful 400 year http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_war_crimes" rel="nofollow - history of war-crime s that I am not proud of. Just recently http://www.express.co.uk/news/history/602453/Skeletons-mass-graves-soldiers-Battle-of-Dunbar" rel="nofollow - a mass grave of Scottish prisoners captured after the Battle of Dunbar in 1650 was discovered in Durham - it seems that these prisoners died from neglect (hunger, exhaustion and dysentery) rather than execution but that is no excuse.
Brings this to my mind (unfortunately): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andersonville_National_Historic_Site" rel="nofollow - Andersonville Prison (the American Civil War) .
"Many and sharp the num'rous ills
Inwoven with our frame!
More pointed still we make ourselves,
Regret, remorse, and shame!
And man, whose heav'n-erected face
The smiles of love adorn, -
Man's inhumanity to man
Makes countless thousands mourn!"
~ Robert Burns
To paraphrase Steven Weinberg: Good people do good things and evil people do evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes ideology.
------------- What?
Posted By: emigre80
Date Posted: September 06 2015 at 09:32
Dean wrote:
To paraphrase Steven Weinberg: Good people do good things and evil people do evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes ideology.
Very well put, and it looks like some of us needed the reminder.
Posted By: someone_else
Date Posted: September 07 2015 at 08:54
Svetonio wrote:
someone_else wrote:
Svetonio wrote:
Apparently you are not very selective in picking your pleas for Josip Broz .
Actually, Robert Mugabe was becoming well known and respected revolutionary in the seventies when he was led his people to freedom from racist tyranny of the White minority. Yes I know that many people were lost thier lifes back then, but the freedom is always expensive, isnt?In the seventies, Yugoslavia was helped his fight with a lot of war material. Btw, Yugoslavia had one of the biggest arms production in Europe in the seventies; even A-bomb we were able to produce easily as we had material for that aswell, but Tito, as an humanist, was against the nuclear weapons in general. Robert Mugabe became prime minister in 1980, exactly the same year when Tito died. So even if President Mugabe really was so much corrupted and "evil" later, as the Western propaganda says, Tito had nothing to do with that, simply because Marshal Tito was already dead when Robert become the prime minister.
Quite interesting... According to Wikipedia, Tito passed away on May 4, 1980. Robert Mugabe became prime minister on April 18. But later in that year I got a crush on a girl whose Yugoslavian (probably Slovenian or Croatian) mother suspected that his death had been kept secret for about four months .
Nevertheless, even though both of us seem to be prone to Western propaganda one way or another ( http://www.progarchives.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=101281" rel="nofollow - example ), Mugabe's development in after years, whether seen to coloured glasses or not, give him a certain connotation. When Tito was no more, he seems to have taken his second door neighbour Hastings Kamuzu Banda as his main influence: very dangerous to his opponents and living it up on top of the rock beyond a venerable old age.
-------------
Posted By: Guldbamsen
Date Posted: September 07 2015 at 09:18
^Very much agree with you there.
We all see the world through our own little keyhole.......but you have got to inject a little common sense into all of this, and by that I mean implementing a critical and logical approach to history........and if you use those two when putting a man like Mugabe under the microscope, you'd no doubt have the same bad taste in your mouth as I had, when I first saw someone posting a pic of him in order to highlight another questionable 'revolutionary'. It is possibly the most surreal thing I've seen on PA as of yet (and I've seen some weird sh*t).
------------- “The Guide says there is an art to flying or rather a knack. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss.”
- Douglas Adams
Posted By: lazland
Date Posted: September 07 2015 at 14:27
Guldbamsen wrote:
^Very much agree with you there.
We all see the world through our own little keyhole.......but you have got to inject a little common sense into all of this, and by that I mean implementing a critical and logical approach to history........and if you use those two when putting a man like Mugabe under the microscope, you'd no doubt have the same bad taste in your mouth as I had, when I first saw someone posting a pic of him in order to highlight another questionable 'revolutionary'. It is possibly the most surreal thing I've seen on PA as of yet (and I've seen some weird sh*t).
Absolutely, David. The key phrase you use is "through our own little keyhole", and Svetonio's is smaller than most.
The poor people of Zimbabwe have, basically, swapped one repressive regime for another. A White Fascist regime for a black one, and neither any better than the other. Mugabe is not a freedom fighter, he is a dictator, who did, and continues to do, ruthlessly wipe out any form of legitimate opposition, and now acts in the finest tradition of ruthless dictators by grabbing as much money and assets as he can, and ensuring that the succession when he eventually buggers off to his maker is kept "in the family". That, by the way, will not succeed. When he dies, there will be all hell to pay, and, as usual, it will be the poor common people who suffer.
Where Svetonio and I will probably find some common cause is who is, ultimately, to blame for all of this. It was the good old Imperialists. When we left, and Empire crumbled, we, under a cloud of liberal angst, or stupidity (delete according to taste), imagined somehow that our colonial subjects would adapt to a democratic system such as ours easily, and welcome it. Of course, our democracy (in reality, still a technocratic establishment ruling the roost) has taken centuries to develop. We expected them to have it in a couple of years. We still do, by the way. Just look at the mess we have made of the Middle East, imagining that the "Arab Spring" would lead to a utopian land of freedom and democracy. We keep sticking our oars in, and we always, without exception, make things worse.
Revolution is very rarely, if ever, the answer. Following blindly, as Svetonio does, the words and deeds of atrocious, murdering lunatics, and their power mad followers, is never the answer. Common cause between decent, kind, but most of all, principled peoples of the world is. When we get there, I suspect I will be long gone from this mortal coil.
A last word. So called Liberal democracies promulgate this mad idea that they (and it is they, in our name, but not us) imagine they can solve all of the world's problems with their own political template. In reality, they barely run their own countries, let alone anyone else. We are governed in the West by the hegemony of big money, and the establishment which leeches onto it. Having said that, I would rather that than being run by the mad Stalinists, Trots, Fascists, Religious maniacs, and all the other nasty little monkeys witnessed running some of these places.
Svetonio's error is in believing that everyone who loathes our system is automatically virtuous and right. In most cases, they are a damned sight worse, and modern history bears very heavy witness to this.
I despair of the left, and I am allowed to state this, because I was, once, a part of it.
Look.......no photos to prove my point..........
------------- Enhance your life. Get down to www.lazland.org
Now also broadcasting on www.progzilla.com Every Saturday, 4.00 p.m. UK time!
Posted By: SteveG
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 12:41
lazland wrote:
Guldbamsen wrote:
^Very much agree with you there.
We all see the world through our own little keyhole.......but you have got to inject a little common sense into all of this, and by that I mean implementing a critical and logical approach to history........and if you use those two when putting a man like Mugabe under the microscope, you'd no doubt have the same bad taste in your mouth as I had, when I first saw someone posting a pic of him in order to highlight another questionable 'revolutionary'. It is possibly the most surreal thing I've seen on PA as of yet (and I've seen some weird sh*t).
Absolutely, David. The key phrase you use is "through our own little keyhole", and Svetonio's is smaller than most.
The poor people of Zimbabwe have, basically, swapped one repressive regime for another. A White Fascist regime for a black one, and neither any better than the other. Mugabe is not a freedom fighter, he is a dictator, who did, and continues to do, ruthlessly wipe out any form of legitimate opposition, and now acts in the finest tradition of ruthless dictators by grabbing as much money and assets as he can, and ensuring that the succession when he eventually buggers off to his maker is kept "in the family". That, by the way, will not succeed. When he dies, there will be all hell to pay, and, as usual, it will be the poor common people who suffer.
Where Svetonio and I will probably find some common cause is who is, ultimately, to blame for all of this. It was the good old Imperialists. When we left, and Empire crumbled, we, under a cloud of liberal angst, or stupidity (delete according to taste), imagined somehow that our colonial subjects would adapt to a democratic system such as ours easily, and welcome it. Of course, our democracy (in reality, still a technocratic establishment ruling the roost) has taken centuries to develop. We expected them to have it in a couple of years. We still do, by the way. Just look at the mess we have made of the Middle East, imagining that the "Arab Spring" would lead to a utopian land of freedom and democracy. We keep sticking our oars in, and we always, without exception, make things worse.
Revolution is very rarely, if ever, the answer. Following blindly, as Svetonio does, the words and deeds of atrocious, murdering lunatics, and their power mad followers, is never the answer. Common cause between decent, kind, but most of all, principled peoples of the world is. When we get there, I suspect I will be long gone from this mortal coil.
A last word. So called Liberal democracies promulgate this mad idea that they (and it is they, in our name, but not us) imagine they can solve all of the world's problems with their own political template. In reality, they barely run their own countries, let alone anyone else. We are governed in the West by the hegemony of big money, and the establishment which leeches onto it. Having said that, I would rather that than being run by the mad Stalinists, Trots, Fascists, Religious maniacs, and all the other nasty little monkeys witnessed running some of these places.
Svetonio's error is in believing that everyone who loathes our system is automatically virtuous and right. In most cases, they are a damned sight worse, and modern history bears very heavy witness to this.
I despair of the left, and I am allowed to state this, because I was, once, a part of it.
Look.......no photos to prove my point..........
Great post Steve, and correct on all points except one. Svetonio's keyhole is microscopic instead of 'smaller than most'.
I'm sick of his endless posting of photos that do absolutely nothing to aid his argumenst, so I'll stay away from this post for the remainder of it's life.
Posted By: Triceratopsoil
Date Posted: September 08 2015 at 13:01
Mugabe is begging the white farmers to come back because nobody left in Zimbabwe is willing or able to farm successfully... wow great coup