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Points: 16952 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 12:02
Originally posted by steviedee steviedee wrote:

Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

Hopefully you'll posts your thoughts on any other albums/artists you hear. A nice place to start if you liked those would be possibly Bones in the Soil, Rust in the Oil by Pretend. 
Clean tones, dynamic, jazz influences here and there, mathy guitar lines. Great album. 


This is a lovely track. The drums are fantastic. Being something of an old geezer and making old Geezer associations I think  it kind of has a sort of Cocteau Twins vibe going on. But I'm not much up on the whole scene.

Thanks, the drumming part of Math-Rock is one of the key reasons i love the genre so much! Being one myself Embarrassed




Edited by Horizons - January 04 2014 at 12:02
Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Points: 13298 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 12:19
Originally posted by zravkapt zravkapt wrote:

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

I'm still not convinced the two subgenres are related at all.


I just woke up. I'll get back to you on that.

ETA: Ok, I'm awake now and can think straight(er).

Post/Math is the only sub on PA that has a connection to alternative/indie rock. There are some alt/indie oriented artists in both Crossover and Psyche/Space but Post/Math is the only sub where the majority of artists have any alt/indie connection (the same way artists in the three metal subs have a connection to the metal world). Outside PA both Post and Math get lumped together and some bands get both labels. Don Caballero is regarded as the "math rock" band but they were one of the first bands to be labelled "post rock"...the term "math rock" didn't exist yet. You could say every 'math' band is PA worthy but that's not the case with every 'post' band. Stereolab were one of the first groups to be labelled "post rock" and one of the most popular; however, even though they have a Krautrock influence, their music is generally too much in the dream pop/lounge pop area to be considered PA worthy. Also, some bands regarded as "post metal" here on PA like Isis and Pelican are considered "post rock" elsewhere.

The original post and math bands had similar influences and backgrounds. "Post rock" was a term applied to different bands with very different sounds; "Math rock" was used for bands who did have somewhat of a similar style. There is no 'post rock' sound (even if dozens of bands sound exactly like each other), while stereotypical 'math rock' sounds like a cross between '80s Crimson, post-hardcore and Captain Beefheart. There are both post and math bands who have a fusion influence, in 'post' it's more of the Herbie Hancock/Weather Report variety while in 'math' it's more of the Mahavishnu Orchestra/Return To Forever variety. In reality, neither is a real genre of rock music (the same way "progressive rock" was not a real genre; some of you will lose sleep over that...you're welcome). "Progressive rock", "post-rock" and "math rock" are just adjectives that got turned into nouns. If you ask you're average member of a 'prog', 'post' or 'math' band what kind of music they play, they will most likely tell you 'experimental rock'.

Just like a lot of the prog bands from the 1970s did not like being referred to as "progressive rock" so too did a lot of post and math bands not enjoy the labels they got. Here's some notable quotables:

I couldn't help but start my interview with Tortoise drummer John Herndon by asking him to guess the name of this blog. "I can't answer that. I'm not going to say Post Rock," he said. So that got things off to a great start.

Of all the terrible microgenre names, that has got to be one of the least exciting ones to be branded with, doesn't it?
It's something that we've been trying to [expletive] crawl out from under since some jackass pinned it on us.

(John Herndon of Tortoise)

So, does that make Tortoise "post-rock"?

"It doesn't annoy me or anything," says Dan Bitney, who talks a bit like comedian Steven Wright, "except for, the accumulation of minutes I've spent talking about it in my life, I probably could have made a great painting or something in that amount of time.

"Most of us were rock musicians or whatever, then we flipped it," he adds. "But like when I go through customs at the airport if they asked me what type of music I play, I would never say 'post-rock.' They would be like, 'Um, you're going to need to describe what that means.' "

(Dan Bitney of Tortoise)

"I think for a time, we probably rejected [being called post-rock]," Explosions in the Sky bassist Michael James tells the Scene during a break in the band's tour. "After a while, I think we sort of came to accept that nobody's denigrating you by calling you a post-rock band, it's just a very easy reference. That's all it is."

(Michael James of Explosions In The Sky)

Because you’re instrumental, people tend to unfortunately lump you into that whole post rock genre which is normally quite samey, with little reinvention. How do you feel about being grouped with bands like that?

Dave: If people choose to use that term that’s fine. You’ve got to classify music somehow so it doesn’t really bother me. Whether I agree with it or not doesn’t matter. We don’t try to be post rock and we didn’t really think about it until recently we heard a lot of people tell us we were. We didn’t even know what post rock was until Cliff from Red Sparowes and Isis said “this is what it is” and we thought “I guess this is right?”

(Dave Turncrantz of Russian Circles)

Mogwai tend to get lumped in with bands described as “post-rock” or “math-rock,” but you don’t come across as mathy at all, rather very instinctive and free. Does that bother you?

I don’t think we are very mathy, no. Even when we do something unusual with timing or something, it has to sound natural. Otherwise, you’ve failed. It’s like, if you’re making a film and it’s really obvious when the special effects come in, then you’ve failed.

(Stuart Braithwaite of Mogwai)

Do you feel like you get lumped into genres you don't feel like you belong in?


The short answer to that is yes, but really I don't care. We get lumped into the whole math rock thing a lot. My whole thing with that is when someone says, "You guys would go really go with this band," if I go check out that band, it just happens to be the kind of thing where I don't see the correlation between the two. If we're talking math rock bands, it might be a band who is really really clean, not a lot of dynamics, this stop-and-start thing going on.


(Nick Reinhart of Tera Melos)


Battles: "We're Not Math Rock"


http://www.gigwise.com/news/30503/Battles-Were-Not-Math-Rock


Excellently said, I was going to say roughly the same thing in half as many words with not nearly the degree of alacrity. Clap

Post and Math are connected - but perhaps in not such an obvious way as say progressive metal and tech/extreme prog metal. They stem from the same influences and have the same musical origins. In many cases, bands will mix the post and math rock sound. It'd be incredibly difficult to separate the two genres for this reason.
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Points: 4671 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 13:06
Here's a rarely mentioned band that I absolutely love.  Sioum is a great mix of harder, almost post-metal style, along with the more "ambient" post-rock sound.  This track is one of the heavier, more rocking ones.

Shift



Hear the full album, I Am Mortal, But Was Fiend, here:  http://sioum.bandcamp.com/album/i-am-mortal-but-was-fiend.


And how about some jazzy, mathy, post-rock delight?  Try Tangled Thoughts Of Leaving:

Throw Us To The Wind
...And Sever Us From The Present



Hear the full album, Deaden The Fields, here:  http://music.tangledthoughtsofleaving.com/album/deaden-the-fields.

As for math rock itself, I don't have much of it.  Here's all the ones I own, I believe:
And So I Watch You From Afar - Gangs
Battles - Mirrored
Don Caballero - American Don
Maserati - Pyramid Of The Sun
Maserati - VII
This Town Needs Guns - 13.0.0.0.0

Probably like Pyramid Of The Sun the most, but I dare say its the least "mathy" of the above list.  Much of the mathy stuff strikes me as a bit "cold".  And TTNG is too "pop" oriented.  Gangs is pretty good.

Are these math rock?  Wikipedia says so, but I don't hear it as much.  More post-rock, and preferred by me to any of the above:
Slint - Tweez
Slint - Spiderland
Russian Circles - Empros

I'm going to check out Giraffes? Giraffes! - Pink Magick right now.
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Points: 16952 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 13:12
I'm liking the Sioum stuff - thanks. More like Russian Circles' later stuff. Russian Circles is a weird case, Empros has the most MR and Post-Rock influences of their discography but in general they have a more post-metal sound and aren't that mathy. 

Also for Giraffes? Giraffes!, i'd start with More Skin For Milk Mouth - it's better in my opinion. 
I Am Shimmer is one of my favorite MR tracks. 
Crushed like a rose in the riverflow.
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Points: 21795 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 13:15
The more ambient stuff is always some of my favorite, like Hammock or The American Dollar:

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Points: 6451 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 13:40
Originally posted by infocat infocat wrote:


Maserati

Probably like Pyramid Of The Sun the most, but I dare say its the least "mathy" of the above list. 

Are these math rock?  Wikipedia says so, but I don't hear it as much:

Slint - Spiderland

I don't recall Maserati ever being called math rock, but they have been called space rock by some. Their first album is almost stereotypical post rock from the 2000s. After that they got their groove on, but unfortunately they stayed there and the following albums pretty much sound the same.

Slint is a weird case. Here in Prog Related, they were an influence on both but don't really sound like either.
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Points: 16952 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 13:49
Originally posted by zravkapt zravkapt wrote:

 
Slint is a weird case. Here in Prog Related, they were an influence on both but don't really sound like either.



I struggle to try to explain this LOL


Edited by Horizons - January 04 2014 at 13:49
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Points: 21795 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 13:52
Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

Originally posted by zravkapt zravkapt wrote:

 
Slint is a weird case. Here in Prog Related, they were an influence on both but don't really sound like either.



I struggle to try to explain this LOL
The sound was not posty or mathy but my best guess (and it is a guess) is that the songwriting structure was similar. I would have to listen to Spiderland again but I seem to remember it being like some kind of indie-rock classical music only the alt-rock vibe was overwhelming.

That doesn't really explain it either. LOL
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Points: 8856 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 14:13
I'll be dropping in here time to time for new music to listen to. My knowledge of post rock and math rock is rudimentary at best, but I've liked most of the stuff I've heard. Sigur Ros and Battles are favorites of mine (although I didn't like Gloss Drop a whole lot).
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Points: 18016 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 14:15
Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

I'm liking the Sioum stuff - thanks.


I'm surprised you haven't listened to them yet, I Am Mortal... has been free on bandcamp for ages
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Points: 5898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 14:20
zravkapt mentioned that "post-rock" was originally made up by reviewers to lump together very disparate music styles and subcultures, most of whom rejected the categorization... wouldn't surprise me if "math rock" is the same way. Always thought that referred to the more technical and musically deconstructionist hardcore punk bands like Dillinger Escape Plan or Shellac. (whom I'm not sure call their own music that either)
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Points: 16952 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 14:22
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

I'm liking the Sioum stuff - thanks.


I'm surprised you haven't listened to them yet, I Am Mortal... has been free on bandcamp for ages

Too many things Stern Smile
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Points: 18016 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 14:27
Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

I'm liking the Sioum stuff - thanks.


I'm surprised you haven't listened to them yet, I Am Mortal... has been free on bandcamp for ages

Too many things Stern Smile


IIRC it's one of the albums linked after downloading Part The Second, that's where I heard of it first
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Points: 21795 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 14:30
Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

Originally posted by Triceratopsoil Triceratopsoil wrote:

Originally posted by Horizons Horizons wrote:

I'm liking the Sioum stuff - thanks.


I'm surprised you haven't listened to them yet, I Am Mortal... has been free on bandcamp for ages

Too many things Stern Smile


IIRC it's one of the albums linked after downloading Part The Second, that's where I heard of it first
I downloaded Part the Second so long ago, I didn't remember it was a bandcamp download. LOL
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Points: 18016 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 19:30
It's not, I am thinking of a different album but it entirely escapes me which one.

Something everybody has, anyway.
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Points: 13298 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 04 2014 at 19:46
Originally posted by Toaster Mantis Toaster Mantis wrote:

zravkapt mentioned that "post-rock" was originally made up by reviewers to lump together very disparate music styles and subcultures, most of whom rejected the categorization... wouldn't surprise me if "math rock" is the same way. Always thought that referred to the more technical and musically deconstructionist hardcore punk bands like Dillinger Escape Plan or Shellac. (whom I'm not sure call their own music that either)


Dillinger is mathcore, which is math rock fused with extreme hardcore punk and metalcore.
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Points: 6451 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 05 2014 at 09:33
Since this is an appreciation thread I might as well post some vids of some of my faves from this sub some may not know of/may be interested in.

One of my current 'post' faves:



One of my current 'math' faves:



A trio that can fit into both (with a strong electronic element):
Magma America Great Make Again
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Points: 46 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 06 2014 at 19:58
Just in case no one has heard it yet. Who needs black metal when you can make post rock this good?
[flash]http://www.youtube.com/v/9wxZ1DV9xO4[/flash] 

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Points: 5898 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2014 at 04:25
Because black metal and post-rock are made to fulfil completely different creative purposes and emotional needs? The latter might be much further up in the "high culture/low culture" hierarchy, but that does not make it objectively better.
"The past is not some static being, it is not a previous present, nor a present that has passed away; the past has its own dynamic being which is constantly renewed and renewing." - Claire Colebrook
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Points: 31169 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: January 07 2014 at 15:17
Been listening to a lot of this type of music as of late.

Jakob, Ef, Grails, Mono, Collapse Under the Empire, Long Distance Calling, Pg.lost are some artists I've enjoyed.

I usually listen to stations on Spotify (now also trying Google Music) to get more exposure.
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