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Conor Fynes View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 18 2011 at 15:29
I definately read this thread title as being something else........

As you were.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2011 at 01:43
What's your opinion on this, Dean:

Can a copper speaker cable sound different than a steel speaker cable?

I'm too lazy to dig up the formulae, but I think that any difference would manifest in frequency ranges that are several orders of magnitude away from our range of hearing.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2011 at 01:50
Anyway, my strategy is to avoid cables completely. Hey Oliver, check out this one:



It's Sennheiser's flagship bluetooth headphone set, the M-550 Travel. THD: <0.1% at 1khz.



Edited by Mr ProgFreak - February 19 2011 at 01:51
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2011 at 02:16
Originally posted by Padraic Padraic wrote:

Ultimately what I want to do probably wouldn't fall under the term "portable", but my nettop has an S/PDIF out, which I would send to a small, good quality DAC (maybe something by Audophile Products, the "FUBAR"), and then to a good amp and good set of speakers - I'm not talking top of the line, my ears aren't good enough to justify it.


Don't say that, unless you have a real auditive deficiency.
Every music lover deserve a decent musical system, and a computer will not do the trick.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2011 at 02:20
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:


Anyway, my strategy is to avoid cables completely. Hey Oliver, check out this one:
It's Sennheiser's flagship bluetooth headphone set, the M-550 Travel. THD: <0.1% at 1khz.



I have to warn you that i don't want to go into painful polemic about hifi like i did in the past with a certain mike in regalia, who i hope is not in the corner.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2011 at 03:42
I know that you can't appreciate rational arguments, but hopefully there are many others around who do.Smile
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2011 at 04:05
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

What's your opinion on this, Dean:

Can a copper speaker cable sound different than a steel speaker cable?

I'm too lazy to dig up the formulae, but I think that any difference would manifest in frequency ranges that are several orders of magnitude away from our range of hearing.
I don't have an opinion because I don't know what it is and can't find anything with google.
 
I assume these cables must have some copper, silver, gold or aluminium in them or on them because steel is a poor conductor, which is the polar opposite of what you want in speaker cables. Steel is used in co-ax cables and overhead power cables for mechanical strength, the "conductor" in those cables is copper and aluminium respectively.
 
My uninformed opinion is probably unprintable.
 
I have OFC speaker leads myself - not because of any specific electrical characteristic of Oxygen Free Copper (which isn't any different to normal copper) or because they sounded better than normal copper (because, they don't), but because that's what they were made of when I bought them and they were cheap and more flexible than standard 10A twinflex..
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2011 at 05:24
^ I picked up the "steel cable" notion from Oliver's post ... apparently (according to Wikipedia) speaker wires are almost universally made of copper, the difference is mainly in the diameter or whether they're made up of a lot of individual strains or a few more solid ones.

Well, getting back to my previous point: My portable solution doesn't have any cables at all. Of course the bluetooth headset has some internal cables to connect the speakers to the amp, but the point is that they're sort of taken out of the equation, and the manufacturer of the headset (be it Nokia or Sennheiser) can choose the optimum solution ... and that also applies to matching speaker impedance to amplifier power.

Another interesting notion: You can use the combination of iPhone and bluetooth headset. Not only does it give you maximum usability because you can accept calls without either taking off the headset or touching the phone, but it also completely bypasses the D/A converters of the iPhone headphone jack. So if you use for example iPhone + Sennheiser M-550, the drawback is the compression via bluetooth, but apart from that in terms of audio quality it's pretty much completely implemented by the Sennheiser hardware.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2011 at 05:28
And one last thing about speaker wire from wikipedia:


"Roger Russell—a former engineer and speaker designer for McIntosh Labs—details how expensive speaker wire brand marketing misinforms consumers in his online essay called Speaker Wire - A History. He writes, "The industry has now reached the point where [wire] resistance and listening quality are not the issues any more, although listening claims may still be made....The strategy in selling these products is, in part, to appeal to those who are looking to impress others with something unique and expensive."[2]"

I liked that because IMO it really perfectly characterizes the audiophile movement.




Edited by Mr ProgFreak - February 19 2011 at 05:29
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2011 at 05:55
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

^ I picked up the "steel cable" notion from Oliver's post ... apparently (according to Wikipedia) speaker wires are almost universally made of copper, the difference is mainly in the diameter or whether they're made up of a lot of individual strains or a few more solid ones.
That's generally as far as my interest goes - thick cable for low transmission losses and multi-strand for flexibility (anyone who uses words like "skin effect" when talking audio will get short shrift from me)

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

Well, getting back to my previous point: My portable solution doesn't have any cables at all. Of course the bluetooth headset has some internal cables to connect the speakers to the amp, but the point is that they're sort of taken out of the equation, and the manufacturer of the headset (be it Nokia or Sennheiser) can choose the optimum solution ... and that also applies to matching speaker impedance to amplifier power.
That is the one key point - the total matching in the audio path - whether the manufacturer does it is another question. Historically one-box systems have not been good quality, the one-box being a cost factor rather than a quality factor. Active speakers (which essentially this is) have the potential of being great, but have had too many disadvantages to be practical.
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:


Another interesting notion: You can use the combination of iPhone and bluetooth headset. Not only does it give you maximum usability because you can accept calls without either taking off the headset or touching the phone, but it also completely bypasses the D/A converters of the iPhone headphone jack. So if you use for example iPhone + Sennheiser M-550, the drawback is the compression via bluetooth, but apart from that in terms of audio quality it's pretty much completely implemented by the Sennheiser hardware.
Not had much experience with bluetooth audio, I use a Linx B-Tube external speaker with my Nokia 5800 but experience far to many drop-outs for me to want to investigate the method further. I prefer to drive the B-Tube using the audio o/p of my Archos for portable use and only use the 5800 as a phone now.
 
In principle byassing the iPhone's DAC is only an advantage (audiophile wise) if the DAC in the headset/external speaker is better - my guess is they will be the same, similar or equivalent - I also suspect that the same codecs are used in high-end systems, but with more attention to the audio path after the conversion (powersupply decoupling, isolation from the digital section, track layout, components used, etc.). Sennheiser are audio experts, more over they are headphone experts - I trust them to get it right and would expect that their audio engineering exceeds Apple's by a long way.
 
The one attraction of your set-up for me is the hands-free aspect - if I could set that up for home studio use so I don't get my headphone lead tangled with guitar and mic leads that would be a bonus - unfortunately my PC doesn't have bluetooth, and the dongle I bought won't transmit A2DP.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2011 at 06:06
Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:

And one last thing about speaker wire from wikipedia:


"Roger Russell—a former engineer and speaker designer for McIntosh Labs—details how expensive speaker wire brand marketing misinforms consumers in his online essay called Speaker Wire - A History. He writes, "The industry has now reached the point where [wire] resistance and listening quality are not the issues any more, although listening claims may still be made....The strategy in selling these products is, in part, to appeal to those who are looking to impress others with something unique and expensive."[2]"

I liked that because IMO it really perfectly characterizes the audiophile movement.


the other one I like is from the Speaker Cable section:
 
"Even with poor-quality wire, an audible degradation of sound may not exist. Many supposedly audible differences in speaker wire can be attributed to listener bias or the placebo effect. Listener bias is enhanced in no small part by the popular manufacturers' practice of making claims about their products either with no valid engineering or scientific basis, or of no real-world significance. Many manufacturers catering to audiophiles (as well as those supplying less expensive retail markets) also make unmeasurable, if poetic, claims about their wire sounding open, dynamic, or smooth. To justify these claims, many cite electrical properties such as skin effect, characteristic impedance of the cable, or resonance, which are generally little understood by consumers. None of these has any measurable effect at audio frequencies, though each matters at radio frequencies[2]."
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2011 at 06:52
Originally posted by oliverstoned oliverstoned wrote:

Originally posted by Mr ProgFreak Mr ProgFreak wrote:


Anyway, my strategy is to avoid cables completely. Hey Oliver, check out this one:
It's Sennheiser's flagship bluetooth headphone set, the M-550 Travel. THD: <0.1% at 1khz.



I have to warn you that i don't want to go into painful polemic about hifi like i did in the past with a certain mike in regalia, who i hope is not in the corner.
LOL After all these years you should know by now that I (and probably Mike) will always be impressed by any set-up that is drop-dead gorgeous to look at, but neither of us will ever be swayed by any escoteric claims made for such a system. Your $1500 portable system is amazing, and I would love to own it (though not pay for it Wink) - however I'm not sure I'd be able to sit on a bus or train and listen to it;  nor could I justfy paying three times the price of my current set-up for little gain (I paid $400 for my little French Archos because it had a 250Gb harddrive and improved "docking" versatility over any equivalent portable media player).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 19 2011 at 10:39
^ Oh sure, the audiophile gear looks very cool. And I'm sure that it sounds perfect, too. I would also say that my suggestion (iPad + Nokia BH-505) doesn't sound as good. 

To me, especially when it comes to mobile listening solutions, the most important criterion is:

Does it sound really good? You know, lots of low end (if wanted), crisp treble, excellent imaging and transparency.

If the system meets these (subjective) criteria then I don't care if there are other system which - at 10x the price and 10x the hazzle - might sound even better. Plus, like I said, there's the hands-free cableless experience.

I've listened to a number of alternatives, mostly in-ear phones, but also earbuds and mid-sized Sennheiser headphones, fed through some Creative players, iPhone/iPad and an Android phone. The BH-505 sounds better than all these, and that's essentially what made me post it here. At first I was quite suspicious because of the compression that's used for the bluetooth transmission - but as I said above, it's not an issue when you use high-bitrate sources. Would it please Oliver? Doubtful - but I'm sure that the Sennheiser M-550 might do the trick - and it comes with the steep price tag that's required for audiophile acceptance.Smile


Edited by Mr ProgFreak - February 19 2011 at 10:42
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2011 at 01:01
For my portable device I use Monster Turbine Pro Gold in ear speakers....These are best sounding inear plugs I have found (so far). Here is my problem...I use the Zune music player and I just purchased the new Zune HD32GB device. I had the first gen Zune30GB.....The plugs sound excellent with very deep bass and a very nice mid range and high. On the new Zune HD, not the same and I fear it is due to lower output of the device. I have heard of these headphone amps but know nothing about them.
Do they work? If so because I would also like to purchase a pair of over the ear noise cancelling as I travel a lot...I don't like the Bose, so looking for something better...would spend about US$500 on headphones and not sure on the headphone amp...Are these big bulky amps or small portable?
 
Looking for advice
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2011 at 01:40
Yes head amp work!

I don't recommend noise cancelling HP, most of the time they sound bad (like the Senn ones). But the Senn HD 25 is perfectly isolated and it's a very solid pair of HP...

There are small HP amps, i recommend the RSA Mustang P51 or, even smaller, the Shadow:





Edited by oliverstoned - February 24 2011 at 01:43
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2011 at 01:52
You'd also need a quality mini/mini cable to connect your
source to your amp.

Cardas does a cheap one, which is musical:




If you want something more transparent and precise, go for an ALO:




Edited by oliverstoned - February 24 2011 at 01:53
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2011 at 06:53
^ the Shadow is underpowered for anything chunky like cans or any high-impedance headphones - it's designed for 16ohm lightweight headphones. Looking at the cct board I'm guessing it's Class-D - Samuels' doesn't seem to have a spec on the thing, but doing the maths suggests it can kick out 1W into 16ohms.
 
 
 
Noise cancelling headphones are never going to be audiophile, though they may approach hi-fidelity with the cancelling circuit turned off. Anything that electrically modifies the signal you hear is going to have a detrimental affect on the sound. However, if that detrimental effect is noticable in the environment you are using them in, then you probably don't need noise-cancelling but a good pair of enclosed 'phones with minimum spill (ie people can't hear what you are listening to when you're wearing them) - the general idea being if sound can't spill out then background noise can't get in either.
 
I use noise-cancelling 'phones in an environment with two industrial air-conditioners and a rack of equipment with 100s of 4" fans spinning away - the n-c 'phones block out that drone while still allowing me to hear the telephone ring or the fire-alarm go off (which fully enclosed 'phones would block).
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2011 at 07:46
^ that's why I prefer earcanal headphones - and the ones in the Nokia efficiently block noise in both directions.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2011 at 10:57
Awesome!!! Thanks oliverstoned and Dean.......'sounds' like I need one of these new fangled headphone amps!!LOL My Monster plugs just don't sound as well as I think they can......and if I get a higher end pair of cans then its a must. I seriously doubt the ZuneHD will have the output to power them efficiently.
I have never owned a pair of Senn phones, looking online there are a bunch of mfg I had not heard of....and at a pretty penny too...some over US$1000.00...yikes!!!
 
Dean if the Shadow is underpowered....what other palm sized amp should I look at?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: February 24 2011 at 11:07
The interesting question IMO is: What "can size" is required for a superb listening experience? I see no reason why in-ear headphones couldn't do the trick. Instead of first getting huge (expensive) speakers and then looking for an expensive mobile amp to power them, why not spend some money on some high quality  in-ear headphones which an iPhone or ZuneHD can easily power efficiently. There are many high-end options there, with manufacturers like Bose, Shure, Sennheiser, Klipsch, Monster, Etymotic etc..




Edited by Mr ProgFreak - February 24 2011 at 11:08
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