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moshkito 
Forum Senior Member 
Joined: January 04 2007 Location: Grok City Status: Offline Points: 17906 |
 Posted: September 20 2010 at 21:03 |
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J-Man ... we could start with your very own Avatar ... hehehe (couldn't help it!)
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Music is not just for listening ... it is for LIVING ... you got to feel it to know what's it about! Not being told!
www.pedrosena.com |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer 
Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: September 21 2010 at 12:29 |
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There's absolutely no reason why a Gauss curve should apply to the timeline of release year of the best prog albums.
If it did, that would mean that when checked from now, 2010, (and taking 1969 as the starting year of real prog) the best albums would cluster in the period around 1990, but when looked again in 2020 the best albums would have to be those around 1995, when obviously whatever happened between 2010 and 2020 can not have changed in any way the albums released around 1990 nor around 1995.
You should however find Gaussian curves in other features, for example the ratings. In principle you should expect to find most albums rated with 3 stars, a bit less albums with 2 or 4 stars (individually, when taken together 2+4 might outnumber the 3 stars) and even less in the 1 or 5 star regions.
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WalterDigsTunes
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 11 2007 Location: SanDiegoTijuana Status: Offline Points: 4373 |
Posted: September 21 2010 at 12:31 |
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Math fails and new music fails as well. Why are we even discussing this?
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator 
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14418 |
Posted: September 21 2010 at 12:40 |
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Let me quote myself: "The title is a joke, but the idea comes from a poll still open."
I'm wishing to discuss about why the golden period lasted only 5 years. Why those specific years and if there's a reason behind what happened later. It's not Math. Counting up the characteristics of the top 50 is neither statistics. Also because it's an indicator of PA people tastes, not necessarily about the absolute quality of the most rated albums and artists. But there's no doubt that something started to happen in the second half of the 70s and we had to wait for the 90s to have something back even if different. The proper question may be: what happened and why ? and if you were nearby, how did you live that situation? What younger people thinks ? what they really know about that period ? Feel free to ask different questions and/or give any kind of answers. I started the post without having in mind where to go. I hope we'll go somewhere otherwise the post will die on its own.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14418 |
Posted: September 21 2010 at 12:40 |
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I wrote post twice but I was meaning Thread, sorry.....
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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O666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2009 Location: TEHRAN-IRAN Status: Offline Points: 2619 |
Posted: September 21 2010 at 14:30 |
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When I tried to found relate between "Rating" and "Masterpiece",most of you attack to me and talked about "Subjective" things. Now you discuss about "Statical parameters"(objective!). You discover! in some statical datas "The Golden Years in Prog History" and ignore subjective side of "The Top Ten List". You looking for "Objective" reasons and discuss about that. First I want to know How PA create these lists?Who rate these albums? I remember one guy told me collabs rate value is higher than ordinary listener rate.Is it true? and if it true How much? Now back to topic. Octopus-4 show me interesting true about one important parameter of Masterpieces : TIME. Most of these albums released in 70's and after these 30/40 years they shine like brilliant. Just like "Wine" .Older wine is better than younger!! |
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14418 |
Posted: September 21 2010 at 15:41 |
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What happened in 1977 ? Was prog killed by Punk and NewWave or people was just tired of pretentious 20 minutes suites? Did genres other than prog have the same destiny?
When did the punk die? Wasn't about 1982? and the so-called new Wave? Is 5 years a sort of time limit ? "When a genre dies only the true art survives." Is it true or not? Did social changes in the western world influence this change? Are we still changing? Too many question marks. In my next reply I'll try to give some personal answers if possible. I'm on CET, so I won't be back before 10 to 12 hours since now.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Deleuze
Forum Senior Member
Joined: August 02 2010 Location: Qc Status: Offline Points: 193 |
Posted: September 21 2010 at 16:10 |
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Gerinski
Prog Reviewer
Joined: February 10 2010 Location: Barcelona Spain Status: Offline Points: 5154 |
Posted: September 21 2010 at 16:22 |
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There are probably no truths, just opinions, I'l give mine but note that I'm from '66 so I was only 11 by '77, although I was already into prog from my older brothers and family.
Although other PA members will argue this, I don't think the prog audience got tired of prog by itself. Nor do I think that proggers turned into punks by themselves. I think it was the result of mass manipulation by the music industry who realised that prog was not a very profitable style. This was just the same as has been happening in every life and industry sector, the factual powers manipulate our tastes, fashions, etc in order to make us consume more and more, and preferably the things with which they make most profit.
New Wave lasted longer than Punk. I don't think there's any precise limit but linked to the above, the life cycle of fashions gets shortened in order to increase consumption. New products must be launched continuosly to the market, the faster the better (and music is a business product as well).
The ultraliberalism of the western culture has no doubt influenced the course of things in music as in everything else.
I want to believe that the true art survives but it may be a very struggling survival, we see so many wonderful ancient art which has become relegated to little more than the world of scholars and fans, with classical music being a prime example. For sure it is surviving, but in which conditions...
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14418 |
Posted: September 21 2010 at 16:24 |
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Let's correct the sentence:
"Only true art can survive but it doesn't happen always"
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 21 2010 at 16:27 |
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The lists are calculated using weighted averages which takes into account the number of ratings and their relationship to the average number of ratings per album and the average rating of albums on this site. This is the same method that IMDB uses to create their top 250 films of all time. If you want to know more, look it up on Wikipedia.
We do not keep this a secret - you can read it on the chart page.
Anyone who wants to.
We do not keep this a secret - you can read about it on the forum New Members page.
Yes.
We do not keep this a secret - you can read it on the chart page.
Collaborator has 2x the rating.
If anyone rates an album without writing a review it scores 1
If anyone rates an album and writes a review it scores 5
If a collaborator writes a review it scores double a nomal review
We do not keep this a secret - you can read it on the chart page.
Edited by Dean - September 21 2010 at 16:29 |
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What?
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thellama73
Collaborator
Honorary Collaborator Joined: May 29 2006 Location: United States Status: Offline Points: 8368 |
Posted: September 21 2010 at 16:38 |
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Your technique of masking a secret, fiendish conspiracy by hiding in plain sight has worked brilliantly, Dean. Chesterton would be proud. |
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O666
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 20 2009 Location: TEHRAN-IRAN Status: Offline Points: 2619 |
Posted: September 22 2010 at 10:33 |
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tuxon
Forum Senior Member
Joined: September 21 2004 Location: plugged-in Status: Offline Points: 5502 |
Posted: September 22 2010 at 10:45 |
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partly because of the used algorhythm used for calculating the position on the charts, which favour a higher number of ratings.
personally I would drop the number of ratings if it exceeds the 200 ratings, after that the average rating should take over the importance over number of ratings. also I would drop the weighing of the rating sort (difference between review versus rating or even review by collab, or regular member difference is plain wrong and interferes with an accurate weighing system, which should be every rating counts as high as any other, its the number of ratings that ultimatly builds upo to a trustworthy average rating)
anyway. If I'm correct they use a weighted rating system, which should do the trick quite nicely Edited by tuxon - September 22 2010 at 10:50 |
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I'm always almost unlucky _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ Id5ZcnjXSZaSMFMC Id5LM2q2jfqz3YxT
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Dean
Special Collaborator
Retired Admin and Amateur Layabout Joined: May 13 2007 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 37575 |
Posted: September 22 2010 at 10:51 |
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How would we do that?
We have 253 collaborators on the site out of a total membership of 29,810 - even with a weighting of x2 we cannot begin to compete against a population 100 times larger.
If you consider the top 5 albums have 750-1000 ratings each and the vast majority of those ratings are from non-collaborators, (for example Selling England By the Pound has 986 ratings but only 98 collaborator reviews), so any bias we could attempt to create is easily beaten by the non-collab ratings.
Also, we cannot all agree on what is Prog so there is no way I, or anyone else, can convince 252 singleminded collaborators to bias a single album - it simply will not work.
Good
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What?
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14418 |
Posted: September 22 2010 at 10:55 |
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PA is an open site on which everybody can register, even those who don't know anything of prog music. Leaving the admins and designed experts the possibility to decide who include or not and allowing them more weight on their ratings is a way, probably not the best, to avoid seeing Lady Gaga in the top 10. Of course it looks like the admin group contains more King Crimson and Van der Graaf fans than the average of the world population, but this is a fact. |
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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CCVP
Prog Reviewer
Joined: September 15 2007 Location: Vitória, Brasil Status: Offline Points: 7971 |
Posted: September 22 2010 at 10:57 |
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14418 |
Posted: September 22 2010 at 10:58 |
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However, what I'd like to see is a discussion about the possible causes of some events or at least discover that no events happened. Discussing PA was not the target of this thread.
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14418 |
Posted: September 22 2010 at 11:01 |
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So are you indirectly supporting the idea that punk was an invention of the media ? Did it gain popularity thanks to Top of the Pops ? If so, was it part of a majors' plan to kill the dinosaurs and sell low-cost music instead?
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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octopus-4
Special Collaborator
RIO/Avant/Zeuhl,Neo & Post/Math Teams Joined: October 31 2006 Location: Italy Status: Offline Points: 14418 |
Posted: September 22 2010 at 11:02 |
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The previous message is referred to CCVP's "Punk Explained" that for a strange reason disappeared from the quote
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I stand with Roger Waters, I stand with Joan Baez, I stand with Victor Jara, I stand with Woody Guthrie. Music is revolution
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Masterpieces distribution don't follow Gauss curve
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J-Man wrote: